Size Powers

[dataweaver]

In my games, this Power group is misnamed. I don't have a better name for it; but the existing name is inadequate. The reason for this is that it includes at least three Powers (and possibly a fourth, although I'm still debating that one), and not all of them involve size. The three powers that it definitely has are Growth, Shrinking, and Density Increase; the common theme is that these are powers for which Always On doesn't work as advertised, if at all. (The potential fourth, Desolidification, is another power for which the discount granted by Always On does not, IMHO, adequately reflect the drawbacks inherent in being almost completely cut off from the physical world, permanently.)

[ghost-angel]

Re: Size Powers

 

Erm, the book only lists two Size Powers; Growth and Shrinking.

 

The rest are under Body-Affecting Powers.

 

 

Both categories are the same in 5th and 6th Editions.

[dataweaver]

Re: Size Powers

 

...which completely missed my point. HOUSE RULE: I'm expanding the "Size Powers" group to contain the subset of the Body-Affecting Powers for which applying the "Always On" Limitation doesn't work properly. This includes Growth and Shrinking, since you're supposed to use Size-based Templates instead of Always On Growth or Shrinking; but it also includes Density Increase (for the same reason), and - as I was saying - I'm thinking that Desolidification might also fit the bill, in that its drawbacks are more severe when made permanent than a -1/2 Limitation would indicate - especially since said limitation would be entirely offset by the Advantages that you'd need to take to make the Desolidification Persistent.

 

I'm not talking about how 6e is different than 5e, or even what 6e is like; I'm talking about how my games are going to differ from 6e.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Size Powers

 

First, read your OP again. That may be what you meant, but it's not what you said.

In my games' date=' this Power group is misnamed. I don't have a better name for it; but the existing name is inadequate. The reason for this is that it includes at least three Powers (and possibly a fourth, although I'm still debating that one), and not all of them involve size. The three powers that it definitely has are Growth, Shrinking, and Density Increase; the common theme is that these are powers for which Always On doesn't work as advertised, if at all. (The potential fourth, Desolidification, is another power for which the discount granted by Always On does not, IMHO, adequately reflect the drawbacks inherent in being almost completely cut off from the physical world, permanently.)[/quote']

Second, is there a question here? What's your point? I'm missing something.

[dataweaver]

Re: Size Powers

 

First' date=' read your OP again. That may be what you meant, but it's not what you said.[/quote']

Pardon me. I assumed that the "House Rule:" prefix on the title, and the "in my game..." opening words of the post, would make it sufficiently clear that my intent was to discuss a house rule. I won't make that mistake again.

 

Second' date=' is there a question here? What's your point? I'm missing something.[/quote']

My point: the essence of the "Size Powers" group is not really about size; it's about - well, if I could sum it up in one or two words, I'd have a more appropriate name for it. The common feature that caused those powers to be grouped together is the recommendation that you never take Always On with them: they represent the ability to change, and the capabilities that you'd have from "Always On Growth" are better handled by raising the appropriate Characteristics and taking Complications to represent the downsides. Other than the fact that it doesn't change your size, Density Increase fits this description exactly, and ought to be included.

 

So my first question is this: what would be a good name for the Power group that includes Growth, Shrinking, and Density Increase, and which addresses the inadequacy of using Always On with the included powers?

 

And my second question is this: are there any other powers that ought to be included?

[prestidigitator]

Re: Size Powers

 

Transient Powers?

[torchwolf]

Re: Size Powers

 

Mass Manipulation Powers? Density Control Powers?

 

Depending on how you define it, a variant use Damage Reduction and/or Damage Negation might represent some kind of partial effect of Desolidification, but that might muddy up the issue if you want a category of Powers as opposed to powers (game mechanics vs concept); I'm not entirely sure if you're intending to group game mechanics or concepts here.

 

Interesting idea, though.

[tesuji]

Re: Size Powers

 

Pardon me. I assumed that the "House Rule:" prefix on the title' date=' and the "[i']in my game[/i]..." opening words of the post, would make it sufficiently clear that my intent was to discuss a house rule. I won't make that mistake again.

 

 

My point: the essence of the "Size Powers" group is not really about size; it's about - well, if I could sum it up in one or two words, I'd have a more appropriate name for it. The common feature that caused those powers to be grouped together is the recommendation that you never take Always On with them: they represent the ability to change, and the capabilities that you'd have from "Always On Growth" are better handled by raising the appropriate Characteristics and taking Complications to represent the downsides. Other than the fact that it doesn't change your size, Density Increase fits this description exactly, and ought to be included.

 

So my first question is this: what would be a good name for the Power group that includes Growth, Shrinking, and Density Increase, and which addresses the inadequacy of using Always On with the included powers?

 

And my second question is this: are there any other powers that ought to be included?

 

Yu want to discuss a house rule, fine.

 

But the house rule seems to be just changing the name of a group of powers, which isn't really a rule at all.

 

Ok same questions as with any house rule:

 

What EFFECTS on play do you expect this change to create for your game?

 

Well?

 

Now if you were to ask me that question my answer would be "none. you dont buy powers "by group" you buy powers. no one is going to write "size affectinhg" or "body altering powers" on their character sheet." and so my response would be "why bother?"

 

I mean a house rule that doesn't have an in game effect hardly seems worth fussing with.

 

What gains come from your house rule that are prompting you to change? once we know what you are trying to gain, we can help answer whether or not this change is appropriate.

 

thanks

[dataweaver]

Re: Size Powers

 

The goal is to group similar mechanics. The catch with Desolid is that I don't think that you can duplicate its benefits without using Desolid. Thinking about it some more, I don't think that I will include it in the expanded Size Powers group; but I'll add a note under its Limitations saying that you don't have to remove the END cost or make the power Persistent before making it Always On: at least in the case of this one power, taking Always On automatically kills the END cost and renders the power Persistent.

[tesuji]

Re: Size Powers

 

The goal is to group similar mechanics.

Actually, isn't that the rule? Thats the "solution" its what you are doing. Thats not "why"?

 

What is gained? What will be different in play? In chargen? as a result of this change?

 

 

The catch with Desolid is that I don't think that you can duplicate its benefits without using Desolid. Thinking about it some more, I don't think that I will include it in the expanded Size Powers group; but I'll add a note under its Limitations saying that you don't have to remove the END cost or make the power Persistent before making it Always On: at least in the case of this one power, taking Always On automatically kills the END cost and renders the power Persistent.

 

So, if i get this right, you are giving desolid always on an automatic persistent and 0 end for no cost?

 

have such characters in your games so far seemed underpowered?

 

I mean, sure, i might consider the value of "always on" in regards to desolid and of course it might go up, depends on character build and how serious this is. But i think i would still make them buy 0 end and persistent.

 

I myself loathe having limitations that grant free benefits .I find it throws the active points comparisons, for what little they are worth, right out the window.

 

ymmv

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Size Powers

 

Pardon me. I assumed that the "House Rule:" prefix on the title' date=' and the "[i']in my game[/i]..." opening words of the post, would make it sufficiently clear that my intent was to discuss a house rule. I won't make that mistake again.

The "House Rule" tag doesn't show up in the thread (obviously I didn't see it on the outside, just like ghost-angel didn't on your other thread). Secondly, You said "In my games, this Power group is misnamed which makes it sound like you are saying that the default Power Group (not your made up one) is somehow misnamed for your use.

 

Overall, you first post is confusing. You give no reason for what you are doing, you don't distinguish between the actual rules and house rules and you don't actually seem to even be changing any rules, since the name doesn't matter. You cleared it up slightly in your responses, but not much. As GM you decide what's allowed and what's not. As such, disallowing "Always On" on some or all of the Body Affecting Powers as well as the Size Powers is totally up to you. You don't need to recategories anything, just say Powers X, Y, and Z can't have "Always On".

[dataweaver]

Re: Size Powers

 

The "House Rule" tag doesn't show up in the thread (obviously I didn't see it on the outside' date=' just like ghost-angel didn't on your other thread). Secondly, You said "In my games, [b']this Power group is misnamed[/b] which makes it sound like you are saying that the default Power Group (not your made up one) is somehow misnamed for your use.

Two points: first, I just admitted that I was mistaken in assuming that I had made myself sufficiently clear. I'm not going to be using those prefixes anymore, because apparently people don't see them. (I don't see why they're so easy to miss; but so be it.) As well, I was attempting to be concise for once, since I usually have a tendency to over-explain myself. Apparently, I have to over-explain myself here, or else someone's going to jump to conclusions about what I'm saying and then blame me for not being clear enough.

 

Second, I did not make up a new group, as you imply. I am indeed referring to what the book calls "Size Powers"; and I was trying to get the point across that once you get past the obvious conceptual similarity (i.e., both have to do with size changing), there's a deeper, and at least IMHO more meaningful similarity that the description in the book of the Size Powers group outright states and that has nothing to do with size at all. Would you like me to quote the relevant text?

 

And in fact, there's a third Power that behaves exactly like Growth and Shrinking in this regard. So Density Increase ought to be in this group. But once you've put Density Increase in the Size Powers group, the name "Size Powers" is now blatantly misleading; so I need a more suitable name for the group, to avoid the confusion caused by the existing name. So I asked for one.

 

As GM you decide what's allowed and what's not. As such' date=' disallowing "Always On" on some or all of the Body Affecting Powers as well as the Size Powers is totally up to you.[/quote']Obviously. Did you think I was asking permission to do this sort of thing? And besides, it isn't just a matter of disallowing "Always On"; it's also a matter of having a viable alternative to it. For instance, Shape Shift doesn't make much sense as an Always On ability. But Shape Shift also doesn't change your form into something that has different capabilities; so there's no need to address the change in capabilities that a hypothetical permanent version might consist of.

 

As to me being unclear about this: yes, I'm being unclear; in part, that's because I'm trying to work out exactly what I'm talking about. That's why I brought it up here: to get some help clarifying my thoughts on the matter, so that I can be more clear about it in the future. I didn't expect to get attacked for doing so.

 

For instance, I'm not sure at the moment about Shape Shift, despite my comments above.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Size Powers

 

Speaking As A Moderator: This thread's whole tone seems unnecessarily snarky. You're all just discussing game rules... not arguing over how to fix all the world's woes. Chill out.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Size Powers

 

Hmmm...

 

Mass-Volume Powers.

 

bit unwieldy, but it gets the point across, all the powers in the list will affect either the mass, volume or both of the user.

 

And FWIW, I probably simply missed the "House Rule" tag altogether and I for one won't hold it against you for being unclear (since if I found your post a bit confusing) or myself for being blind (because I was). Anyways, that's what I got.

[dataweaver]

Re: Size Powers

 

The Body Alteration Powers group mentions that three of those Powers - Growth, Shrinking, and Density Increase - alter the subject's mass. And these are also the three powers where the book explicitly says that if you're always in the altered state described by said power, you shouldn't take the power; just buy the traits describing that state directly. I suppose that you could shift the focus from size to mass; but that still seems to miss the point.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Size Powers

 

Well, if the point is to identify the single trait they all share it's Mass Alteration.

 

If you have a permanently altered Mass from the default you buy the elements as needed, not the Mass Alteration Powers (Shrinking, Growth, Density Increase) with Always On, etc.

 

The Ultimate Metamorph has several variants on those three, and Desolidification added in with a Density Decrease Option instead.

 

It's the best option I've seen so far. If that misses the point I don't know what point it is you're trying to make.

[JmOz]

Re: Size Powers

 

Going a bit off, but

 

Desolid could be built as follows

 

Tunneling/always refills tunnel

X/X Resistant Defence (aka Armor)

A number of severe limitations (Can take no other game action except movement, transparent)

1/2 gallon of handwavium concentrate

large pot, medium heat, a bit of eye of newt(optional)

 

Where the tunneling is equal to the number of inches of movement the character has that is aplicaple (Flight or running most likely), and the toughest material the character is likely to deal with

and where armor is equal to the job of protecting from the largest attack possible in the game

 

The tunneling allows for the movement through objects, the armor provides the protection, transparent is a lim for the armor that basicaly says "things go through me", a lim on Tunneling, probably -0 prevents damage being delt on walls and such