Powers as Active Offences and Defences

[Doc Democracy]

I have been thinking that now that OCV and DCV are characteristics that cost 5 points a point that there might be another way.

 

One of the problems with playing the game for superheroes is that combat invariably comes to game system numbers rather than power use. Superheroes are all about powers for me.

 

I was thinking that rather than using OCV or DCV the character might instead use a power for attacking or defending against power use. The DC of the power would be the CV used, would have to be narratively appropriate and would cost END to use (even if the power would not normally cost END to use). The character would not be able to use the same power to hit that he used to cause damage if the attack was succcessful (in the case of DCV the player would not be able to use the same power to avoid being hit as was used to resist damage in the event of a unsuccessful defence).

 

Using a power would be a conscious decision - it would not be possible to use it if surprised or unaware of the attack. Neither would a character be able to use manoeuvres to enhance the active offence or defence as would be possible if OCV or DCV were being used.

 

Thoughts?

 

Doc

[torchwolf]

Re: Powers as Active Offences and Defences

 

This reminds me of the DC Heroes system (aka MEGS aka Blood of Heroes). The idea in that system was, much as I think yours is, that the more raw power you can bring to bear, the higher your odds of hitting your target. This makes sense for many attack powers where this is true, but how about Deflection, etc. ? There are some fixed point Powers and those that makes less sense to be able to hit better because of more energy, such as Darkness and some other AoE attacks.

 

The downside is of course that you get fewer tactical options when you base it all around the Powers.

 

A variant would be to balance it out by applying an Advantage for Powers that should have an integral CV - say +1 if you want the cost of a having CV with a Power, or the other way around if you make it the default: Powers that don't have a CV can take a -1 Limitation.

This is assuming you want to be able to have both options and allow for superheroes to have a comparatively low base OCV and DCV but still a good chance to hit.

 

If you don't want to be concerned at all about CVs you might end up with nerfed Martial Artists, unless you do it another way for MA purchased or build MA with Powers instead.

 

Hope any of that was helpful.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Powers as Active Offences and Defences

 

You could simulate this effect by Spreading the attack for most powers to boost the OCV. Alternatively the hero could buy extra OCV that cost END, the sfx being his firebolt or whatever is massive, taking up most of a hex. You might also allow a house rule for pushing OCV with the same sfx. All of these tweaks would give you the flavor you are looking for without having to use an alternate combat system for superheroes.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Powers as Active Offences and Defences

 

I'm not sure it does because it then means I am getting back to the game mechanics rather than the powers of the characters, even if I am doing it in a different way. It is like the way you buy resistent defence for Batman, despite him not really having any because that is the way to make him game effective (we call it combat luck but it is armour).

 

We give human level martial artists increased DC to be effective to the point that they could kick open vault doors. This makes them game effective.

 

When you get down to it most characters, if you look at them in game statistics are pretty similar (Sean alluded to that in advice to new GM). The powers are the wrapping around the core of the character (the mechanics). I want to make the powers more central and more responsible for the effectiveness of the characters than the core mechanics.

 

Doc

[Sean Waters]

Re: Powers as Active Offences and Defences

 

I was reading JLA: The Injustice League' recently and a few things occurred to me, which I think are within the scope of this idea. First off some characters, for instance, FireStorm, did use an 'active defence' in that he apparently deflected attacks using a variant of his transmutation power, which is often used as an attack, SECONDLY - and this is a little different - I also noticed that most attacks one-shotted opponents, when they hit. Even Superman got knocked down by one shot from Dr Light - although it then took three others 'coordinating' to actually KO him. You can simulate these things with campaign character build rules and specific character builds (active defences become extra SPD for defence only, or triggered defences, one-shotting is just a matter of adjusting the damage to defence ratio). Hmm. I also noticed Wonder Woman being entangled in ice, and actually trapped there: not something that you could really do in Hero with Entangle: you'd at least need a STR drain too...anyway, that is nothing to do with what we are talking about...

 

As to the proposed house rule, a couple of things occur to me...

 

1. Would this not cause problems for the type of character based mainly on characteristics and skills? They would not have a convenient energy blast they could use to deflect an incoming attack, for instance. That could influence the way in which characters are built, making certain archetypes more potent than others. Batman, for instance, would suffer.

 

2. I don't really understand how you would represent in game 'using one power to hit and another to cause damage' (although I can see how you might use one power for DCV (an angled force field, perhaps) and another for damage resistance (tough exoskeletal chitin, perhaps)).

 

3. Perhaps intentionally this approach would favour 'raw' attacks over advantaged ones as you use DC as the appropriate combat value.

 

4. I could see everyone ending up with a 'damage resistance' power, and three attacks: one to cause damage, one to use as DCV and one to use as OCV.

 

I'm keen on sfx interaction - although not sold on how it was done in The Ultimate Blaster - and I think that if we changed how 'block' worked, maybe even how DCV worked so that it was more of an active defence rather than a passive one (you can accomplish that by the attacker AND defender rolling 3d6 and adding to their appropriate combat value: OCV if attacking, DCV if defending, with the defender having to beat the attacker - YES it is a mechanical effect but it could easily feel much more like a battle of powers. If you made some of your CV cost END and have a sfx like your Blast power, you're golden

 

As to martial artists kicking down vault doors - well some probably could: Iron Fist with his energy fist power can probably do massive damage and that martial artist type from The Inhumans can break virtually anything BUT I do get what you mean - perhaps the answer is, once more, in the build: cap their DCs of damage against inanimate objects, or build punches so that they have a cumulative effect, some sort of NND or AVLD build.

 

Ultimately though, if you don't want martial artists to be able to kick down vault doors, then you don;t want martial artists who can hurt Grond: he's tougher and probably heavier than a vault door. Again that seems like a build decision for a campaign: if you, for instance, build agent types with weapons that can take down the group Brick, you need a MA or Speedster to take down the agents: if the MA/Speedster has no chance against the supervillain, but the Brick can take the villain down, everyone has a role: I think that is part of the problem - we often design all rounders who can take on pretty much anything - fast Bricks and high damage MA types. Perhaps if we designed for niches more, we would be better off?

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Powers as Active Offences and Defences

 

1. Would this not cause problems for the type of character based mainly on characteristics and skills? They would not have a convenient energy blast they could use to deflect an incoming attack' date=' for instance. That could influence the way in which characters are built, making certain archetypes more potent than others. Batman, for instance, would suffer.[/quote']

 

Not sure. I think that skills type characters would stick to the mechanics part of the game, but Batman types are likely to have gadget type stuff that they might be able to use more regularly and often have more skill type stuff that leverage the CV aspects more efficiently.

 

They are not part of my worries in this, though if they bought their martial arts as powers rather than as skills, then they would be able to access this as well. Would depend on how they approach the system...

 

2. I don't really understand how you would represent in game 'using one power to hit and another to cause damage' (although I can see how you might use one power for DCV (an angled force field' date=' perhaps) and another for damage resistance (tough exoskeletal chitin, perhaps)).[/quote']

 

You might use your flash to blind someone temporarily making it impossible for your blast not to hit (flash used to hit, blast for damage) You might alternatively use your blast to hit someone in the face (use flash for damage). Anything that you can relate storywise where the power is more important than your ability to hit. This might stretch the storytelling powers of the players, but if they aren't up to the challenge then the core system is sitting there to use.

 

3. Perhaps intentionally this approach would favour 'raw' attacks over advantaged ones as you use DC as the appropriate combat value.

 

Yeah - it provides a good reason to have raw powers over advantaged ones. Broadens their appeal.

 

4. I could see everyone ending up with a 'damage resistance' power' date=' and three attacks: one to cause damage, one to use as DCV and one to use as OCV.[/quote']

 

Having people think about a variety of powers with a variety of uses that have to be narrated in game rather than, will use a blast and CV to hit should improve the game, no?

 

As to martial artists kicking down vault doors - well some probably could: Iron Fist with his energy fist power can probably do massive damage and that martial artist type from The Inhumans can break virtually anything BUT I do get what you mean - perhaps the answer is, once more, in the build: cap their DCs of damage against inanimate objects, or build punches so that they have a cumulative effect, some sort of NND or AVLD build.

 

Ultimately though, if you don't want martial artists to be able to kick down vault doors, then you don;t want martial artists who can hurt Grond: he's tougher and probably heavier than a vault door. Again that seems like a build decision for a campaign: if you, for instance, build agent types with weapons that can take down the group Brick, you need a MA or Speedster to take down the agents: if the MA/Speedster has no chance against the supervillain, but the Brick can take the villain down, everyone has a role: I think that is part of the problem - we often design all rounders who can take on pretty much anything - fast Bricks and high damage MA types. Perhaps if we designed for niches more, we would be better off?

 

It is a problem with point build systems that players want to cover all the angles and it can be difficult for the GM to say no, especially for combat stuff which players tend to value over non-combat...

 

 

Doc