Repricing CSLs

[ajackson]

In my time as a GM and player, I have noticed that certain level sizes (2p, 3p) are very popular, and other levels sizes are, well, not. This implies that there might be some form of problem with their costing, so I thought I'd examine their prices.

 

Fundamentally, +1 level with all combat can be thought of as a multipower with +1 OCV (5), +1 DCV (5), +0.5 DC (unspecified, but (5) seems fair). Thus, +1 level with all combat has a natural cost of 8 points. Note that these are multi slots, not ultra slots, since it's possible to mix and match on levels. Other types of levels can then be thought of as combat levels with limitations. Based on the pricing of things like multipowers and the variable effect advantage, I'd eyeball the limitations as:

1 ability: -1 limitation

Small Group: -1/2 limitation

Large Group: -1/4 limitation

 

This gives us a basic cost as follows:

Combat Skill Level: 8 (All), 6 (Large Group), 5 (Small Group), 4 (Single Ability). OCV, DCV, or DC (current pricing: 10, 5, 3, n/a)

We can also introduce new level types:

OCV Level: 4 (Large Group), 3 (Small Group), 2 (Single Power). OCV only. 2 point levels are probably being generous.

DCV Level: 4 (Large Group), 3 (Small Group), 2 (Single Power). DCV only. 2 point levels are probably being generous.

Melee Level: 5 (All), 4 (Small Group), 3 (Single Power). OCV, DCV, or DC, but only with or against melee attacks. Optionally, also works vs ranged attacks that are done at no range (this is a CSL with the 'No Range' limitation).

 

Mental CSLs are a special case, as MCV is 3 points per level. Natural pricing for a general MCV level is 7 (if 2 levels can be used for +1 DC) or 5 (if it takes 3 levels for +1 DC).

 

Thoughts?

[pinecone]

Re: Repricing CSLs

 

In my time as a GM and player, I have noticed that certain level sizes (2p, 3p) are very popular, and other levels sizes are, well, not. This implies that there might be some form of problem with their costing, so I thought I'd examine their prices.

 

Fundamentally, +1 level with all combat can be thought of as a multipower with +1 OCV (5), +1 DCV (5), +0.5 DC (unspecified, but (5) seems fair). Thus, +1 level with all combat has a natural cost of 8 points. Note that these are multi slots, not ultra slots, since it's possible to mix and match on levels. Other types of levels can then be thought of as combat levels with limitations. Based on the pricing of things like multipowers and the variable effect advantage, I'd eyeball the limitations as:

1 ability: -1 limitation

Small Group: -1/2 limitation

Large Group: -1/4 limitation

 

This gives us a basic cost as follows:

Combat Skill Level: 8 (All), 6 (Large Group), 5 (Small Group), 4 (Single Ability). OCV, DCV, or DC (current pricing: 10, 5, 3, n/a)

We can also introduce new level types:

OCV Level: 4 (Large Group), 3 (Small Group), 2 (Single Power). OCV only. 2 point levels are probably being generous.

DCV Level: 4 (Large Group), 3 (Small Group), 2 (Single Power). DCV only. 2 point levels are probably being generous.

Melee Level: 5 (All), 4 (Small Group), 3 (Single Power). OCV, DCV, or DC, but only with or against melee attacks. Optionally, also works vs ranged attacks that are done at no range (this is a CSL with the 'No Range' limitation).

 

Mental CSLs are a special case, as MCV is 3 points per level. Natural pricing for a general MCV level is 7 (if 2 levels can be used for +1 DC) or 5 (if it takes 3 levels for +1 DC).

 

Thoughts?

 

Looks "OK" at first glance. Play will be the ultimate test, but 8 was too high in 5Th etc, but in 6Th I think it is a more likely cost/value....

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Repricing CSLs

 

I'm inclined to agree "all combat" at 8 is about right.

 

I don't find 2 points for +1 OCV (or DCV) with one attack is inordinately generous. That's a -1 1/2 limitation on +1 OCV or +1 DCV, and need not be a level at all.

 

+1 DC with one attack for 4 points is reasonable - that's 1d6 EB, no Spreading, or +1d6 Hand Attack, after all.

[ajackson]

Re: Repricing CSLs

 

I'm inclined to agree "all combat" at 8 is about right.

It was too high in 5e, where +3 Dex (no figured CHA) for 6 points would give you +1 OCV, +1 DCV, +3 initiative, and maybe +1 to Dex rolls, but 6e is not 5e. However, 6e promptly increased the max cost CSL to 10.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Repricing CSLs

 

I think the Multipower pricing approach is appropriate, and 8 points feels like it's in the game. I think we can extrapolate it further down, so instead of

 

8 (All), 6 (Large Group), 5 (Small Group), 4 (Single Ability). OCV, DCV, or DC

 

perhaps we get 8 (All) - which I agree is the appropriate pricing.

6 - Large Group (examples: all HTH combat; all ranged combat)

5 - Related Group (example: Martial Arts; Multipower - this is for that character with a wide array of linked options where dropping those few HTH options not covered by martial arts, say, is not hugely limiting)

4 - Limited Group (3 options - for example, Strike, Grab, Trip; a small Martial Art or multipower where the character has numerous other combat options his CSL's will not apply to; any one maneuver usable with any attack)

3 - one power with one maneuver (eg. Strike with Energy Blast)

2 - one power with one maneuver restricted to either OCV, DCV or DC's (so 1 DC costs two levels which costs 4 points). (eg +1 OCV with Punch)

 

There's clearly some judgement in choosing between the size of groups, but this will have 1 point per level impact, so less crucial than at present.

[ajackson]

Re: Repricing CSLs

 

I think the Multipower pricing approach is appropriate' date=' and 8 points feels like it's in the game. I think we can extrapolate it further down[/quote']

This is more a question of appropriate limitation values than extrapolation per se -- I had 'large group -1/4, small group -1/2, single power -1' and you have 'large group -1/4, medium group -1/2, small group -1, single power -1 1/2'. It's difficult to tell what's the correct limitation value; the game tends to use advantages for flexibility, not disadvantages for removing flexibility.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Repricing CSLs

 

This is more a question of appropriate limitation values than extrapolation per se -- I had 'large group -1/4' date=' small group -1/2, single power -1' and you have 'large group -1/4, medium group -1/2, small group -1, single power -1 1/2'. It's difficult to tell what's the correct limitation value; the game tends to use advantages for flexibility, not disadvantages for removing flexibility.[/quote']

 

I don't see it as much about limitations as a further drop of 1 point each for each reduction in group size. That said, Single Power -1 seems too low a limitation, while -1.5 or -2 would both round to 3 points.

[ajackson]

Re: Repricing CSLs

 

Note that part of the reason I eliminated the 'large group' vs 'related group' distinction is because I'm not at all convinced that 'all the powers in my multipower' or 'all martial arts' is actually more limiting than 'all ranged' or 'all melee'; remember, the related group can have both ranged and melee powers in it.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Repricing CSLs

 

Note that part of the reason I eliminated the 'large group' vs 'related group' distinction is because I'm not at all convinced that 'all the powers in my multipower' or 'all martial arts' is actually more limiting than 'all ranged' or 'all melee'; remember' date=' the related group can have both ranged and melee powers in it.[/quote']

 

Yup. And they are presumably limited in some other way. Again, there is some judgement for the GM to apply. If the "related group" is so versatile that it's equivalent to a "large group", charge for "large group". However, the character who has levels with MA cannot use his levels on non-MA HTH attacks, such as Haymaker, so they are more limited than All HTH.

[secretID]

Re: Repricing CSLs

 

The MP design is a great way to price it, in general.

 

I think the problem is that there's a declining marginal return to adding attack types to a character's repertoire, and so a similar decline to broadening CSLs. Few characters can do ranged attacks, melee attacks, and mental attacks, so there's less use for "all combat."

 

For supers, I would suggest determining the pricing much as you did, and then increasing the price of "related group of attacks," because that's what's most useful to players.

[Checkmate]

Re: Repricing CSLs

 

It was too high in 5e' date=' where +3 Dex (no figured CHA) for 6 points would give you +1 OCV, +1 DCV, +3 initiative, and maybe +1 to Dex rolls, but 6e is not 5e. However, 6e promptly increased the max cost CSL to 10.[/quote']

The problem with this though is that you can add +1 to your OECV or DECV with an 8pt CSL

[ajackson]

Re: Repricing CSLs

 

The problem with this though is that you can add +1 to your OECV or DECV with an 8pt CSL

Not in 6e you can't, but even in 5e the ability to be used for ECV wasn't enough to make an all combat level worth 8.

[Tasha]

Re: Repricing CSLs

 

It was too high in 5e' date=' where +3 Dex (no figured CHA) for 6 points would give you +1 OCV, +1 DCV, +3 initiative, and maybe +1 to Dex rolls, but 6e is not 5e. However, 6e promptly increased the max cost CSL to 10.[/quote']

 

Of course in 5e and earlier, in non superheroic games (ie game with normal characteristic mults) you didn't always have the option to buy +3 dex as it would put you over max. Which would make the dex cost 12pts for +3 and of course you would have to convince your GM why you suddenly needed superhuman dexterity.

 

I think that skill levels are too expensive in 6e. Why buy a 10pt all combat level when you could buy +1 OCV and +1 DCV for the same points? It's even less of a bargain now that you can't apply your all combat skill level to mental combat.

 

I still find myself wishing the combat levels hadn't increased in price. They aren't really the bargain they used to be in earlier editions.

 

Tasha

[Tasha]

Re: Repricing CSLs

 

The problem with this though is that you can add +1 to your OECV or DECV with an 8pt CSL

 

BTW in 6e All Combat levels are 10pts.

[Bodkins Odds]

Re: Repricing CSLs

 

perhaps we get 8 (All) - which I agree is the appropriate pricing.

6 - Large Group (examples: all HTH combat; all ranged combat)

5 - Related Group (example: Martial Arts; Multipower - this is for that character with a wide array of linked options where dropping those few HTH options not covered by martial arts, say, is not hugely limiting)

4 - Limited Group (3 options - for example, Strike, Grab, Trip; a small Martial Art or multipower where the character has numerous other combat options his CSL's will not apply to; any one maneuver usable with any attack)

3 - one power with one maneuver (eg. Strike with Energy Blast)

2 - one power with one maneuver restricted to either OCV, DCV or DC's (so 1 DC costs two levels which costs 4 points). (eg +1 OCV with Punch)

 

There's clearly some judgement in choosing between the size of groups, but this will have 1 point per level impact, so less crucial than at present.

 

This looks good, has anyone tried it?

 

EDIT: I'm trying it now, I'll let you all know how it works out.