Magic the Gathering Hero?

[AlHazred]

I know Keith Curtis did a color-based magic system similar to the MtG grading system, and elsewhere it was discussed how to build Slivers (a popular MtG monster) in Hero. But has anyone done a large-scale conversion of MtG spells/creatures/items to Hero system terms? I've got someone who wants to build a Blue Mana wizard in my Fantasy Hero game.

[The Main Man]

Re: Magic the Gathering Hero?

 

I and a member of my group have discussed how to make a Magic: The Gathering HERO campaign, and my personal conclusion is that it would primarily be a Superheroic campaign.

 

Each mana color would probably constitute a separate Multipower with a corresponding Endurance Reserve.

[AlHazred]

Re: Magic the Gathering Hero?

 

See, normally I despise looking at other games' mechanics when converting things, but with MtG there's so little to go on. Some thoughts:

 

• There are five distinct "colors" of mana, each of which originates from controlling a different kind of territory and powers a different kind of magic: White (plains), for the magic of Order, Protection, and Light; Blue (islands), for the magic of Knowledge, Manipulation, and Illusion; Black (swamps), for the magic of Darkness, Ambition, and Death; Red (mountains), for the magic of Freedom, Emotion, and Impulse; and, Green (forests), for the magic of Growth, Instinct, and Nature. In order to use a card from your hand, you must enough mana to power it; only lands cost no mana to play. This sounds like some sort of Endurance Reserve, specifically five of them, which every mage must have.
  
• Every player is a planeswalker (and some cards represent subsidiary planeswalkers as well), the one-in-a-million character who is born with the inherent "spark" that allows passage between planes. Planeswalkers used to have a host of powers, but now the only power they all have is the ability to travel from plane to connecting plane; so, the most important characters have some form of EDM. In travelling the planes, planeswalkers learn magic spells, ally themselves with weird creatures and learn the methods of summoning them, and otherwise build alliances that the cards represent. So, not every card is going to be a Hero System Power.
  
• All creatures have two values: Power and Toughness. Power represents how well they can attack other creatures or planeswalkers, while toughness shows how much punishment they can resist. Direct translation of creatures from MtG to Hero looks pretty much impossible; it'll be a case-by-case basis.
  

Specific spell cards should be easy enough:

 

• White spells include cleansing and healing magic, blinding light, and devastating waves of purifying energy. White-aligned creatures are orderly, defensive, and cooperative. They gather fast and strike first. White mages summon majestic angels to devastate the unworthy. Legions of soldiers and knights form effective armies under a white mage's command. The soldiers might be small individually, but together they are overwhelming.
  
• Blue spells include crashing waves, whirlpools of Æther, and even manipulations of time itself. Blue-aligned creatures try to deceive their opponents or trick them into using magic in a way they didn't intend. Blue-aligned creatures often confuse, disguise themselves, or steal things from their enemies. Blue mages call wizards and weird beasts of the air and oceans to serve them. They summon crafty sphinxes, ferocious drakes, and elusive sprites. Titanic leviathans surface from the depths of the ocean to do their bidding.
  
• Black spells are tendrils of corrupting shadow, command over the undead, and projection of crippling nightmares into the minds of enemies. Undead skeletons and ghouls, unspeakable horrors, and diabolical demons are native to places of black mana, and they're as self-serving and treacherous as the mages who control them. Black magic isn't limited to these abominations, though—death-cultists and secret societies of assassins carry out black mages' nefarious plans under cover of darkness. Black mages control the most horrifying of creatures, but always at a price.
  
• Red spells include rains of meteors, searing bolts of lightning, and huge gouts of flame. Red-aligned creatures are warlike, frenzied, and dangerous. Red mages summon mighty dragons to dominate the skies. They send hordes of bloodthirsty barbarians or rampaging goblins to lay waste to their enemies. They also channel mystical energy and summon fire elementals of merciless power and destruction. Red creatures rage across the landscape cutting down anything that stands in their way.
  
• Green spells include wild, lush growth, sudden predatory hunger, and the might of an entire stampede. Green mages summon a huge variety of creatures, from forest-dwelling animals to territorial elves and awe-inspiring behemoths. Some green creatures are living wellsprings of mana; others overrun their foes in a mighty rush of ferocious power. From towering nature elementals to carnivorous wurms, green creatures are the biggest and mightiest around.
  

Not sure yet how to tie lands to mana. Some sort of Limitation on the REC of the Endurance Reserve seems appropriate but what?

[The Main Man]

Re: Magic the Gathering Hero?

 

I think that Endurance Reserves should start at 0 END to simulate the drawing of more and more lands. Think of the maximum END in the reserve as the maximum number of lands in your deck. Green may specialize in Aiding END Reserve while Red may specialize in Draining it.

[The Main Man]

Re: Magic the Gathering Hero?

 

My friend and I assume that 1 Power (and thusly every point of damage) roughly corresponds to 3 Damage Classes in HERO. It's still a case by case process, but it's a helpful starting point.

 

Similarly, every point of Toughness provides 3 Physical and Energy Defense, possibly raise BODY, CON, and STUN by the same number of points. Damage Reducers could be simulated with Damage Negation.

[AlHazred]

Re: Magic the Gathering Hero?

 

I think that Endurance Reserves should start at 0 END to simulate the drawing of more and more lands. Think of the maximum END in the reserve as the maximum number of lands in your deck. Green may specialize in Aiding END Reserve while Red may specialize in Draining it.

Looking over the kinds of spells you're supposed to find in the various colors' date=' I don't think a straight "Aid Powers are Green" rule would work. The various colors do similar things in different ways.

My friend and I assume that 1 Power (and thusly every point of damage) roughly corresponds to 3 Damage Classes in HERO. It's still a case by case process, but it's a helpful starting point.

 

Similarly, every point of Toughness provides 3 Physical and Energy Defense, possibly raise BODY, CON, and STUN by the same number of points. Damage Reducers could be simulated with Damage Negation.

As hard and fast guidelines, I guess that's not bad. I would go this way instead:

 

• Every round in MtG corresponds to an entire Turn of Hero System combat. In MtG, you can play as many cards as you like, so long as you can pay the mana costs; in Hero Terms, this is best reflected with the Turn being default. This works particularly well considering I like the Endurance Reserve for mana, and END Reserves Recover every Turn.
  
• For every +1 in one of those, you get 10 (or 15) points' worth of the relevant stuff, just as a hard-and-fast rule-of-thumb.
  
  • Power corresponds to STR, EGO, OCV, OMCV, and Flash/Mental Blast/Blast/Killing Attack Damage Classes, depending on desired effect.
    
  • Toughness corresponds to CON, DCV, PD/ED, rPD/rED, BODY, STUN, Mental Defense, Power Defense, Flash Defense, Damage Negation, and Damage Reduction, depending on desired effect.
    
  • Either one can correspond to Aid or Transform, depending on desired effect.
    

  [*]For every point of mana, expect the card's effect to cost 2 (or 3) points of END.

For instance:

"Target creature gets +3/+3." --> Looking at the flavor text, "immortal strength" implies some sort of Aid effect. You might build this card this way:

38...Angelic Blessing: Aid STR, BODY, and STUN 6d6, Expanded Effect (+1) (72 Active Points); Only to Aid Others (-1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4), Concentration (1/2 DCV; -1/4) plus Flight 12m (12 Active Points); Usable By Other (-1/4), Grantor can only grant the power to others, Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4), Concentration (1/2 DCV; -1/4)...END=8

Note that 7 END is what the caster actually spends; the extra END is for the movement which will be paid for by the recipient. And I would rule that 3 END must come from the caster's White Mana END Reserve, with the other 4 coming from wherever else.

[AlHazred]

Re: Magic the Gathering Hero?

 

I'm toying with the idea that the REC on the END Reserves has an Extra Time limitation, and that effects that fiddle with Lands might Suppress or Dispel the REC. On the one hand, this seems like a good equivalence, on the other hand I'm having a hard time considering the ramifications of things like "destroy all lands" (massive Supress?) or "target land goes in the graveyard" (Dispel?), or "target land is exiled" (extended Suppress?!?)

[The Main Man]

Re: Magic the Gathering Hero?

 

Speaking of which, I think that the END in the reserve would simulate the potential maximum mana of a deck, but it's the REC that would simulate the lands themselves. What if REC started low and then had to build up somehow? I'm thinking an Aid REC for END Reserve would work as a standard power.

[AlHazred]

Re: Magic the Gathering Hero?

 

I could go either way. The land rules are a little convoluted.

305. Lands

305.1. A player who has priority may play a land card from his or her hand during a main phase of his or her turn when the stack is empty. Playing a land is a special action; it doesn’t use the stack (see rule 115). Rather, the player simply puts the land onto the battlefield. Since the land doesn’t go on the stack, it is never a spell, and players can’t respond to it with instants or activated abilities.

305.2. A player may normally play only one land during his or her turn; however, continuous effects may increase this number. If any such effects exist, the player announces which effect, or this rule, applies to each land play as it happens.

305.3. A player can’t play a land, for any reason, if it isn’t his or her turn. Ignore any part of an effect that instructs a player to do so. Similarly, a player can’t play a land, for any reason, if that player has used all of his or her land plays for that turn. Ignore any part of an effect that instructs a player to do so.

305.4. Effects may also allow players to “put” lands onto the battlefield. This isn’t the same as “playing a land” and doesn’t count as a player’s one land played during his or her turn.

305.5. Land subtypes are always a single word and are listed after a long dash. Land subtypes are also called land types. Lands may have multiple subtypes. See rule 204.3h for the complete list of land types.

Example: “Basic Land — Mountain” means the card is a land with the subtype Mountain.

305.6. The basic land types are Plains, Island, Swamp, Mountain, and Forest. If an object uses the words “basic land type,” it’s referring to one of these subtypes. A land with a basic land type has the intrinsic ability “{T}: Add [mana symbol] to your mana pool,” even if the text box doesn’t actually contain that text or the object has no text box. For Plains, [mana symbol] is {W}; for Islands, {U}; for Swamps, {B}; for Mountains, {R}; and for Forests, {G}. See rule 107.4a. Also see rule 605, “Mana Abilities.”

305.7. If an effect changes a land’s subtype to one or more of the basic land types, the land no longer has its old land type. It loses all abilities generated from its rules text and its old land types, and it gains the appropriate mana ability for each new basic land type. Note that this doesn’t remove any abilities that were granted to the land by other effects. Changing a land’s subtype doesn’t add or remove any card types (such as creature) or supertypes (such as basic, legendary, and snow) the land may have. If a land gains one or more land types in addition to its own, it keeps its land types and rules text, and it gains the new land types and mana abilities.

305.8. Any land with the supertype “basic” is a basic land. Any land that doesn’t have this supertype is a nonbasic land, even if it has a basic land type.

305.9. If an object is both a land and another card type, it can be played only as a land. It can’t be cast as a spell.

While it's an attractive idea to imagine the END Reserve as having no REC, only an Aid, I don't know that that will feel the same in play.

[Ice9]

Re: Magic the Gathering Hero?

 

If we're trying to match the effect, then the END reserve should have END = REC, since it refills fully each turn. Then there's two ways to do the lands:

 

1) The END reserve actually has zero REC/END to start with. A land would look like this (assuming that 1 Mana = 4 END):

Forest - Aid (Boost) Green Mana 1d6 (standard effect: 4 END, 4 REC), 1 recoverable continuing charge lasting 20 minutes, Lockout (Only one land may be played per Turn; -1/4)

The recoverable continuing charge representing that you can only play it once during a battle, and it lasts the entire battle. If you have multiple forests, get multiple charges.

 

2) The END reserve has the maximum amount of REC/END, with a custom limitation that only the an amount corresponding to the lands you've played is available.

Lands aren't even written as powers, "playing a land" is just using an action to enable more of your END Reserve.

[The Main Man]

Re: Magic the Gathering Hero?

 

An Aid or Boost to END and REC may be on the right track. The END Reserve itself could be bought with 0 END and 0 REC - it gets its supply from the Aid/Boost.

 

The Aid could be 1d6 and then a bunch of extra dice could be bought to raise the maximum effect. Each +1d6 effectively represents 1 land. Might the Aid use END from the character itself to represent the drawing of cards?

[Badger]

Re: Magic the Gathering Hero?

 

Well, I have thought about having a supervillain who essentially can "animate" his cards. So, he essentially plays a kind of MtG game against the heroes. But, I never really have gotten around to taking it anywhere. (Mainly because I dont where to begin in creation)

[casualplayer]

Re: Magic the Gathering Hero?

 

I know Keith Curtis did a color-based magic system similar to the MtG grading system' date=' and elsewhere it was discussed how to build Slivers (a popular MtG monster) in Hero. But has anyone done a large-scale conversion of MtG spells/creatures/items to Hero system terms? I've got someone who wants to build a Blue Mana wizard in my Fantasy Hero game.[/quote']

 

Does he just want to have Air/Water/Illusion/Redirection/Counterspell-themed abilities or does he want the whole Mana-tap schtick and restriction? Does he want the random access to his spells that drawing them out of a deck gives you?

 

I would think he would want full access to his repertoire of spells and essentially 4-6 mana sources already in play, lands and artifacts and such. Whether it comes from a Blue mana battery hanging around his neck (OAF) or an island somewhere than he has magically claimed as his own (IIF) I would say that all mana sources are Foci feeding an END Reserve. I would buy the Reserve intrinsic to the character and the REC of the Reserve piecemeal to represent the many sources of mana flowing in.

 

A couple of choice Summons, drakes and seacreatures, maybe a flying carpet, the ability to poke someone like Tim, and some other things that scream Blue and he should be happy.

[Ice9]

Re: Magic the Gathering Hero?

 

The Aid could be 1d6 and then a bunch of extra dice could be bought to raise the maximum effect.

Whoops, you're right, my previous "charges" concept wouldn't actually stack. Maybe something like this:

 

Green Mana - END Reserve (0 END, 0 REC).

10 Forests - Aid(Boost) Green Mana 1d6 (std effect: 4 END, 4 REC), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Limited (One land per turn; -1/2), Self Only (-1/2), 4 points.

PLUS Aid(Boost) Green Mana +4d6, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Limited (One land per turn; -1/2), Self Only (-1/2), Limited (Only to Add to Maximum; -1), 12 points.

 

I set "Only once per turn" at the -1/2 level because it seemed somewhat comparable to Lockout, and also is about half the value of Extra Time (1 turn). Arguably, it could be as high as -1.

If you want putting the lands into play to take some personal effort, switch Reduced Endurance to Only Costs END to Activate, which would reduce the price to 14 points.

[AlHazred]

Re: Magic the Gathering Hero?

 

I would make it "One Land Per Phase" at -1/4 -- at one Land per Turn, many fights will be over before the mage has enough mana to cast more than two spells, especially since the Reserve will still only REC every Turn; it just seems a little un-Magic-like.

 

In that regard, it could be changed like so:

Connected To Ten Forests: (Total: 75 Active Cost, 22 Real Cost) Aid Green Mana END and REC 1d6 (standard effect: 3 points), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Delayed Return Rate (points return at the rate of 5 per Minute; +1); Only to Aid Self (-1) (Real Cost: 7) plus Aid Green Mana END and REC +4d6, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Delayed Return Rate (points return at the rate of 5 per Minute; +1); Only To Increase Maximum Effect (-2), Only to Aid Self (-1) (Real Cost: 15)

We set up a ratio of 2/3 to REC (total of 3 per use) and 1/3 to END (total of 4 per use). This gives a maximum effect of 30 points, or 40 END, 30 REC. If we declare that we only get 3 END for each 1 point put into the END Reserve then it becomes more elegant, though we're shorting ourselves a bunch of points.

 

The problem with this construction is that Aid is an Attack action. It takes a Half-Phase and ends your turn. So, you're either drawing on the power of your Lands, or you're casting Lightning Axe.

[AlHazred]

Re: Magic the Gathering Hero?

 

I found this story, which gives an interesting perspective on what's "supposed to happen" in the "real world" of the MtG Multiverse.

[csyphrett]

Re: Magic the Gathering Hero?

 

From the story, it looks like wizards attach themselves to lands and objects and the land gives them strength to summon their creatures. Wouldn't summon be the main power then?

CES

[AlHazred]

Re: Magic the Gathering Hero?

 

Sure, Summon's important, but there's also the Lightning Bolts, Holy Shield, and so on. Magic has a lot of card types, each of which represents a specific type of power.

 

• Artifact: Objects of power, magic items, adventuring equipment, and the like. These would be standard items like you'd find in any Fantasy Hero game.
  
• Creature: Allies, summoned entities, and so on. Some of these are more like adventuring companions than minions, but mechanically they work the same -- I guess "in game" they only really have something important to do when their card is played.
  
• Enchantment: These are long-term magical effects. The two types are Shrine and Aura. They're usually easily portrayed using Change Environment.
  
• Instant: These are spells that resolve instantly (oddly enough) and are then discarded. Many Instant Hero System Powers are appropriate for modeling these spells.
  
• Land: These are the resources that provide mana the wizard can use to cast spells. You can only play one Land per Turn, and without large reserves of mana you can't get your most impressive effects out. The Land Types are Forests, Islands, Mountains, Plains, and Swamps.
  
• Plane: These cards represent the terrain in which the battles take place, and provide extra rules to represent their special uniqueness until the Plane is changed. The Planar Types are Alara, Arkhos, Bolas’s Meditation Realm, Dominaria, Equilor, Iquatana, Ir, Kaldheim, Kamigawa, Karsus, Lorwyn, Luvion, Mercadia, Mirrodin, Moag, Muraganda, Phyrexia, Pyrulea, Rabiah, Rath, Ravnica, Segovia, Serra’s Realm, Shadowmoor, Shandalar, Ulgrotha, Valla, Wildfire, and Zendikar. Most of these have been the focus of an expansion set or three (Alara).
  
• Planeswalker: These are other planeswalkers. They don't fight like normal Creatures being far too powerful for that. Instead, they have a single stat (Loyalty) and when it goes to zero they leave. The Planeswalkers are Ajani, Bolas, Chandra, Elspeth, Garruk, Gideon, Jace, Liliana, Nissa, Sarkhan, Sorin, and Tezzeret. I believe all of these have been featured in the MtG novels, and thus they are considered "iconic" characters.
  
• Scheme: These cards represent some type of ongoing plot that affects the fight. Each scheme card modifies play in a specific way and takes effect until the scheme is changed.
  
• Sorcery: These are also spells. The types are Arcane and Trap. They can be reflected with a vast reach of Hero System Powers.
  
• Tribal: This type modifies some other card, like "Tribal Enchantment - Merfolk". Basically, it's best represented with some sort of Limited Power determining who can use a spell/item/whatever, or who can be affected by the same.
  
• Vanguard: I think these special cards represent important characters from the setting. When you have the Urza Vanguard card out, I think that's supposed to mean you're actually playing Urza doing the actions you're doing. Essentially they provide added abilities to reflect the characters' unique talents, but they also reduce your maximum hand size.
  

[Shadowsoul]

Re: Magic the Gathering Hero?

 

I think that that story may be a little outdated now. Magical talent in no way guarantees an ability to planewalk. While mages learn or draw upon the five elements like planeswalkers they are not the same and I'm not sure if they have to pull power from entire landscapes. Also, there are now two kinds of planeswalkers. Proper planeswalkers, the old fashioned demi-god like beings who have complete control over their physical form, wield immense power, do not need to breathe, eat, drink or age and are almost unkillable since their 'spark' can simply escape corporeal death by travelling to another plane and regenerating. And planejumpers, the new breed of vastly watered down planeswalkers who can still move between the planes but otherwise have little more than their own magical talents to rely on.

 

Although they are frankly pathetic in comparison to their predecessors planejumpers would seem to be a better choice for player characters as they would actually fear death and would be comparatively easy build.

 

Of course the multiverse of the Magic: The Gathering is teeming with high adventure for normal heroes as well. You could have a lot of fun on a single plane or with a party who use artificial means of moving between planes.

 

Players could be a band of Dominarans following a trail of artificial portals in order to hunt down a surviving group of Phyrexians. Or Cho-Arrim rebels seeking to free themselves from Mercadian rule. Or mercenaries battling against marauding Keldon.

 

You could even have PCs who actually work for a planeswalker. They may live on separate planes but they are periodically summoned to do battle with alien creatures. The focus of the campaign might be bringing down an opposing planeswalker or perhaps escaping the control of their master.