Density Decrease?

[Reln]

I'm working on a character that can Change his body mass. I plan to set it up as a multipower with Density Increase No STR Increase as half of it. I also want to be able to reduce my mass down to basically nothing...though my equipment/clothing would still have mass. This is for a 150point Heroic game.

 

The Density decrease would allow me to jump and move quickly. I was thinking of using a variation of shrinking to simulate this? With inches of jumping to replace Perception and DCV bonuses.

 

Any suggestions?

 

[Sytar]

I actually have a character with that exact power.

 

I bought it in a few powers that were in a multipower that would all activate together. It also gave me the ability to adjust it a bit one way or another.

 

To start I added Desity Increase. This is nice, but at low levels dosn't really seem too worth it, so I added Armor in there too. You can also add KBR to help, and extra Str.

 

For decrease I had a few levels that I considered. From a bit lighter to almost a gas. I had Shrinking -Invisable power effects (Visable). It still had touch so you would get lighter, but not smaller. Add to this Damage reduction to represent that your body is a bit less dense so it is more malable. Running can be added to show that you are lighter and can run faster.

 

Then the highest level of Desity Decrease would simply be Desolid.

[PhilFleischmann]

This is a power I've wanted included for decades. Most of the time people said, "Desolid." But that isn't what I wanted, I wanted Density Decrease. I wound up writing my own power. It granted bonuses to Leaping, Climbing, and Swimming (more boyant), makes it more difficult to dive underwater. Also bonuses to END or REC (only or especially for recovering END) because it's less effort to carry your body weight and move it around. You'd also take increased knockback.

[Reln]

That's exactly what i'm looking for. This is an NPC in a Fantisy Hero game, he can not desolid he can only chang his weight.

[Farkling]

Shrinking, Invisible Power Effects, Does not change size ??

Oxymoronic Power Construct, yet possibly appropriate.

Then link the additional powers.

 

 

HOWEVER...in a Heroic Campaign, I don't see why you couldn't buy something along the lines of ::

Flight, 10" (or Gliding 10") (SFX:: Reduced Density), Side Effect:: Density reduced relative to Active Points used (-x). Restricted Horizontal Travel (-y).

 

That seems to have a better feel to me...and it acts as a feather fall also...gravity pulls DOWN 5", you can CLIMB 5"

 

For the increased Swimming....Flight works in the water.

For the increased Leaping....leap and activate the flight.

For the Climbing....well, it would certainly be easier if "mostly" flying...

It even works with forward leaps.

 

Good lick with your GM

[zornwil]

Well, Rat wrote up a pretty decent new power for this, replacing Desolid essentially with a more incremental and less absolute power - but for weeks I've been unable to get on the Champions' mailing list (the sysabend.org one) and the list adminsitrator apparently no longer checks that account.

 

When I get back in there I'll send off his particular write-up, it seemed pretty good. Oh, wait, I think I copied and pasted it something at home...I won't have time tonight but if you can wait I should ship it off to this list tomorrow. I don't recall the details, I recall I liked it though.

[prestidigitator]

I don't think this needs to be a separate Power. The Flight construct is a good one. I might even buy it as enough Flight to counter the character's weight according to the rules for adding Flight to Str. I would probably limit it even farther than the "Restricted Horizontal Travel," though. Probably something like, "Only to Counter Gravity and Inertia (-2)." The Side Effects was a good idea.

 

In general, I believe this tends to be viewed in the wrong way by people. Think of the effects and mechanics, rather than what is happening physically. As mentioned, this may be more like the Special Effects of a bunch of (possibly Linked) powers. (Shrinking?! No! You aren't getting any of the real mechanic benefits of Shrinking; only one of the incidentals/side effects. Desolidification?! Even farther off!)

[J4y]

Someone that gets more dense doesn't move slower, maybe because of the extra strength (each +5 STR gives x2 lifting power which compensates for the doubled mass), but if you're not changing strength then if you want your character to move faster with lower density it would make sense they move slower when more dense..

 

The density increase chart (I'm looking at 4ed right now, think it's the same though) uses 100kg as the base and gives +5 STR, +1PD, +1ED and +1 knockback resistance, for each doubling of mass. If you extend that the other way by halving mass you'd figure -5 STR, -1P, -1ED and -1 knockback resistance for each halving of mass.

 

I'd be tempted to just say replace the unfigured 5 STR with 2 running/1 leaping (positive for levels in density decrease, negative for levels in density increase.) DI is 5 pts/level, but since you're not gaining strength thats probably about a -1 limitation to it. Instead of the limitation though, say for 5pts you get a level of each Increase and Descrease, so for 25pts you could go down to about 3 kgs gaining +10 run +5 jump, -5ED -5PD -5KBR, or go up to 3200 kgs getting -10 run -5 jump +5ED +5PD +5KBR.

 

I'd be tempted to decrease and increase falling damage based on density at the same time even though density increase doesn't. A person-sized object thats 3kgs falls more like a feather than a stone!

 

EDIT: Oops, because of the cost you'd probably be paying double the END you'd think you should, you might want to halve the END for free on that power or split it into two different powers and apply the -1 limitation to it (i.e. 5pts with a -1 lim gets you a level of density increase or a level of density decrease, not both)

[Farkling]

In earlier editions of the rules, it was dictated that each level of active Density Increase (each mass doubling) caused +1" to the 30" terminal velocity.

 

4xmass = 32" TV

16xmass = 34" TV

 

I haven't found it in FRED ...

[Sytar]

Originally posted by J4y

The density increase chart (I'm looking at 4ed right now, think it's the same though) uses 100kg as the base and gives +5 STR, +1PD, +1ED and +1 knockback resistance, for each doubling of mass. If you extend that the other way by halving mass you'd figure -5 STR, -1P, -1ED and -1 knockback resistance for each halving of mass.

 

Hmm, sounds like a huge limitation rather then a power?

[zornwil]

Originally posted by zornwil

Well, Rat wrote up a pretty decent new power for this, replacing Desolid essentially with a more incremental and less absolute power - but for weeks I've been unable to get on the Champions' mailing list (the sysabend.org one) and the list adminsitrator apparently no longer checks that account.

 

When I get back in there I'll send off his particular write-up, it seemed pretty good. Oh, wait, I think I copied and pasted it something at home...I won't have time tonight but if you can wait I should ship it off to this list tomorrow. I don't recall the details, I recall I liked it though.

 

Sorry, I can't find it. I'll see if someone else has it.

[zornwil]

Here it is, many thanks to Lemming who got it from the CHamps list since I cannot go there.

 

From StainlessSteelRat:

 

It definitely needs cleaning up, and probably needs elaboration and

clarification in certain areas, and almost certainly needs a reality check

on the cost structure, but I'm reasonably proud of something whipped up at

midnight.

 

Density Decrease [sTOP]

(Density Decrease replaces Desolidification in its entirety)

 

This Power allows a character to reduce the density of his physical body,

making it harder to affect him by physical means but also making him less able

to interact with physical objects. Examples of Density Decrease include the

intangible body of a ghost, a superhero who can alter the phase vibration of

the molecules of his body, a vampire's magical mist form, or beings made of

substances more malleable or less coherent than mundane matter (though most

beings of this type should buy Damage Reduction instead of Density Decrease).

 

There are four levels of Density Decrease, 25%, 50%, 75% and 100%. At each

level, a character is less affected by physical (including energy based)

attacks by that percentage. Knockback from physical attacks is calculated

from the Body that is able to affect him. For example, a character with 25%

Density Decrease is hit by an Energy Blast that does 12 Body and 40 Stun. The

character reduces the Body and Stun by 25%, and applies 9 Body and 30 Stun to

his defenses. Knockback is 9 minus 2d6 inches.

 

A character with Density Decrease may pass through some solid objects or

obstacles. The character ignores his Density Decrease percentage of the DEF

of any object or barrier. He then rolls his Strength damage; if the Body

damage rolled exceeds the DEF of the object or barrier he is able to move for

one Phase at his full movement rate. No damage is actually done to the object

or barrier. For example, the character from above wants to move through a 6

DEF Entangle. He has 25% Density Decrease and 25 Strength. He treats the

Entangle as if it had 4 DEF. He then makes a Strength roll, and rolls 5 Body

and is able to escape the Entangle. Later, he wants to slip undetected into a

villain's mountain stronghold. The mountain rock has a DEF of 8. He treats

the rock as if it were DEF 6 and rolls 6 Body. He is able to move for one

Phase through the rock. On his next Phase he rolls only 5 Body; he is unable

to move this Phase.

 

Characters using Density Decrease are also less able to affect physical

objects proportionate to their Density Decrease levels. A character's

Strength damage (when used as an attack) and other attacks are reduced by the

Density Decrease level. For example, a character with 50% Density Decrease

makes an attack against with a 12d6 Energy Blast and rolls 13 Body and 42

Stun. The target applies 6 Body and 21 Stun to his defenses. This character

has 30 Stregth, but he can apply only 50% of that, 15, to physical objects for

purposes of lifting, throwing, holding, damage, etc. Knockback is calculated

from the Body that affects the solid target.

 

Characters using Density Decrease are fully affected by all Powers that affect

a Desolidified character. Density Decrease does not provide any form of Life

Support. The drowning rules apply to any character moving through objects or

barriers without appropriate Life Support. Etc. Copy it from

Desolidification.

 

The player must define the special effects of a reasonably common group of

attacks that will fully affect the character while using Density Decrease. A

character who alters the phase vibration of his body's molecules may be fully

affected by sonic attacks, while a character with a fluid body may be fully

affected by intense cold.

 

Density Decrease confers no Invisiblity. Characters who should be less

detectoble or undetectable to various Senses should buy the appropriate

skill levels of Invisiblity.

 

Advantages

 

Affects Physical World: A character may buy this Advantage for his Strength or

Powers that have full effect on completely characters or objects. The value

of the Advantage depends on the level of Density Decrease: +1/2 for 25%, +1

for 50%, +1.5 for 75%, and +2 for 100%.

 

Limitations

 

Fixed Level: Normally, a character can adjust his Density Decrease level from

25% to his maximum level. This Limitation is for characters that cannot vary

their Density Decrease level other than turning it off (see also: Always On).

The value of the Limitation is -1/2. Characters with 25% Density Decrease

cannot take this Limitation.

 

Density Decrease cost: 20 points per level.

[Sytar]

Interesting way to look at it. I do like the idea of how to determine if someone with different levels can move through objects.

 

As far as advantages, it seem that this is basicly Damage Reduction with the ability to move though objects, and you do less damage. Hmm. I don't see how the advantages seem to add up to 20 pts per level. To go Disoild you would need to pay 80 points, and to get 50% you would have to pay 40 plus the advantage on every power you have to actually effect stuff at normal levels. It seems that there needs to be a bit more to it to make it worth 20pts per level. The idea is solid, and I do like the write up, it is very well described and dosn't leave much to question. Good work.

[Doc Democracy]

I've been thinking of a density decrease power for some time and wanted one that was scalable rather than absolute.

 

What I cam up with was density decrease - you get 1D6 per 5 points and for that you can avoid 1D6 of damage when somone shoots at you but lose 1D6 of damage when you shoot at someone else.

 

In addition you can move through a substance if you can overcome its DEF on a roll. For example if you had 10D6 Density Decrease you would roll 10D6 and count BODY. Rolling the average of 10 you would be able to move 5" through a DEF 5 substance, or 9" through a DEF 1 substance but would be unable to penetrate a DEF 10 substance.

 

I haven't yet tried it in play but think it is as good as anything else that I've seen so far.

[prestidigitator]

Originally posted by zornwil

Density Decrease [sTOP]

(Density Decrease replaces Desolidification in its entirety)

Yes. This is pretty interesting. It doesn't sound quite like the original idea of the thread, however. That sounded more like a modification to mass only (with appropriate mechanics changes to movement, etc.).

 

A character with Density Decrease may pass through some solid objects or obstacles. The character ignores his Density Decrease percentage of the DEF of any object or barrier. He then rolls his Strength damage; if the Body damage rolled exceeds the DEF of the object or barrier he is able to move for one Phase at his full movement rate.

This is cool. I might allow the character to base this on Dex or Ego instead (for appropriate Special Effects), maybe with an appropriate Adder (+10? +15?). I'm not sure if this would be, "roll Body damage, as if this Characteristic were Str," or, "make a Characteristic roll, with -1 per X Def that affects you."

[Farkling]

"Characteristic roll, with -1 per X Def that affects you."

 

I like that better than the STR option...the STR option implies something is being damaged or forced, and wouldn't that be painful? The CHAR roll is more like a "mental adjustment" to slip through the object.

 

"What I cam up with was density decrease - you get 1D6 per 5 points and for that you can avoid 1D6 of damage when somone shoots at you but lose 1D6 of damage when you shoot at someone else.

 

In addition you can move through a substance if you can overcome its DEF on a roll. For example if you had 10D6 Density Decrease you would roll 10D6 and count BODY. Rolling the average of 10 you would be able to move 5" through a DEF 5 substance, or 9" through a DEF 1 substance but would be unable to penetrate a DEF 10 substance.

"

 

I'm not comfortable with this one...all those dice for a simple movement. Maybe just 1 DEF per D6 you have, with the extra D6 being " of movement. Also, as above, it adds a damage mechanic to a movement ability...unpredictable movement just doesn't work for me...and the extra rolls would slow combat down again. It is pretty straightforward and east to understand though, and mechanically works. How do you plan to adjust the Killing DC's?

"Roll 2 1/2 d6 Bob, instead of the normal 3d6+1 ?"

I like it better than the Damage Reduction breakponts on the Decrease power, it's more...um....granular.

 

I think Desol originally got constructed using Dice...I have that as a vague memory...anybody have an old bookd to check? I'm thinking 1st edition...

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Farkling

I think Desol originally got constructed using Dice...I have that as a vague memory...anybody have an old bookd to check? I'm thinking 1st edition...

 

Originally, it was 5 points per BOD the character could pass through in a phase. It made it as far as 2nd Ed, but there was a minimum 40 point cost. The only people who ever beat the 40 point cost had it in a multipower so the excess was pretty cheap.

[Farkling]

Ah...thanks Hugh....that's what I was remembering.

 

I kinda like the 5 pt / increment level myself...I might experiment with that including the "reasonably common effects" limitation of Desol. That granular level of desol has possibilities...

 

Eh...I may not. The applications that I think of for the granular effects are more of a linked/limited Armor/Force Field combination if you really think about it. Hmmm.

 

Perhaps that's why Desol is all or nothing? Various levels of intangibility that are being discussed are simply forms of Force Field/Armor/rPD/rED and/or Damage Reduction?

I think "partial intangibility" is a Damage Reduction special effect. As I think about it, I'm being drawn back to the "Density Reduction" power.

 

I don't think I would allow the automatic damage reduction power...after all, they don't get free sense reduction powers, and senses are cheaper than damage. Perhaps the damage reduction should be bought seperately up to the DD level, and linked to the active DD...that would be more appropriate, and to include the "common effects" that counteract the DD.

 

I like the staged idea of Density Reduction...but it is giving more bang for the buck than Density Increase I believe.

 

Also, if we assume 1/2 mass for every level, then we do not have a massless character...we have a character with 1/2-1/4-1/8-1/16 th mass...or we have 3/4 mass, 1/2 mass, 1/4 mass, no mass. Which will lead to an amusing contradiction of some kind if the player buys both DI and DD. Active DI will reduce knockback, increase mass, increase STR, increase PD/ED. Active DD will reduce KB, decrease damage, not effect STR, and allow passage through solid objects. I think I begin to see why Desol is an all or nothing power. Stacking these models would be REAL effective. Especially to the 8xmass Brick...he could buy both, and take 50% damage, probably no KB, weigh 400kg, and pass through solid objects without causing damage...

Also, even though the character still interacts with the physical world (below the 100% level), he cannot exert his STR without a power advantage. That is counter intuitive...his STR should undergo some kind of reduction...not just "turn off" at the first decrease...after all, he is only PARTIALLY dematerialized.

 

Perhaps it could be lumped as one power - Density Shift/Density Control or some such...that would prevent both being active at once...then the cost could be retained at 20 points, with a limitation for shifting "only to increase, only to decrease".

But they have different effects...so they can't be one power.

We'd have to overhaul the old Density Increase power also...so the benefits were linear in both directions.

 

Or perhaps Density Reduction is an aspect of defenses, special effects, limited Desolidification, and IPE Tunnelling Self Only?

[prestidigitator]

Originally posted by Farkling

Stacking these models would be REAL effective. Especially to the 8xmass Brick...he could buy both, and take 50% damage, probably no KB, weigh 400kg, and pass through solid objects without causing damage...

I would balance them such that the drawbacks for one took away the benefits for the other. Look at Growth and Shrinking. Shrinking gives you DCV bonuses and penalties to others' Per rolls, and Growth does the opposite; similarly for knockback. The only thing you would get from using both powers at once would be a little extra Str, Body, and Stun (ignoring the reach thing, which makes no sense), and it is quite an expensive price for it, especially considering that they would have to pay End (25 points and 2 End per Phase for +15 Str, +3 Body, and +3 Stun? Fine with me: that's more than the 24 points it would cost to buy them permenently, and not have to pay the End).

 

Of course, you could just put a clause in that says the two powers can't be used at the same time--or if they are, the effects of using one power merely cancel out all benefits of the other until it exceeds the other effect-wise.

[Doc Democracy]

Originally posted by Farkling

I'm not comfortable with this one...all those dice for a simple movement. Maybe just 1 DEF per D6 you have, with the extra D6 being " of movement. Also, as above, it adds a damage mechanic to a movement ability...unpredictable movement just doesn't work for me...and the extra rolls would slow combat down again.

 

Yeah - I think if I was using it regularly I'd encourage the player to use the 1DEF/inch per D6 unless they wanted to push it. The roll at 10D6 will come up as 10 so often the player will tend to do that anyway but the dice roll as an option is worth it, IMO anyway.

 

 

Originally posted by Farkling

It is pretty straightforward and east to understand though, and mechanically works. How do you plan to adjust the Killing DC's?

"Roll 2 1/2 d6 Bob, instead of the normal 3d6+1 ?"

 

It's when I come to these wrinkles I often give up as it never seems to balance very well. I'm very tempted to stick with the D6 for a D6 which makes it very useful for a desolid character fighting someone with a killing attack (as long as they too aren't using a killing attack). That fits with my 4 colour tendencies though. The more balanced approach would be to consider DC versus DC so 2D6 desolid would reduce the attack by 2DC. It all gets very complicated though!!

[PhilFleischmann]

Physics Check

 

Remember that density is not the same as solidity. Wood is solid and water isn't, but water is more dense than wood, which is why it floats. (Exept for mahogany and similar woods).

 

Remember also that density and weight (or mass) do not determine a body's falling speed. Metal and plastic may be equally solid and unequally dense, but they fall at the same speed. Terminal velocity is determined by aerodynamics (shape) not by density (and by the characteristics of the atmosphere of course). The only time density becomes an issue relating to falling is when the object approches the density of the atmosphere. A soap bubble has almost the same density as the surrounding air, since after all it's made of mostly air.

 

An incremental desolid is a fine idea for a power, but it isn't the same as density decrease. A ping-pong ball is a lot less dense than a ping-pong table, but that doesn't mean the ball can pass through the table.

 

I don't mean to stifle anyones ideas here. These are all useful power ideas:

1) An incremental Desolidification - passing through solid objects and allowing physical and energy attacks to pass through you without harm (or reduced harm).

2) Density Decrease - reducing mass but maintaining solidity and hardness, making it easier to move, climb, leap, float, etc. and possibly giving other effects as well.

3) Altering Hardness - this would probably be bought as extra DEF, Damage Resistance, and/or Damage Reduction.

4) I always wanted "Fluidification" as a power. The incremental price would allow descreasing viscosity, i.e., the more you spend, the easier you can flow. At a low level, you could become jelly-like; at a medium level, like oil or syrup; at a higher level, like water. Note that this could have the SFX of becoming particles as well: pebbles, sand, powder.

 

I want it all!

 

"Particle Man, Particle Man, doin' the things a particle can." - They Might Be Giants

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Physics Check

 

Originally posted by PhilFleischmann

Remember that density is not the same as solidity.

 

Good point. I think we were looking at game mechanics that might be used for heroes that were based on density decrease - which like you say may or may not involve elements of desolidification.

 

This is one of the areas where Champions powers and effects become quite tricky to disentangle.

 

Originally posted by PhilFleischmann

I don't mean to stifle anyones ideas here. These are all useful power ideas:

1) An incremental Desolidification - passing through solid objects and allowing physical and energy attacks to pass through you without harm (or reduced harm).

 

That is what I have been talking about. I guess that at low levels you might call gravel a 1 or 2 DEF barrier and allow you to flow through it - like that fluidification power you were asking about...

 

Originally posted by PhilFleischmann

2) Density Decrease - reducing mass but maintaining solidity and hardness, making it easier to move, climb, leap, float, etc. and possibly giving other effects as well.

 

This looks like it could possible be a list of small powers in an EC, potentially with related disads (vulnerability to KB and such). Easier to model - less interesting to talk about!

 

Originally posted by PhilFleischmann

I want it all!

 

Which is of course why you play champions!

[prestidigitator]

Re: Physics Check

 

Originally posted by PhilFleischmann

Remember also that density and weight (or mass) do not determine a body's falling speed. Metal and plastic may be equally solid and unequally dense, but they fall at the same speed. Terminal velocity is determined by aerodynamics (shape) not by density (and by the characteristics of the atmosphere of course). The only time density becomes an issue relating to falling is when the object approches the density of the atmosphere. A soap bubble has almost the same density as the surrounding air, since after all it's made of mostly air.

Air resistance is dependent upon shape and velocity. Terminal velocity occurs when the force of air resistance equals the (boyant) weight of the object. Two objects with the same shape but different weights (densities) will have different terminal velocities because air resistance is equal to weight at a different speeds. A metal object and a plastic object with the same shape (and similar distribution so they both fall in the same orientation) will have different terminal velocities. They will also accelerate differently in an atmosphere because the difference between weight and air resistance is different at any particular velocity; however, this is often not very noticable (except in extreme cases like your soap bubble) because for small velocities (boyant) weight is usually much greater than air resistance. I must point out that objects with negative boyant weight (such as helium balloons) also have a terminal velocity (in the upward, rather than downward, direction).

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Re: Physics Check

 

Originally posted by prestidigitator

Two objects with the same shape but different weights (densities) will have different terminal velocities because air resistance is equal to weight at a different speeds.

Whoops! You're right. My bad.