Dice-roll modifiers in HERO & GURPS

[bushido11]

I'm not sure about the rest of you, but I've always wondered why the dice-roll modifiers between HERO and GURPS were so different, even though they both use 3d6. I'd guesstimate that modifiers in HERO are about half as to what a GURPS modifier would be when describing a certain level of difficulty. GURPS will throw around -4 and -6 penalties to tasks pretty casually, whereas HERO modifiers seem more reserved (tasks of the -4 and -6 penalty will be of the -2 and -3 penalty for HERO).

 

In my opinion, GURPS just overdoes it with the modifiers. Would be a pretty interesting discussion in design philosophy.

[Vondy]

Re: Dice-roll modifiers in HERO & GURPS

 

I'm not sure about the rest of you, but I've always wondered why the dice-roll modifiers between HERO and GURPS were so different, even though they both use 3d6. I'd guesstimate that modifiers in HERO are about half as to what a GURPS modifier would be when describing a certain level of difficulty. GURPS will throw around -4 and -6 penalties to tasks pretty casually, whereas HERO modifiers seem more reserved (tasks of the -4 and -6 penalty will be of the -2 and -3 penalty for HERO).

 

In my opinion, GURPS just overdoes it with the modifiers. Would be a pretty interesting discussion in design philosophy.

 

Statistically, a modifier of +/- 4 when dealing with a 3d6 curve is massive. As a rule, unless you are in a game where characters are packing lots of skill levels, or have skill rolls pushing or exceeding the top of the curve to start with, bigger modifiers (negative ones) will prove crippling and should only represent the most improbable of tasks. To some extent combat is an exception because of the way CVs and Combat Levels (the most common kind) relate to the bell curve. But even there, if evenly matched, a modifier of +/- 4 can drastically impact outcomes, let alone bigger ones. Less so when the character taking the negative modifier has a big CV advantage, but that won't always be the case. There is a time for big modifiers, but as a rule I think anything outside the +/- 4 range should be once in a blue moon or represent going against ludicrous odds AFTER the genre's reality distortion levels are taken into account.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Dice-roll modifiers in HERO & GURPS

 

Basically, a modifier of +4 equates to "easy", -4 to "hard", +5 or better to "very easy", -5 or better to "very hard", and anything in the +/- 9-12 range would be "don't bother rolling" territory for most characters(either you succeed easily or it's basically impossible to succeed).

I don't know what the skill philosophy of GURPS is, so I can't comment on that. Most Hero System characters will have a roll progression somewhere along these lines:

Non-everyman, but anyone can at least try to do it: 6 or less

Everyman or familiarity: 8 or less

Proficiency(but not competency): 10 or less

Competency (an "average" level of skill, able to do "average" tasks reliably well): 11-12 or less

Expertise (Markedly better than average, experience with subtler aspects of skill use): 13-14 or less

Mastery(a "top man" or world class expert in the skill): 15-16 or less

Elite Mastery(one of the best in the world, able to perform even difficult tasks routinely): 17-18 or less

Legendary (best in the world as mere mortals go, possibly the best of all time): 19 or less

Superhuman/Epic Legend/Godlike etc.(better than mere mortals could ever do, even the impossible is within reach): 20+

 

As you can see, an adjustment of 4 levels up or down on a roll will have a pretty dramatic impact on the skill, and for low-level practitioners, a -4 is very daunting (only someone with mastery of a skill can do it with some degree of reliability).

To my way of thinking, adjustments greater than about +/- 16 either fall into the "don't bother rolling" category, or they fall into the "using your skill to do this is akin to displaying a superpower, because no one human could pull this off".

[Vurbal]

Re: Dice-roll modifiers in HERO & GURPS

 

It's been a long time since I played GURPS but I seem to recall that skills tended to start at a higher level than in Hero and most people (at least the ones I played with) were likely to put just half a point to a point in each one. From that POV it makes sense to use big modifiers to reward players for actually putting more points into skills they want their characters to be really good at.

[Markdoc]

Re: Dice-roll modifiers in HERO & GURPS

 

It's been a long time since I played GURPS but I seem to recall that skills tended to start at a higher level than in Hero and most people (at least the ones I played with) were likely to put just half a point to a point in each one. From that POV it makes sense to use big modifiers to reward players for actually putting more points into skills they want their characters to be really good at.

 

Yeps. I haven't played GURPs since 3rd, so they may have changed things, but for skills that really mattered to you, starting heroic level (ie: typical fantasy) characters can start with skills in the 18-20 range. That makes things a little awkward because it means a few skills are "almost never fail" - those you dump points into, while everything else is "almost never succeed". It takes a fine hand GM'ing in balancing penalties and bonuses to make that work, without seeming arbitrary: tho' it can be done. Although we noted the dichotomy in play, I don't recall it ever being a problem: probably because GURPS characters tended to start off a little more specialized than their Hero system counterparts - which was true of TFT as well, now I think of it, just in a more extreme form.

 

cheers, Mark