Cover Fire ability. Comments?

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Cover Fire ability. Comments?

 

I have issue with any build which imposes a penalty to the target's CV without taking into account their PRE (or INT/PER to ignore 'distraction'). If the purpose of the build is to actually increase the chance of hitting the target with the bullets then don't use CE or Adjustment powers.

 

To do otherwise violates a core idea of HERO. For every effect there should be an appropriate defense.

 

Ah, I think I understand your position now. Thank you for explaining it.

 

One thought that occured to me is that this maneuver might be similar to the Interpose maneuver. Maybe you take a DCV penalty to gain an OCV penalty later if they don't attack you? Same idea only with guns (i.e. if you don't shoot at me, I will get a bonus to hit you)?

 

Technically true. I was unspecific with the use of the term nobody. I should have said "what if you had a fire so hot the average character..." In reality it depends on how hot the fire is and how resistant the fire elemental is. If it's a 10d6 Blast and the elemental has 10 levels of Energy DC Damage Negation' date=' the fire elemental is not going to get burned.[/quote']

 

This makes sense, but didn't fireg0lem's build just make you immune to the drain if you were immune to the bullets? the same idea should apply to a similar power based around flame jets.

[phookz]

Re: Cover Fire ability. Comments?

 

Ah, I think I understand your position now. Thank you for explaining it.

 

One thought that occured to me is that this maneuver might be similar to the Interpose maneuver. Maybe you take a DCV penalty to gain an OCV penalty later if they don't attack you? Same idea only with guns (i.e. if you don't shoot at me, I will get a bonus to hit you)?

 

 

 

This makes sense, but didn't fireg0lem's build just make you immune to the drain if you were immune to the bullets? the same idea should apply to a similar power based around flame jets.

 

I don't think the drain is about being immune to the flames, it's about the flames causing you to duck and weave to avoid them. What if you're not immune to the flames, you just decide to take the chance that they might burn you? That's the fundamental disconnect.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Cover Fire ability. Comments?

 

Why? That's a pretty blanket statement. You don't think there are things that can make it difficult for someone to aim without also intimidating them into wetting their pants? How about something that makes it physically difficult to follow a target with your weapon as you pull the trigger?

 

Sure, but then you aren't talking about the OP's stated sfx: Covering Fire.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Cover Fire ability. Comments?

 

Sure' date=' but then you aren't talking about the OP's stated sfx: Covering Fire.[/quote']

 

Ah. Okay. It seemed like a more generalized statement than that. Of course, I still don't necessarily agree. It seems quite plausible to shoot at someone--even a fearless someone who can bounce bullets--in such a way as to make it difficult for them to track a target. Heck, it sounds like something Vash the Stampede would do. Now I'd probably have to say it would be a separate maneuver if the original proposal had been a maneuver, but since it is a power, I'd say it could easily be covered by at least "I'm just that bloody good at gun stunts" SFX.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Cover Fire ability. Comments?

 

... It seems quite plausible to shoot at someone--even a fearless someone who can bounce bullets--in such a way as to make it difficult for them to track a target.

 

So what is the defense to such an ability if not PRE or INT/PER?

[Fireg0lem]

Re: Cover Fire ability. Comments?

 

Defense Manuever seems like a sensible option. A targeting sense other than sight is another choice. Of course, there's nothing wrong with having the defense be PRE or INT/PER depending on what SFX you're going for. But saying that those are the only things that anyone should ever use is silly.

[FreeDice]

Re: Cover Fire ability. Comments?

 

Why not just use the rules for Suppression fire?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Cover Fire ability. Comments?

 

Why not just use the rules for Suppression fire?

 

from post #21

 

For a mechanic to create a wall of hot lead with a firearm see:

Suppression Fire (5er, page 397 & 6e2, page 89)

 

The 6e version expands the description a little and even adds a bit about 'pinning targets down'.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Cover Fire ability. Comments?

 

Defense Manuever seems like a sensible option. A targeting sense other than sight is another choice. Of course' date=' there's nothing wrong with having the defense be PRE or INT/PER depending on what SFX you're going for. But saying that those are the [i']only[/i] things that anyone should ever use is silly.

 

What in the default rules about guns & bullet attacks would possibly involve the rules for Defense Maneuver?

Defense Maneuver is all about attacks you aren't expecting*, not ones you ARE already aware of.

Suggesting it as a counterpoint to INT/PER is even sillier.

 

* And nothing has been mentioned in this thread about making bullets IPE (except by me).

[phookz]

Re: Cover Fire ability. Comments?

 

Of course' date=' there's nothing wrong with having the defense be PRE or INT/PER depending on what SFX you're going for. But saying that those are the [i']only[/i] things that anyone should ever use is silly.

 

I agree with this. My stance was simply that if it's fear based (duck or you'll get hit) it should be vs PRE. I also offered another build that was just a distraction to increase the range penalty. I could see that being limited by PER or not, or even allowing other types of perception to get around it.

[Fireg0lem]

Re: Cover Fire ability. Comments?

 

What in the default rules about guns & bullet attacks would possibly involve the rules for Defense Maneuver?

Defense Maneuver is all about attacks you aren't expecting*, not ones you ARE already aware of.

Suggesting it as a counterpoint to INT/PER is even sillier.

 

Defense Manuever also allows you to defend yourself against multiple attackers (it prevents people from getting Teamwork bonuses on you). So it means you're trained to pay attention to multiple things at once (ie, multiple attackers) so it seems reasonable that it would also let you split your focus between the guy using Distracting Shot or whatever on you, and the guy you're trying to attack.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Cover Fire ability. Comments?

 

Defense Manuever also allows you to defend yourself against multiple attackers (it prevents people from getting Teamwork bonuses on you). So it means you're trained to pay attention to multiple things at once (ie' date=' multiple attackers) so it seems reasonable that it would also let you split your focus between the guy using Distracting Shot or whatever on you, and the guy you're trying to attack.[/quote']

 

So you're counter argument to an INT/PER roll is a skill that enhances a character's ability to "pay attention".

That's a stretch.

 

It also requires the defender to spend points instead of making an 'everyman' roll (in the case of INT/PER).

[prestidigitator]

Re: Cover Fire ability. Comments?

 

So what is the defense to such an ability if not PRE or INT/PER?

What's the defense against a Brace? What's the defense against a Block? What's the defense against a Change Environment? IMO there doesn't need to be a defense against this ability. In fact, one could say that this ability is the defense! What's more, it simply offers a penalty; it doesn't do damage or completely negate the ability to attack. The defense against a reduction in CV is an increase in CV.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Cover Fire ability. Comments?

 

... The defense against a reduction in CV is an increase in CV.

 

That's a bit of a hollow argument.

It's like saying the defense against a Drain is an increase in the ability being drained.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Cover Fire ability. Comments?

 

That's a bit of a hollow argument.

It's like saying the defense against a Drain is an increase in the ability being drained.

Except this isn't a Drain. So should Change Environment start working against Power Defense now (or Presence?!). Should things like Dodge only work against opponents you manage to affect with a Presence Attack?