Limited Phenomena

[Rene]

I'm not sure if this already was discussed...

 

I just bought the "Until Superpowers Database." Wonderful book, congrats to Steve Long. Still, paging through it, I've found two little details that kinda bothered me.

 

The first is the discussed-to-death new Damage Shield rules. To see the powers built using them just cinched it for me. Those powers are now terribly overpriced for what they do. I'll keep ignoring the new Damage Shield rules in my games.

 

The second and not-so-discussed issue is the "Limited Phenomena" Limitation worthy -1/2. 40 points for 75% Damage Reduction that only work vs. fire or cold or sonics?!? Am I the only one that thinks this makes no sense?

 

You're sinking 40 pts (maybe more if you also buy some Limited Armor to make you really resistant to a certain type of attack) in something very infrequently used.

 

According to the Limited Powers Guidelines in FRED pg 194, -1/2 Lim is "Power loses a third of its effectiveness". So, does this mean that 2/3 of all energy attacks in a campaign are fire-based? Don't think so.

 

Only vs. Fire (or Cold or Sonics) sounds more like a -2 Limitation in superhero campaigns to me. -1 1/2 for lasers, maybe.

 

And what is worse, you can't put this kind of power in Frameworks, because it don't cost END. Some other overpriced powers infrequently used aren't so bad, because they usually go in Frameworks (for instance, Drain vs. Fire Powers is usually part of a suite of fire, water, air or cold powers).

 

OTOH, I could see Only vs Fire as -1/2 in a Fantasy Hero game full of fire magic or Only vs Lasers as -1/2 in some Star Hero games. But the UNTIL book seems primarily intended for Champions...

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Limited Phenomena

 

Originally posted by Rene

The second and not-so-discussed issue is the "Limited Phenomena" Limitation worthy -1/2. 40 points for 75% Damage Reduction that only work vs. fire or cold or sonics?!? Am I the only one that thinks this makes no sense?

 

You're sinking 40 pts (maybe more if you also buy some Limited Armor to make you really resistant to a certain type of attack) in something very infrequently used.

 

According to the Limited Powers Guidelines in FRED pg 194, -1/2 Lim is "Power loses a third of its effectiveness". So, does this mean that 2/3 of all energy attacks in a campaign are fire-based? Don't think so.

 

Only vs. Fire (or Cold or Sonics) sounds more like a -2 Limitation in superhero campaigns to me. -1 1/2 for lasers, maybe.

 

I'd be inclined to dovetail this with the points awarded forvulnerabilities. I think fire and heat is one of the more common energy attacks, and the frequency of the special effect should dictate the cost - a flat -1/2 doesn't do it. Even fire is overpriced IMO. I don't know about "2/3 of attacks" but this at least impies the character will be attacked by fire in one scenario out of three.

 

Originally posted by Rene

And what is worse, you can't put this kind of power in Frameworks, because it don't cost END. Some other overpriced powers infrequently used aren't so bad, because they usually go in Frameworks (for instance, Drain vs. Fire Powers is usually part of a suite of fire, water, air or cold powers).

 

It can go in multipowers (where it makes no sense) or VPP's (where it normally makes minimal sense, and the limitation should be reduced since it can be swapped out). But it can't go in an EC, which is where it most properly belongs. I'm on record as not liking the "must cost END to go in an EC" rule, and this is a classic example. Damage reduction limited to a specific special effect is clearly linked to the special effect in question, and maybe even an opposite special effect. In my campaign, "GM permission" to include this in an appropriate EC is pretty much guaranteed. Don't ban the construct because it can be abused. Deny it to the player who does, in fact, abuse it.

[Jeff]

Re: Limited Phenomena

 

Originally posted by Rene

The second and not-so-discussed issue is the "Limited Phenomena" Limitation worthy -1/2. 40 points for 75% Damage Reduction that only work vs. fire or cold or sonics?!? Am I the only one that thinks this makes no sense?

Nope.

And what is worse, you can't put this kind of power in Frameworks, because it don't cost END.

That's just a restriction on elemental controls, not VPP's and MP's too. The general framework powers restriction is just that special powers aren't normally allowed. But it is an obnoxious new restriction on elemental controls, especially since so many powers that are tightly based on a special effect are going to be no END ones, such as those conditional Damage Reductions or Armor. Between that and the "suck one, suck all" adjustment power clause, 5th edition EC's aren't useful for simulating all that much.

[Lord Liaden]

I'm the last one to say that someone should not disagree with the way something is built in a published Hero Games book. I think that this is an example of a judgement call as to how much of a cost break a Limitation should grant, especially when presented as an example for other people to follow. Steve has said often enough that he has no problem with people changing things they don't like for their campaigns, but it's become pretty clear that he won't alter an "official" writeup that he thinks is fair and reasonable because some folks don't agree with it.

 

I personally would up the Limitation for "Only vs. fire" to -1 in most supers campaigns, and probably to -1 1/2 for things like sonics. For a Champions campaign I would say that fire attacks are one of the more common special effects: not only are fire using characters a staple of super power sets, but normal people can have access to flame throwers or just molotov cocktails. Not to mention all the times that heroes have to save people in burning buildings and the like. Same for electricity; there's a lot of voltage lying around in modern or futuristic campaign settings, just waiting for clever supers to use against their opponents. For things like lasers or sonics I'd up the Limitation unless these are common weapons, as in a futuristic campaign like you suggested. But it's not the first time that I've disagreed with how Steve Long has built something.

 

That being said, the size of a Limitation that's based on campaign context is one of the easier things for individual GMs to change.

[CrosshairCollie]

I'm with Lord Liaden as far as common environmental effects like fire and electricity; I'd probably go to -1 on fire in my games, because I don't generally set things on fire randomly unless Blowtorch is the villain.

 

That said ... I'm still kind of iffy on the non-END powers not being ECable. I can simultaneously see why, and it simultaneously doesn't make a lot of sense to me. I can easily see why I wouldn't want someone to make an EC: Enhanced Sensory powers to get a squidload of cheap senses, for example, but Damage Reduction-with-limitation I'd probably allow (free-range Damage Reduction, less likely).

[BenKimball]

Originally posted by CrosshairCollie

... squidload ...

 

Excellent. Will add to my vocabulary.

 

Sorry, couldn't resist.

 

Cheers,

Ben

[bjbrown]

There is a way in which the limitation value makes sense, when compared to "Only to Protect Against Limited Type of Attack" which is a -1 Limitation for Desolidification. Since Desolidification has more uses than avoiding damage, and the only use for Damage Redution is avoiding damage, then the same limitation is less limiting on Damage Reduction than on Desolidification.

So 50% Resistant Damage Reduction (30) with Limited Phenonemon (-½) would cost 20 real points. The equivalent of twice the effect (100% Resistant Damage Reduction) would be Desolidification (40), Reduced END: Zero (+½), Persistent (+½), Only to Protect Against Limited Type of Attack (-1), which is 40 real points. That's good consistent math within the 5th Edition rules.

On the other hand, I had previously thought that Damage Reduction for limited special effects would be in the -1 (common like fire) to -2 (uncommon like sonics) range. So maybe that means there isn't enough of a limitation for a limited type of damage on either Damage Reduction or Desolidifcation.

[Lord Liaden]

Thanks, bj. Hero gamers should always fall back on the math when all else fails.

 

We may be looking at a design philosophy issue as to how much of a break characters should get on their defenses. When you think about it, since one of the stated design considerations of the HERO System is that defenses should be cheaper than the attacks they work against, characters are already pretty well protected for what they invest.

[Rene]

-1 makes a lot more sense than -1/2. But I still think it's a bit overpriced.

 

I agree that fire and eletricity are common special effects in superhero/modern games and that a character could face such perils roughly once every three sessions.

 

But my line of reasoning is simple: Limited Phenomena Defenses for half the cost of unmodified Armor and unmodified Damage Reduction still seems too expensive. Much better to buy standard Armor.

 

I still think -2 is a better value for fire and eletricity. For sonics and other more exotic effects, -2 1/2 or even -3. Yes, I know, everyone is free to make it so in their games. It's just that the examples in the official books seem just too off-base.

[prestidigitator]

Originally posted by Rene

-1 makes a lot more sense than -1/2. But I still think it's a bit overpriced.

 

I agree that fire and eletricity are common special effects in superhero/modern games and that a character could face such perils roughly once every three sessions.

 

But my line of reasoning is simple: Limited Phenomena Defenses for half the cost of unmodified Armor and unmodified Damage Reduction still seems too expensive. Much better to buy standard Armor.

 

I still think -2 is a better value for fire and eletricity. For sonics and other more exotic effects, -2 1/2 or even -3. Yes, I know, everyone is free to make it so in their games. It's just that the examples in the official books seem just too off-base.

 

I agree. Think about it: you are building a character with 75% Damage Reduction vs. Energy. That kicks ass! It means every attack that gets past your defenses is going to only be 1/4 as effective; a darn good defense, if you ask me!

 

Now, make it only effective against a limited Special Effect. There are a heck of a lot of Special Effects out there (especially for energy), and even if you are protected against fire, how many opponents aren't going to be able to say, "Oh. He's incredibly resistant to fire, apparently. Let me pull my lightning rod out of my...?"

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by CrosshairCollie

That said ... I'm still kind of iffy on the non-END powers not being ECable. I can simultaneously see why, and it simultaneously doesn't make a lot of sense to me. I can easily see why I wouldn't want someone to make an EC: Enhanced Sensory powers to get a squidload of cheap senses, for example, but Damage Reduction-with-limitation I'd probably allow (free-range Damage Reduction, less likely).

 

Enhanced Sensory Powers isn't a special effect. It's a category of powers. Similarly, EC: Attacks and EC: Defenses would not be legit IMC.

 

Damage reduction with no limits. I can't think of an apropriate special effect off the top of my head. hmmm...Amoeba powers or Stretching Powers might justify Physical. Energy? Can't think of one.

[Jeff]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

Enhanced Sensory Powers isn't a special effect. It's a category of powers. Similarly, EC: Attacks and EC: Defenses would not be legit IMC.

 

Damage reduction with no limits. I can't think of an apropriate special effect off the top of my head. hmmm...Amoeba powers or Stretching Powers might justify Physical. Energy? Can't think of one.

Energy Control, although that runs some risk of being too broad. Even then though, it might still have some modest limits, like not against magic or other things using ED only because PD would be even less appropriate.

 

Furthermore, plenty of powers would still be out - or by special GM permission, which is pretty close to what "out" means in HERO - just because they're special powers. Enhanced senses and the exotic defenses in particular fall into that category, and they seem to top people's lists of Horrible No-END EC Abuses. Thing is, they're already out on the basis of being special powers and (usually) on the basis of being unlikely part of a sufficiently tight special effect anyway.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Jeff

Furthermore, plenty of powers would still be out - or by special GM permission, which is pretty close to what "out" means in HERO - just because they're special powers. Enhanced senses and the exotic defenses in particular fall into that category, and they seem to top people's lists of Horrible No-END EC Abuses. Thing is, they're already out on the basis of being special powers and (usually) on the basis of being unlikely part of a sufficiently tight special effect anyway.

 

Well, "requires s[pecial GM permission" is the same "out" as EC powers that don't cost END, anyway. I had forgotten that "special powers" encompasses so many of the supposed problem powers. [And yet we see Flash Def in gadget pools all the time...]

[CrosshairCollie]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

Enhanced Sensory Powers isn't a special effect. It's a category of powers.

 

What about Daredevil and Wolverine? That's basically what I was thinking of with EC: Enhanced Senses. Daredevil especially ... 360 Radar, Tracking Smell, etc. etc. Geez.

 

Just out of curiosity, would you accept EC: Invulnerability, a la Juggernaut?

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by CrosshairCollie

What about Daredevil and Wolverine? That's basically what I was thinking of with EC: Enhanced Senses. Daredevil especially ... 360 Radar, Tracking Smell, etc. etc. Geez.

 

Just out of curiosity, would you accept EC: Invulnerability, a la Juggernaut?

 

I think that's the same issue. Should this reasonably be an EC. Is it a "special effect" (such as Fire or Weather Powers) or simply a categpry of powers (such as "EC: Defenses"). I think invulnerability, like enhanced senses, is a power (or suite of powers) and not a special effect.

 

Note that enhanced senses (and most defenses) are also "special powers" which require GM permission just to be placed in an EC.

 

I would be more inclined to allow an EC: Eagle Powers to take an "enhanced eyesight" slot, or an EC: Wolf Powers to take scent-related powers, but I don't believe "Enhanced Senses" itself is a special effect - it's the powers themselves.

 

On further thought, this is also awfully close to a racial EC. If "EC: Eagle Powers" is a legitimate EC, why don't eagles have it? Similarly, why don't animals buy their enhahnced senses through an EC: Enhanced Senses?

 

I think I would still allow an EC on dspecific animal powers (Wolf, Eagle, Spider, etc.). Enhanced Senses are a power unto themselves, not a special effect. I wouldn't allow "EC Defenses", EC Attacks" or "EC: Movement Powers", similarly.

[Rene]

Originally posted by prestidigitator

I agree. Think about it: you are building a character with 75% Damage Reduction vs. Energy. That kicks ass! It means every attack that gets past your defenses is going to only be 1/4 as effective; a darn good defense, if you ask me!

 

Now, make it only effective against a limited Special Effect. There are a heck of a lot of Special Effects out there (especially for energy), and even if you are protected against fire, how many opponents aren't going to be able to say, "Oh. He's incredibly resistant to fire, apparently. Let me pull my lightning rod out of my...?"

 

My thoughts exactly!

 

In Supers the problem is compounded because most characters have their special effects written all over them. Who will ever think to use fire against the Living Volcano? So their enemies won't even waste a Phase blasting him with fire, they'll use other kinds of attack.

 

And just think how hugely useful unmodified Damage Redution and Armor are. It requires superhuman willpower (+50 EGO Only to Resist Powergame Thinking?) to buy Limited Phenomena defenses for -1/2. It's such a tiny discount and it wrecks the power completely. Even -1 is too low.

 

Some power constructions perfectly adequate to some character concepts are hurt badly. No sane person will expend a huge amount of points in a Absorption vs. Cold Attacks (to up duration, to spread the points among several Chars. etc.) when you probably will never be hit by a Cold Attack, because only a moron will throw a ice blast against Mr. Blizzard.

 

In practical terms, the character only gets to use his Absorption if he finds a background hazzard and throws himself into it. It's a LOT less useful than all-purpose Energy Absorption.