Magic System: Winding

[Killer Shrike]

I'm hashing out a new target number based magic system I'm currently calling Winding for Esoterica. It's derived from the Warhammer 2e Magic System conversion I did a few years ago, but as I didn't need to adhere to any source material I feel that this is a cleaner and more broadly usable model.

 

The final nail is not yet in the coffin, so reasonable suggestions and thoughts will be considered for inclusion.

 

Thanks!

[Mr. R]

Re: Magic System: Winding

 

Just took a look at it.

 

I like the colours idea. Too often we go with the 4(5) elements and its nice to see a different perspective.

 

I am just curious about the power level, because it seems like rolling alot of dice is real bad so most spells will be low powered.

 

Also maybe some sort of ritual rules, so that a cabal of wizards can cast that Anti-Undead sphere that blankets the whole city.

 

On the whole though, nice.

I may steal the idea for Al-Qadim for the shiar magic as the basics fit well.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Magic System: Winding

 

I am just curious about the power level, because it seems like rolling alot of dice is real bad so most spells will be low powered.

 

That's up to the player of such a character. They must constantly weigh the risk of failure with the risk of Vim-storms. It's the same basic dramatic tension used in Ars Magica and Mage the Ascension. If you stay in your safe zone, you are generally going to be ok, but if you cut loose there are dangers.

 

Also maybe some sort of ritual rules, so that a cabal of wizards can cast that Anti-Undead sphere that blankets the whole city.

I have other systems that cater to group casting. This one is more about individuality and personal risks.

 

A GM could add group casting easily via a die mechanic if they like; a Ritual Die or whatever. Or a reroll. Or the Vim-touched effect of canceling a match for purposes of Vim-storm determination. The Magic die concept is very flexible for adding nuances.

 

I may steal the idea for Al-Qadim for the shiar magic as the basics fit well.

It's been over two decades since I looked at Al'Qadim, but wouldn't this be a better fit for them?

 

http://www.killershrike.info/GenericaMagicSystemElementalism.ashx

[Mr. R]

Re: Magic System: Winding

 

That is actually a good fit for the elementalist and sorcerors. Shairs are genie summoners and cast their spells by having their genie servant find it and bring it back for them to cast.

 

So the Shair gets a certain amount of dice and uses it to sent their servant to gather a spell. The more powerful the spell the higher the TN so they need to spend more dice. Instead of vim storms, doubles turn into delays in their servant getting back to them, more doubles longer delays.

 

So they can be guaranteed to get that low powered spell, but that high powered nasty one may take a bit of time.

[Panpiper]

Re: Magic System: Winding

 

I'd really like to see a sample character of your own creation using Winding magic. I started giving it a shot myself but got sidetracked creating an additional power that I thought might fit well for such a spellcaster. "Persistence of Vim".

 

Persistence of Vim

6 Points Real Cost, 14 Points Active. 1PD/1ED Resistant, 3 active points, Does not protect Vs. the first point of body or stun from each separate increment of damage taken [-1/2], Does not work over hit locations covered with any resistant armor (-1), Special effects reveal character's mood (-1/4)

One DC of Damage Negation Physical, 5 active points, Does not work over hit locations covered with any resistant armor (-1), Special effects reveal character's mood (-1/4)

One DC of Damage Negation Energy, 5 active points, Does not work over hit locations covered with any resistant armor (-1), Special effects reveal character's mood (-1/4)

One point of Longevity, Special effects reveal character's mood (-1/4)

 

Description: Persistence of Vim is a persistent effect around the character that mitigates damage, an alternative to wearing armor for a caster of Winding magics. Vim energies swirling about the character reduce the damage that might otherwise harm the character. Constant use of Winding magic has created a small but persistent vortex of Vim energy swirling about and within the character, they are slowly becoming one with the Vim. This interferes with objects near to the character, the more vigorously the object would 'interact' with the character, the more vigorously the Vim reacts. This has little actual effect on normal interaction with objects such as eating or brushing hair, but a weapon or other attack will find it's effect mitigated by the Vim vortex. This Vim is constantly visible, it cannot be turned off, the nature of the visible effect changing upon the mood of the character. The character cannot stop this revealing effect upon their internal state unless they can actually change their internal emotional state (ego roll with appropriate modifiers). Characters in close proximity may experience minor environmental effects from this, depending upon the nature and intensity of the emotions. May be purchased in as many increments as the GM allows with the effects stacking (only the first point of body/stun penetrates the resistant defense, regardless of the levels of Persistence of Vim purchased). Note that five levels of Persistence of Vim means the character has effectively become one with the Vim. They will live for as long as Vim exists in the universe, assuming their physical vessel is not otherwise destroyed (they can still be 'killed, this just means they no longer age).

 

An unconcealable distinctive looks complication is obligatory when purchasing Persistence of Vim (and depending upon the campaigns attitude towards magic users, this could result in other complications). (At the GM's discretion, wearing full plate with the visor down might hide the effect by containing it, but of course the plate would cancel the protective benefit.) If the player has purchased Persistence of Vim after play has started, they get the complication anyway, even though it exceeds the number of complications they are required to have. At their GM's discretion, they could work within the game to justify 'paying off' old complications with the points of the new ones.

 

Actually, I'm thinking of adding grades to this spell effect that would slowly add a few extra effects (mental defenses, extra life support effects) as it climbed in power.

 

By the way, if someone would 'proof' the build of this talent, I'd appreciate it. I used to be a wizard of Hero System, but that was fifteen years ago. My memory from back then is rusty, and my reading of the current rules is so far sparse.

 

A preliminary stab at making this progressive, rather than people simply stacking the first effects:

 

Persistence of Vim (First Level)

6 Points Real Cost, 14 Points Active.

-1PD/1ED Resistant, 3 active points, Does not protect Vs. the first point of body or stun from each separate increment of damage taken [-1/2], Does not work over hit locations covered with any resistant armor (-1), Special effects reveal character's mood (-1/4)

-One DC of Damage Negation Physical, 5 active points, Does not work over hit locations covered with any resistant armor (-1), Special effects reveal character's mood (-1/4)

-One DC of Damage Negation Energy, 5 active points, Does not work over hit locations covered with any resistant armor (-1), Special effects reveal character's mood (-1/4)

-One point of Longevity (200 years), 1 active point, Special effects reveal character's mood (-1/4)

 

Persistence of Vim (Second Level)

17 Points Real Cost, 38 Points Active.

-2PD/2ED Resistant, 6 active points, Does not protect Vs. the first point of body or stun from each separate increment of damage taken [-1/2], Does not work over hit locations covered with any resistant armor (-1), Special effects reveal character's mood (-1/4)

-Two DC of Damage Negation 'Physical', 10 active points, Does not work over hit locations covered with any resistant armor (-1), Special effects reveal character's mood (-1/4)

-Two DC of Damage Negation 'Energy', 10 active points, Does not work over hit locations covered with any resistant armor (-1), Special effects reveal character's mood (-1/4)

-Two DC of Damage Negation 'Mental', 10 active points, Does not work over hit locations covered with any resistant armor (-1), Special effects reveal character's mood (-1/4)

-Two points of Longevity (400 years), 2 active points, Special effects reveal character's mood (-1/4)

 

Persistence of Vim (Third Level)

29 Points Real Cost, 61 Points Active.

-3PD/3ED Resistant, 9 active points, Does not protect Vs. the first point of body or stun from each separate increment of damage taken [-1/2], Does not work over hit locations covered with any resistant armor (-1), Special effects reveal character's mood (-1/4)

-Three DC of Damage Negation 'Physical', 15 active points, Does not work over hit locations covered with any resistant armor (-1), Special effects reveal character's mood (-1/4)

-Three DC of Damage Negation 'Energy', 15 active points, Does not work over hit locations covered with any resistant armor (-1), Special effects reveal character's mood (-1/4)

-Three DC of Damage Negation 'Mental', 15 active points, Does not work over hit locations covered with any resistant armor (-1), Special effects reveal character's mood (-1/4)

-Three points of Longevity (800 years), 3 active points, Special effects reveal character's mood (-1/4)

-Life support: Intense heat and cold, 4 active points, Special effects reveal character's mood (-1/4)

 

Etc...

What do you think, should I continue this to level five or six?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Magic System: Winding

 

First off, I like the feel, including the "magic die" mechanic.

 

Some thoughts off the cuff:

 

I'm trying to wrap my head around the costing. The character is effectively paying 20 points per VPP increment (15 for the VPP itself, plus 5 for the magic die). They get a variant RSR activation roll with a side effect, applied to a Cosmic VPP. Absent any limitations, the Cosmic VPP would cost 10 + 15 = 25 per level, with no required skill purchase. Is the effective -1/2 limitation equitable for the restrictions associated with the VP, especially when the powers within the VPP get no real cost reduction for these limitations? It may be something best worked out after some actual play experience.

 

At lower power (and lower magic dice), the side effects aren't that scary (except that I'm uncertain how to interpret that "tear to another dimension" result, other than that it seems to require a lot of GM ad lib work). At higher power, this may act as a brake on the pace of power gain as the Winder buys more advantaged magic dice to reduce the likelihood of large numbers of matches.

 

Looking at this from a "player manipulation" perspective, if I have the dice to make it feasible (and I grant it's a LOT of dice, but I suspect you would not have the rule if you did not expect it to be used), 'practicing' spells rolling lots of dice to try for 7+ doubles. These effects look like they could be at least as beneficial as detrimental (especially as the caster controls which Lore he will gain skill in if he rolls a 5).

 

In respect of #1 - 4, how can the caster roll any doubles, much less 7+, if all his dice are Vim-Touched? It also looks like there may initially have been a plan to roll randomly for the type of complication added.

 

Given the change to VPP's in 6e, any thoughts on allowing the VPP to have a control cost allowing AP spells different from the size of the pool? Given the nature of the system, using a lot of lower powered spells may be its own reward anyway, especially a lot of low power Constant spells.

 

What happens if my four dice come up two pairs, say 2 5's and 2 3's? Do I roll twice on the "two matches" table, or something else? With larger numbers of dice, other possibilities (three of a kind + 2 pair, for example) become possible. Do I get the combined effect of all of the matches (which might better discourage the "roll lots of dice under controlled conditions" gamble)?

[Panpiper]

Re: Magic System: Winding

 

So, would I be correct in assuming that this character would have roughly a 50% chance of successfully casting a 30 active point spell when Not In The 'Tween?

 

This is 'not' a particularly effective combat character, but has enormous flexibility outside of combat and could be a lot of fun to play. (175 pts 6th Ed.)

 

'Scheherazade' the Vim Dancer (Female)

 

8 Str -2

11 Dex 2

10 Con

10 Body

13 Int 3

10 Ego

13 Pre 3

3 Ocv

3 Dcv

3 Omcv

3 Omdv

2 PD

2 ED

3 Spd 10

6 Rec 2

30 End 2

20 Stun

Stats total: 20

 

3 Striking Appearance +1 Exceptional and 'Unearthly' Beauty

2 PS: Dancer

3 Seduction 13-

3 Persuasion 13-

2 KS: Winding ways...

2 KS: Best Dance Venues

Non-magic skills: 18

 

5 Lore: * Red Winds: Energy Magic

5 Lore: * Orange Winds: Life Magic

5 Lore: * Blue Winds: Divination Magic

5 Lore: * Violet Winds: Travel Magic

60 Winding to Fourth Rank: Increases Variable Power Pool to 40 Pool

20 Magic Die: 4d6

4 +4 Mastery of Vim Lightning Spell (2d6 RKA Energy)

4 +2 OCV with Vim Lightning

Magic total: 108

 

Persistence of Vim (Third Level)

29 Points Real Cost, 61 Points Active.

-3PD/3ED Resistant, 9 active points, Does not protect Vs. the first point of body or stun from each separate increment of damage taken [-1/2], Does not work over hit locations covered with any resistant armor (-1), Special effects reveal character's mood (-1/4)

-Three DC of Damage Negation 'Physical', 15 active points, Does not work over hit locations covered with any resistant armor (-1), Special effects reveal character's mood (-1/4)

-Three DC of Damage Negation 'Energy', 15 active points, Does not work over hit locations covered with any resistant armor (-1), Special effects reveal character's mood (-1/4)

-Three DC of Damage Negation 'Mental', 15 active points, Does not work over hit locations covered with any resistant armor (-1), Special effects reveal character's mood (-1/4)

-Three points of Longevity (800 years), 3 active points, Special effects reveal character's mood (-1/4)

-Life support: Intense heat and cold, 4 active points, Special effects reveal character's mood (-1/4)

 

 

Distinctive Feature: Persistence of Vim Effect plus Stunningly Beautiful

20pts Distinctive Feature: Unconcealable, Always Noticed, Major Reaction

 

Social Limitation: Stunningly Beautiful

Very Frequently, Minor 15pts.

 

Adventurous And Funloving

Common, Strong 15pts.

 

Tends to wear 'very' little clothing (harem suit, belly dancing outfit). ;-)

 

Full character background, in case anyone might be intrigued, can be found here:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1934349&postcount=11

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Magic System: Winding

 

That is actually a good fit for the elementalist and sorcerors. Shairs are genie summoners and cast their spells by having their genie servant find it and bring it back for them to cast.

 

So the Shair gets a certain amount of dice and uses it to sent their servant to gather a spell. The more powerful the spell the higher the TN so they need to spend more dice. Instead of vim storms, doubles turn into delays in their servant getting back to them, more doubles longer delays.

 

So they can be guaranteed to get that low powered spell, but that high powered nasty one may take a bit of time.

 

Hmm...ok. Good idea!

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Magic System: Winding

 

Ill respond to the other posts tonite or tomorrow as time allows.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Magic System: Winding

 

I'd really like to see a sample character of your own creation using Winding magic. I started giving it a shot myself but got sidetracked creating an additional power that I thought might fit well for such a spellcaster. "Persistence of Vim".

 

Persistence of Vim

 

Some Winders develop the ability to channel a controlled vortex of Vim about their person which offers them a degree of protection from harm but increases the risk of Vim-storms.

 

While using this effect the Winder is surrounded by swirling colored ephemera of the Vim, and the air around them is charged with magical potential that solidifies to turn aside blows, hostile magic, and other attacks. However the energies are volatile, and increases the chances that the Winder will draw too much power from the Winds and create a Vim-storm; when rolling their Magic dice while this effect is active the Winder must roll an extra die that does not add to the total effect but does count for matches to determine if a Vim-storm occurs.

 

Persistence of Vim (5e); base effect:

 

Force Field (1 PD/1 ED/1 Power Defense/1 Flash Defense: Hearing Group/1 Flash Defense: Sight Group), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Persistent (+1/2) (10 Active Points); Side Effects, Always On (Only When Using Winding Magic; While this effect is active the Winder must roll an additional Magic die when using their Winding magic; this die does not add to the effect but does count for purposes of determining Vim-storms; -1/2); Real Cost: 7

 

The defense levels of Persistence of Vim must be raised together (i.e. to get to 2 PD the effect must also have 2 ED, 2 PowD, 2 FD (Hearing) and 2 FD (Sight)). The defense level cannot exceed the Winders VPP Pool total divided by 10; thus a Winder with 30 Pool and 3 Magic dice could also have a 3 PD / 3 ED / 3 PowD / 3 FD (Hearing) and 3 FD (Sight) Persistence of Vim ability if they chose to invest the points in it.

 

---------------------

 

One with the Vim

 

Some Winders have become so exposed to Vim that they have been permanently changed by it. A Winder that has become Vim-touched can, with GM permission, purchase Life Support (Longevity) up to any level the GM allows (at full normal cost).

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Magic System: Winding

 

First off, I like the feel, including the "magic die" mechanic.

 

Some thoughts off the cuff:

 

I'm trying to wrap my head around the costing. The character is effectively paying 20 points per VPP increment (15 for the VPP itself, plus 5 for the magic die). They get a variant RSR activation roll with a side effect, applied to a Cosmic VPP. Absent any limitations, the Cosmic VPP would cost 10 + 15 = 25 per level, with no required skill purchase. Is the effective -1/2 limitation equitable for the restrictions associated with the VP, especially when the powers within the VPP get no real cost reduction for these limitations? It may be something best worked out after some actual play experience.

You forgot the Lore talent costs as well; a full-blown Winder that can do anything has put another 40 points into the Lore talents.

 

Basically, if a GM allows a wide-open Cosmic Power Pool with no restrictions in a campaign, this (and many other magic systems) aren't "mathically" competitive, to coin a phrase.

 

The assumption is, this is not the case in the majority of campaigns, and its definitely not the case in the World of Generica setting the system is really written for.

 

Another way of looking at it is that its a way of allowing the effect of a Cosmic VPP but boxing it in using several techniques I call "control factors".

 

The first is a soft access control coupled with an opportunity cost control; the required Lore talents. The required Magic dice are also an opportunity cost control. The next is a reliability control; spells wont always be cast successfully. The most obvious is an impact control; the vim-storm makes casting risky.

 

 

Anyway, the summary of all that is, the cost isn't intended to be discounted; the extra expenses are factored into the balancing of the system.

 

 

At lower power (and lower magic dice), the side effects aren't that scary (except that I'm uncertain how to interpret that "tear to another dimension" result, other than that it seems to require a lot of GM ad lib work).

 

The setting Winding is designed for is the Realm of Esoterica, which is sort of a mashup between Planescape and Spelljammer. Planar gates aka conduits are a big part of the setting.

 

Ill finish up later, late for work...

[Panpiper]

Re: Magic System: Winding

 

I really like your Winding magic system. But I prefer 'my' version of 'Persistence of Vim'. ;-)

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Magic System: Winding

 

At higher power, this may act as a brake on the pace of power gain as the Winder buys more advantaged magic dice to reduce the likelihood of large numbers of matches.

 

Looking at this from a "player manipulation" perspective, if I have the dice to make it feasible (and I grant it's a LOT of dice, but I suspect you would not have the rule if you did not expect it to be used), 'practicing' spells rolling lots of dice to try for 7+ doubles. These effects look like they could be at least as beneficial as detrimental (especially as the caster controls which Lore he will gain skill in if he rolls a 5).

Well...

 

A) if the GM is willing to allow it, then sure there is nothing preventing a player from sitting around rolling lots of dice for their character in an attempt to game the system.

 

some of the 7 match effects are semi-beneficial, but they all have a cost -- you lose something to gain something. At the lowest end you gain a Disadvantage. In the middle you suffer a potentially lethal combat disadvantage and lose a Lore talent and which one you lose is not up to you. The final level you suffer an extremely dangerous coma effect for a minimum of 1 hour, and "gain" an effect that is circumstantially a benefit or a detriment; for characters that spend most of their time out of the 'Tween its beneficial but for characters that spend most of their time in the 'Tween its a detriment as they lose the extra "Tween die".

 

C) The 7 matches chart also procs a 2 match and a 6 match effect as well. Even if a GM allowed it, a player attempting to min / max casting aimless spells in an attempt to get 7 matches will statistically kill themselves and possibly bystanders in the process. The 6 match chart is very dangerous; not to mention all the lesser effects they'd likely generate in the process. In fact, its even possible for a Winder to get a 7 match, but be killed by the automatic 6 match effect before the 7 match chart resolves.

 

 

In respect of #1 - 4, how can the caster roll any doubles, much less 7+, if all his dice are Vim-Touched? It also looks like there may initially have been a plan to roll randomly for the type of complication added.

Good catch. I built the chart first and flushed out the abilities as I went. The Vim-touched dice originally had a different effect other than canceling matches, but after it was in place I took feedback from WilyQ that since the Vim-storm worked so much like botches in Mage that I should include an effect that cancels out matches. I chose Vim-touched dice as the vehicle for that, and etc.

 

I'll update the chart to remove the reroll note. Thanks!

 

Given the change to VPP's in 6e, any thoughts on allowing the VPP to have a control cost allowing AP spells different from the size of the pool? Given the nature of the system, using a lot of lower powered spells may be its own reward anyway, especially a lot of low power Constant spells.

I haven't had time to read all of the 6e books yet, and I haven't made it to Frameworks yet.

 

With the exception of a few practice character conversions I did to focus on a some specific rule changes, my goal is to internalize all of 6e before I start doing 6e material so that I don't overlook something and make a mistake based upon false carryover assumptions.

 

Once I've got a handle on the nuances of 6e, I plan to start converting specific material over. I'm spending most of my content time supporting the World of Generica effort on http://www.killershrike.info , so that material (which includes Winding) will likely be the first to benefit.

 

What happens if my four dice come up two pairs, say 2 5's and 2 3's? Do I roll twice on the "two matches" table, or something else? With larger numbers of dice, other possibilities (three of a kind + 2 pair, for example) become possible. Do I get the combined effect of all of the matches (which might better discourage the "roll lots of dice under controlled conditions" gamble)?

Each set of matches counts, and generates a roll. So two pairs would generate two rolls on the 2 match chart. I'll make this more clear in the text.

 

 

I initially had the idea that additional matches could instead result in rolling on the worst chart and adding +1 to it for each additional match, which would push the effect up into a worse place (I tried to order the charts so that 1 is the mildest and 6 is the worst for each chart). However the explanation of how it would work (similar to 8+ matches) is awkward so I backed off on it. I suppose I could write it up as a variant.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Magic System: Winding

 

I really like your Winding magic system. But I prefer 'my' version of 'Persistence of Vim'. ;-)

 

Fair enough. The text and complexity to describe it outweighs the benefit of the effect for me, but its all customizable; its a buffet line - take what you like and leave the rest behind the sneeze shields.

 

 

Also, though I would go in a different direction, if a player wanted a version such as you've defined I would probably allow it.

 

 

I really don't trust Damage Negation; Reduced Negation is simply too effective against it and makes DN an unreliable option for me.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Magic System: Winding

 

Persistence of Vim

 

Some Winders develop the ability to channel a controlled vortex of Vim about their person which offers them a degree of protection from harm but increases the risk of Vim-storms.

 

While using this effect the Winder is surrounded by swirling colored ephemera of the Vim, and the air around them is charged with magical potential that solidifies to turn aside blows, hostile magic, and other attacks. However the energies are volatile, and increases the chances that the Winder will draw too much power from the Winds and create a Vim-storm; when rolling their Magic dice while this effect is active the Winder must roll an extra die that does not add to the total effect but does count for matches to determine if a Vim-storm occurs.

 

Persistence of Vim (5e); base effect:

 

Force Field (1 PD/1 ED/1 Power Defense/1 Flash Defense: Hearing Group/1 Flash Defense: Sight Group), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Persistent (+1/2) (10 Active Points); Side Effects, Always On (Only When Using Winding Magic; While this effect is active the Winder must roll an additional Magic die when using their Winding magic; this die does not add to the effect but does count for purposes of determining Vim-storms; -1/2); Real Cost: 7

 

The defense levels of Persistence of Vim must be raised together (i.e. to get to 2 PD the effect must also have 2 ED, 2 PowD, 2 FD (Hearing) and 2 FD (Sight)). The defense level cannot exceed the Winders VPP Pool total divided by 10; thus a Winder with 30 Pool and 3 Magic dice could also have a 3 PD / 3 ED / 3 PowD / 3 FD (Hearing) and 3 FD (Sight) Persistence of Vim ability if they chose to invest the points in it.

 

---------------------

 

One with the Vim

 

Some Winders have become so exposed to Vim that they have been permanently changed by it. A Winder that has become Vim-touched can, with GM permission, purchase Life Support (Longevity) up to any level the GM allows (at full normal cost).

 

These abilities have been appended to the document.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Magic System: Winding

 

{Snip character}

I didn't math check this, but it reads great. Very cool character. I wouldn't call her not combat capable. Her persistence of Vim and spell casting capabilities should allow her to be pretty effective. Her CV is low, but she can use AoE effects to compensate. She definitely doesnt want to go toe to toe, but she should be able to use her access to Travel effects to stay mobile. Teleportation would be a great effect for her -- I might try to loosen up a few points and invest in a mastery of a t-port spell to make sure she can reliably stay out of reach. Alternately if you want her to stay out of direct confrontations all together, Travel and Energy should both give her plenty of SFX options for some kind of Desolid effect; she could be a Kitty Pride like character, dancing her way through the thick of dangerous situations.

 

 

 

So, would I be correct in assuming that this character would have roughly a 50% chance of successfully casting a 30 active point spell when Not In The 'Tween?

 

She would roll 3d6; the TN for a 30 AP effect would be 10. She will succeed 62.5% of the time with no other variables in play.

 

For her, Vim Lightning has a TN of 6, so she will succeed 95% of the time out of the Vim if she rolls all 3 dice available to her and 72% of the time if she only rolls 2 dice, and 17% of the time if she only rolls one. If she is in the 'Tween she can reliably (72%) roll only one of her own Magic dice plus the 'Tween die for this spell. Its very reliable for her. In fact, if she had a Lore (Red Wind) die as well, she could roll only 1d6 and succeed 33% of the time as the reroll gives you two chances at a "6"; I don't have time to work the probabilities on the other dice levels, but suffice to say it would be a smart investment if you think you'll be doing a lot of Energy based effects.

 

If she is out of the 'Tween and trying to cast a spell at her max tolerance of 40 AP, the TN would be 13 and she would have only a 26% chance of casting on the 3d6 available to her. In the 'Tween however that would jump to 5d6 and a 90% chance.

 

Conceptually, in the 'Tween the caster is surrounded by raw Vim and magic is "easier" but also "riskier". Out of the 'Tween magic is harder as they are not in such a magic rich environment, but its also overall less risky as fewer dice means less risk of a Vim-storm and less chance for a high magnitude Vim-storm. It's a mild kind of "ambiance" based magic.

 

 

Mastery is a key consideration, as I see you've grok'd. For the investment of 1 character point a Winder cancels the TN of 3 Active Points of effect.

 

There is very definitely a mathematical underpinning to this system, it is deliberate, and a canny player will be smart about it. To wit, the average roll of 1d6 is 3.5, a standard effect die is 3, and 10 / 3 = 3.33~. Every 10 AP requires a 1d6 Magic die; thus there is a small statistical curve in the character's favor as they grow their VPP of 3.5-3.33 = .17; additional dice effects beyond the basic Magic dice give a player opportunities to gain a larger advantage overall but isn't very efficient from the perspective of being reliable with a particular subset of spells.

 

On the other hand each point of Mastery for a given spell effectively cancels 3 Active Points of effect for purposes of determining the TN. Thus your dancer with her 4 point mastery of Vim Lightning casts Vim Lightning as if it has 18 AP rather than the 30 AP it really has. Mathematically, if the 4 points of mastery just added to the effect dice it would work out the same. I chose to implement it as a minus to the target number because I wanted to keep the focus on the TN, and because there is already a lot of stuff going on around the magic effect dice but it really doesn't matter which side of the equation you handle it on.

 

At any rate, Winders that have invested in mastering a few key spells will be much more reliable, and are better at managing their risk of Vim-storms as they will roll fewer dice to accomplish their mastered spells.

[Panpiper]

Re: Magic System: Winding

 

Were I actually playing this character instead of just wishing I could play this character... ;-) (I do finally have a game starting in which I am playing but it is a relatively low magic S&S game and I have a godzilla of a melee character already approved.)

 

So, back to, ...were I playing "Sheherazade; the Vim Dancer" in a game, I expect the very first five XP would be spent on buying a Vim-touched Dice. Then it is a toss up as to whether to spend a few points on critical spell masteries, such as the ideas you mentioned, or a couple or few more OCV levels for Vim Lightning. I expect before I ever started to save up for a fifth rank and an additional 'magic' die, I would have purchased already a lore die for any of the lores I was intending to use regularly at any decent power level. I'm not sure about Channeling Dice, as the +1 phase is a killer for anything in combat. Maybe for the healing lore? And I might want to pick up another lore or two before starting to save for more ranks. Light or Illusion would both be great for her dancing. :-)

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Magic System: Winding

 

Were I actually playing this character instead of just wishing I could play this character... ;-) (I do finally have a game starting in which I am playing but it is a relatively low magic S&S game and I have a godzilla of a melee character already approved.)

 

So, back to, ...were I playing "Sheherazade; the Vim Dancer" in a game, I expect the very first five XP would be spent on buying a Vim-touched Dice. Then it is a toss up as to whether to spend a few points on critical spell masteries, such as the ideas you mentioned, or a couple or few more OCV levels for Vim Lightning. I expect before I ever started to save up for a fifth rank and an additional 'magic' die, I would have purchased already a lore die for any of the lores I was intending to use regularly at any decent power level. I'm not sure about Channeling Dice, as the +1 phase is a killer for anything in combat. Maybe for the healing lore? And I might want to pick up another lore or two before starting to save for more ranks. Light or Illusion would both be great for her dancing. :-)

 

 

Yeah, there is definitely a lot of opportunity for individual Winders to differentiate themselves.

 

Channeling dice only make sense if you buy several of them; if you only have one the Full Phase is to expensive. If you have say three or one per Magic Die you basically trade one action for a high level of risk management.

 

Lore dice, to me, only make sense for players who like to take advantage of the Cosmic nature of Winding to cast various effects. I'd opt for Mastery personally.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Magic System: Winding

 

You forgot the Lore talent costs as well; a full-blown Winder that can do anything has put another 40 points into the Lore talents.

 

Basically, if a GM allows a wide-open Cosmic Power Pool with no restrictions in a campaign, this (and many other magic systems) aren't "mathically" competitive, to coin a phrase.

 

I'm really brainstorming on how the cost will compare to nonspellcasters, and others, more than anything else. I suspect the best answer to be "it needs to be seen in play and evaluated against other character options". I'm not certain the pricing is a problem - more thinking out loud that it seems not to fully recognize the limitations imposed. That said, the only cost that would reasonably decline is the control cost of the VPP, so the pricing discrepancy wouldn't be all that significant. With limitations applied to the spells themselves, the character would be able to have a greater number of constant spells up and running, though.

 

If I were designing the system, I'd probably be looking at playing it as drafted, and seeing how it works out in play. If the pricing seems excessive (ie the Winders don't seem sufficiently competetive in game), it's easy enough to revisit the costing at a later date.

 

The setting Winding is designed for is the Realm of Esoterica' date=' which is sort of a mashup between Planescape and Spelljammer. Planar gates aka conduits are a big part of the setting.[/quote']

 

With that in mind, it seems the GM would already have a good volume of planar material to draw on. Easy enough to change item #6 to something more suitable to any other game world the user chooses to adapt it to.

 

A) if the GM is willing to allow it, then sure there is nothing preventing a player from sitting around rolling lots of dice for their character in an attempt to game the system.

 

some of the 7 match effects are semi-beneficial, but they all have a cost -- you lose something to gain something. At the lowest end you gain a Disadvantage. In the middle you suffer a potentially lethal combat disadvantage and lose a Lore talent and which one you lose is not up to you. The final level you suffer an extremely dangerous coma effect for a minimum of 1 hour, and "gain" an effect that is circumstantially a benefit or a detriment; for characters that spend most of their time out of the 'Tween its beneficial but for characters that spend most of their time in the 'Tween its a detriment as they lose the extra "Tween die".

 

OK, I wasn't considering the mix of time between the two locations. Under controlled conditions, I don't see the coma as a big deal. The object would be to ensure it occurs when you're in a safe place, and a 1 hour coma then isn't much more risky than a 1 hour nap. But...

 

C) The 7 matches chart also procs a 2 match and a 6 match effect as well. Even if a GM allowed it' date=' a player attempting to min / max casting aimless spells in an attempt to get 7 matches will statistically kill themselves and possibly bystanders in the process. The 6 match chart is very dangerous; not to mention all the lesser effects they'd likely generate in the process. In fact, its even possible for a Winder to get a 7 match, but be killed by the automatic 6 match effect before the 7 match chart resolves.[/quote']

 

...the various damaging effects, especially cumulative, mitigate against the possible benefit considerably. And, due to the reliability issue under stress conditions, it seems likely a Winder with a lot of dice would take steps to reduce the chances of matches (Vim-touched dice for example), making the 7 matches result less likely in controlled conditions.

 

I haven't had time to read all of the 6e books yet' date=' and I haven't made it to Frameworks yet. [/quote']

 

The only major change to VPP is severing control cost from pool size. The control cost is now half the maximum AP of any one power in the pool. Given the mechanics of the system, I'm not sure it would be practical to allow this variance, so it's something I'd probably only consider after playtesting the system with the existing purchase requirements in place.

 

Each set of matches counts, and generates a roll. So two pairs would generate two rolls on the 2 match chart. I'll make this more clear in the text.

 

I initially had the idea that additional matches could instead result in rolling on the worst chart and adding +1 to it for each additional match, which would push the effect up into a worse place (I tried to order the charts so that 1 is the mildest and 6 is the worst for each chart). However the explanation of how it would work (similar to 8+ matches) is awkward so I backed off on it. I suppose I could write it up as a variant.

 

I think using each set of matches seems as good or better in practice. I suppose 2 pair could equal 3 of a kind, but you then get stuck with a table to determine which result a large number of dice causes, where "roll for each match" makes it easier in play.

 

The more powerful caster ends up with a guaranteed Storm after a while (7 dice guarantees at least one match), but that also gets a 70 AP effect pretty reliably, so the need to invest in some protection (Vim touched dice, for example) bumping up the cost isn't exactly heartbreaking, nor is it unlikely to make the system gamebreaking. With a 70 AP pool, I'd be more inclined to have a number of smaller effects.

 

Thinking on that, what if the caster wants to cast multiple spells (eg. a Vim Lightning with, say, a Flash attached to it)? That may be an issue not considered yet - 6e does allow multiple attack powers from the same framework, but 5er didn't, IIRC. Maybe the caster wants to start a Force Field and a Flight spell at the same time. Would they roll each one separately, or combine the AP, forcing a greater number of dice for the privilege of activating a number of effects at the same time?

[Panpiper]

Re: Magic System: Winding

 

Lore dice, to me, only make sense for players who like to take advantage of the Cosmic nature of Winding to cast various effects. I'd opt for Mastery personally.

Well, that would define me. ;-)

 

Way back in the days of yore, when 3rd edition was still new (and I was still playing), a GM made the profound error of seeing nothing wrong with me having a 45 point cosmic power pool for my magic. He insisted only that it require a magic roll. Well, 19 character points later, I could cast anything I could imagine for 45 active points. Never did a GM so sorely regret his error. (I enjoyed myself immensely for several games and then created a new character. I took pity on him.)

 

Here you have a system that would allow me to again play my old character, but much more tightly reigned. That means that I could 'not' have to abandon my character out of pity for the poor GM and still enjoy the pleasure of concocting whatever I needed to win the day, albeit at a somewhat lesser power level and amid other 'interesting' consequences. :-)

 

Dimensional conduits... Hmm...

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Magic System: Winding

 

Thinking on that, what if the caster wants to cast multiple spells (eg. a Vim Lightning with, say, a Flash attached to it)? That may be an issue not considered yet - 6e does allow multiple attack powers from the same framework, but 5er didn't, IIRC. Maybe the caster wants to start a Force Field and a Flight spell at the same time. Would they roll each one separately, or combine the AP, forcing a greater number of dice for the privilege of activating a number of effects at the same time?

 

That's a very good question. I was not yet aware that MPA's were now officially allowed from the same VPP. I'll hyave to think on it as I can see it going either way.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Magic System: Winding

 

Well, that would define me. ;-)

 

Way back in the days of yore, when 3rd edition was still new (and I was still playing), a GM made the profound error of seeing nothing wrong with me having a 45 point cosmic power pool for my magic. He insisted only that it require a magic roll. Well, 19 character points later, I could cast anything I could imagine for 45 active points. Never did a GM so sorely regret his error. (I enjoyed myself immensely for several games and then created a new character. I took pity on him.)

 

Here you have a system that would allow me to again play my old character, but much more tightly reigned. That means that I could 'not' have to abandon my character out of pity for the poor GM and still enjoy the pleasure of concocting whatever I needed to win the day, albeit at a somewhat lesser power level and amid other 'interesting' consequences. :-)

 

Dimensional conduits... Hmm...

 

Yeah. I've made the Cosmic VPP mistake a couple of times, though not in a Fantasy context. Learned my lesson. Now the best Ill allow is a "Partially Cosmic" effect - there has to be some kind of a leash on it.

[John-Walton]

Re: Magic System: Winding

 

Fascinating stuff.

I always loved the WH magic colleges, you have done them justice.

and random side-effects charts are never a dull moment.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Magic System: Winding

 

Fascinating stuff.

I always loved the WH magic colleges, you have done them justice.

and random side-effects charts are never a dull moment.

 

Glad you like it. And on a related tangent, I bought the new Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay boxed set last night.