Input on Magic

[Nightshade]

I've been doing some work on magic for my fantasy world, and came to the conclusion that I need to do a lot of work on magic for my fantasy world. Looking through my world writeups, I have found references to/characters for/villians using 23 different styles of magic(!). It has also been pointed out that most of my players would much rather be able to pick precosted spells than build their own, although some would also like to build their own, as well.

 

Some of the work will be done by my buying the FHG (thanks Steve & Co!), but there will need to be a lot of work done by me to get everything I want done, done.

 

Now, here's the question I have. Since I have so many different styles of magic, what should be the minimum and maximum number of spells for each style. The last thing that I want would be a style that is way too overpowered, or (worse) one that is so limited that no one would ever use it.

 

Thanks!

 

Nightshade

[Jeff]

Could you say a bit more about the magic system(s) in use, particularly about how magic is bought for the character? If they have to pay for spells normally, I'm not sure how much reason there is for a maximum number of spells in a given style. If they're paying a flat amount for access to all the spells of the style as in some of the FH magic systems, it's quite another story.

[Greatwyrm]

As mentioned above, how you set up your magic system will decide a lot of this. However, here are some things I've seen in other games that may help you out.

 

In 2eAD&D, the Complete Wizard's Handbook suggested something along the lines of no less than one spell per level. Usually, lower levels (1-3) had at least two or three spells. Mid levels (4-6) usually had one or two. High levels (7-9) had at least one. This allowed for something mages could get in their specific school when they levelled, but still allowed plenty of room for new spell research. If you're talking about a new field of magical research, think about those guidelines.

 

In Talislanta, 4e if I remember correctly, they figure there are really only 12 or so magicall effects and all spells are just variations on those. Bolt attacks, shields, divinations, summons, and some more I can't remember. This isn't all that different from the D&D spell schools. However, you could say that there are only so many things people have figured out how to do with magic and all known spells are just variations on those X number of effects.

 

Finally, Rolemaster had pretty specialized spell lists for just about any field of magic you can think of. I believe there were 20 or 30 spells in each one. Of course, they also had about 300 spell lists. I doubt you feel like making 9000 spells up ahead of time. The point is, if you want to make a system where characters have access to a varying number of specialized fields, you'll probably want to put more spells in them to balance the specialized nature of the effects.

 

Just my $0.02 (USD). Exact change only, please.

[Nightshade]

Good idea. It might help if I posted some details.

 

This is how magic works (system wise).

 

Each spell style requires a skill roll and endurance reserve, which will power the spells. All spells must cost endurance, requires a skill roll, have side effects, and an additional -1 limitation. The entire cost of the spell must be paid for.

 

So, if you were playing a wizard with spells in the Empathy school, you must have an Empathy spell skill roll, Empathy END Res, and then the Empathy spells. If that character then wanted to branch out and get some Storm Sorcery spells, that character would need to buy another skill roll, end reserve, and then the spells.

 

This is why the number of spells per style is important. I want to make it so that people won't necessarily have to buy into another style because they ran out of spells.

 

Does this make sense?

 

Nightshade

[Greatwyrm]

I'd say you'd at least want 20 or so spells in each group. If you only had to buy another power skill, that would be one thing. But if you're paying for an additional END reserve and the real costs of the spells, that's going to get expensive in a hurry.

 

I wouldn't look at too many people branching out of their primary specialty. Even if they did, I'd have to believe it wouldn't be for anything but some lower level utility spells that their chosen field just doesn't provide.

[Nightshade]

Originally posted by Greatwyrm

I'd say you'd at least want 20 or so spells in each group. If you only had to buy another power skill, that would be one thing. But if you're paying for an additional END reserve and the real costs of the spells, that's going to get expensive in a hurry.

 

I wouldn't look at too many people branching out of their primary specialty. Even if they did, I'd have to believe it wouldn't be for anything but some lower level utility spells that their chosen field just doesn't provide.

 

Exactly. This is the feel I want (specialists are the norm), but I don't want to preclude someone getting more than one style. Powerful characters and villians may have mastered more than one style.

 

But, like I said, I need to make it such that there are enough spells in every style to make it worthwhile to take at all. I want every style to have enough versatility to stand on its own and have interesting effects, but have enough limitations and effects that there are always weaknesses to the style.

 

How many spells are necessary to get that feel? How many are too many?

 

Nightshade

[Greatwyrm]

Well, what schools of magic, specifically are we looking at here? How many there are and what they do are important.

[Jeff]

Originally posted by Nightshade

Exactly. This is the feel I want (specialists are the norm), but I don't want to preclude someone getting more than one style. Powerful characters and villians may have mastered more than one style.

 

But, like I said, I need to make it such that there are enough spells in every style to make it worthwhile to take at all. I want every style to have enough versatility to stand on its own and have interesting effects, but have enough limitations and effects that there are always weaknesses to the style.

 

How many spells are necessary to get that feel? How many are too many?

 

Nightshade

I think it'd be enough just not to include some effects in any given style and make sure some limitations are universal within it. Let the variety fill out as much as you like otherwise.

 

Similarly, I don't think a minimum quantity of spells in a style will ensure that it will have enough to stand on its own, not if they don't manage to hit crucial functions between them. Just make sure they cover those when you're writing up the spells for each style.

[bjbrown]

The best thing to do is not necessarily focus on the actual number of spells per sphere. If you want each sphere to be fairly self-sufficient, then each sphere should cover the basics that almost every spell-caster would want.

I think the general categories are: attack, defense, movement, and information (including sensory). You should probably aim for one to two spells in each of those categories. Then fill out the the spheres with spells that make the spheres unique. So maybe Empathy has the Mental Powers, Storm might have Change Environment and then a spell variations with area of effect, and things like that. The result is that no sphere leaves a character without a spell that he needs, but each sphere is different enough to make choice between the spheres meaningful.

That would be slightly different than the magic system in my Fantasy Hero game- which is somewhat a low magic game. Most of the spheres of magic in my game have one important category of spell (attack, defense, movement, information) left out, so any character who wants enough magic to do everything will need at least two spheres.

[JTesla]

I’m also looking at developing my system. Being a big fan of Rolemaster, I am looking to have a large number of specialists, the ability to have some crossover and a very wide variety of spells both in raw number and function. One way in which Rolemaster cheated in terms of number of spells was to make a few basic spells and then have more powerful versions at higher level. You would have Bolt I at level 5, Bolt II at 8, Bolt III at 20 or something to that effect. This works best if you have players who do not wish to tinker with spells. If the players want more of a hand at it, let them develop their own high level spells, just provide them the beginning framework.

 

One thing that I would avoid, is to have every branch of magic cover every need. Make one or two branches that have a little bit of everything but have others that focus on one thing and do it the best. A Seer could make a great character, sure they don’t blow things up or shield the party but they have fun utility spells that drive the GM nuts. A Necromancer can do some things like a Seer they just can’t do it as well but, they sure can summon. However, for raw damage they can’t touch an Elementalist.

 

Without focused specializations you have a bunch of magic schools that simply mirror each other. The players and NPC’s will be casting spells X, Y, and Z all from different schools of magic and realize that they are really the same spell. Spice it up by emphasizing strengths and weaknesses.

[Killer Shrike]

As a side note, here is the magic system I plan to use for my next Fantasy HERO campaign: http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/GreyHEROContent/Magic.htm

 

That aside, for your purposes I would suggest defining what types of magics exist in your setting, and then for each type defining what each type of magic can and cant do in general terms, what they excel at, what they arent so good at, and what they cant do at all.

 

You could also asign point caps to types of Powers (Attack, Defense, Movement, Adjustment, Mental, Special) and specific powers, and you can also forbid certain Powers for certain types of magic outright. You could also offer exemptions on point caps for certain Advantages if you arent afraid of a little complexity.

 

Thus in such a system you might have:

 

Eskalonik Magic: Developed by a warlike society, this type of magic excels at Attack spells, particularly with a battlefield application. AP Caps: Attack: 120, Defense: 90, Movement: 30, Adjustment: 15, Mental: 15, Special: 15; Exemption: Megascale up to +1/2 does not count against Active Point Caps; Exclusion: May not take Extra Time beyond 1 Turn; Restrictions: May not use Summon, Transform, or Extra Dimensional Movement

 

z'Ur-ashi Magic: Developed by an agrarian culture spread across vast plains, this type of magic excels at communication, travel, information, and practical magic. AP Caps: Attack: 30, Defense: 90, Movement: 90, Adjustment: 120, Mental: 90, Special: 60; Exemption: No AP restrictions on Teleport, Clairsentience, Transform; Exclusion: May not apply Advantages to Attack Spells; Restrictions: Must take 1/2 DCV Concentration on all Spells

 

Lakandan Magic: Developed by a culture that worshiped natural forces, this type of magic is founded on elemental energies. AP Caps: Attack: 90, Defense: 90, Movement: 90, Adjustment: 30, Mental: 0, Special: 30; Exemption: Non-Mental Clairsentience has an AP Cap of 90; Exclusion: None; Restriction: All spells must involve Earth, Air, Fire, and/or Water in their SFX.

 

etc etc etc

 

Then, you can provide a few sample spells for each and let players fill in the rest (with GM veto in effect of course).

 

IMO, you'll end up with a much more interesting body of magic spells if you allow more people input than if 1 person does all the work themselves....

[Nightshade]

I like the ideas given so far. The restrictions/limitations idea from Killer Shrike is very good. As to having players help out with spell ideas, that would work if I could ever find any players.

 

Because it was asked, here is a list of the spell styles that I am currently planning on having:

 

Abjuration

Alchemy

Chaos Sorcery

Conjuration

Crystalism

Diablism

Divination

Druidism

Elementalism

Empathy

Illusion

Infernalism

Kleptomancy

Lumineurgy (light based magic)

Mysteries of Night (darknes based magic)

Necromancy

Plant Magic

Spiritualism (Shamanism)

Totemic Magic

Transfiguration

Vitancy

Weather Sorcery

Witchcraft

 

Of those, Chaos Sorcery, Mysteries of Night, Diablism, Infernalism, and Druidism are all practiced by cults/specific groups, so they need special attention on my part to make them work for what I need them for.

 

Each spell style will have an internal structure to it, as well as strengths/weaknesses within the style.

 

Some styles will have Circles, where you have to know a certain number of spells of one Circle before you can start taking spells of the next Circle. This is pretty similar to what was done with the spell colleges in Fantasy HERO for 4th ed. This will be worth a limitation (-1/2) for the spells.

 

Some styles will have Tiered spells, where spells will have multiple layers that can be purchased. For example, Abjuration has 4 Tiers (Personal, Place, Other, Group). In order to get Group, you have to have Other, Place, and Personal.

 

Some will be Connected, where you have to have a certain spell prerequisite in order to get other spells. Connected styles will have a limitation (-1/2) on their spells.

 

And finally, some styles will have Paths. A Path is a subgroup of a spell style that will require its own skill roll, but will be powered by a single END Reserve. This will be for larger schools (like Elementalism), where you are drawing on similar magical power, but are dealing with different aspects.

 

Of course, a particular style may have more than one structure. For example, the Mysteries of Night have Circles and Tiers.

 

One thing that I do want, though, is the ability to add styles as time goes on. If a player comes up with a new style of magic, then I want them to be able to create it and incorporate it into my world. Most of these styles were actually created by people playing in my game in the past or used by me in my plots.

 

Comments are more than welcome!

 

Nightshade

[Killer Shrike]

Thats a fairly long list. Could you post what you have so far in the way of details for each of them?

[JTesla]

Very nice list and good detail for fleshing out the system!

 

A few questions: Are you thinking of breaking Elementalism into separate branches based on each element? And Are some of the styles going to be more compatible with others; so a player could learn Abjuration and Illusion but Witchcraft would be too radically different?

[Killer Shrike]

It might be interesting to come up with a Magic Style chart similar to the Language chart, offering a point break for certain styles if you know certain other styles......

[Greatwyrm]

Originally posted by Killer Shrike

It might be interesting to come up with a Magic Style chart similar to the Language chart, offering a point break for certain styles if you know certain other styles......

 

That's an idea I'd like to see.

[Nightshade]

Here is some additional details for each style (although not the individual spells). I had not considered doing a magic similarity chart. I do like that idea. I may look into that.

 

Abjuration (Tiered - Personal, Place, Other, Group)

Alchemy (Connected)

Chaos Sorcery (Tiered & Connected)

Conjuration (Circles & Tiers)

Crystalism (Circles - Common, Semi-precious, Precious)

Diablism (Connected & Tiers)

Divination (Connected)

Druidism (Paths - Land, Sky, Sea)

Elementalism (Paths - Earth, Air, Fire, Water, Metal)

Empathy (Connected)

Illusion (Tiered)

Infernalism (Circles and Connected)

Kleptomancy (Tiered)

Lumineurgy (light based magic) (Circles - Initiate, Adept, Journeyman, Master)

Mysteries of Night (darknes based magic) (Circles and Tiers)

Necromancy (Paths - Flesh, Bone, Spirit)

Plant Magic (Connected)

Spiritualism (Shamanism) (Circles - Quest, Shaman, Teacher, Master)

Totemic Magic (Connected)

Transfiguration (Connected)

Vitancy (Circles)

Weather Sorcery (Tiered)

Witchcraft (Paths - White & Black)

 

I am hoping that a lot of the work for Necromancy, Druidism, Elementalism, Divination, Witchcraft, Conjuration, Alchemy, Illusion, and possibly Transfiguration will be done in the FHG.

 

I am almost done with Abjuration and Mysteries of Night. I am about 1/2 way through Totemic Magic and Diablism. I have some work done on Plant Magic. So, I am still in the beginning stages, but the hard part was coming up with how magic works, then looking up everything that I want/have used. Now, I think that I can knock out a spell style in about 2-3 hours, complete with setting info, history, spell write-ups and system writeups, depending on the size of the style.

 

The spell style that I have the most completed (as in I think I have all of the spells basically done) is Abjuration. The Abjuration style has 20 different spells, which are basically pretty specific protections along with a few spells that are magical traps for offense (which are mostly non-lethal). As each spell has 4 tiers, and if you have the higher tier, you can still cast the lower tier version, if you like, there are 80 somewhat different effects for this one style.

 

Nightshade

[Killer Shrike]

Could you give some specific examples of the connected, tiered, and similar references? Thanx!

[Nightshade]

An example of a Tiered spell is the following from Abjuration:

 

Glowing Shield of Kiandu:

 

+3 DCV (All around CSL) (can only be used for defense -1/2, requires a skill roll -1/2, costs end -1/2, side effects if failed skill roll -1/2, incantations -1/4, gestures -1/4, visible -1/4, iaf [piece of shield] -1/2]) 5 points (Personal Tier)

 

Other Tier - (UBO, does not lose power +1(?)) 5 points

 

Group Tier - (UBO, 8 people, ranged) However many points.

 

I don't have the spell writeup or even FREd with me, so I don't know that all the limitations or advantages are right, but basically the idea is you take a spell. Then, for the next tier, you get to expand the spell in some specific way. In the case of abjuration, you get to increase who/what you can affect, starting with a single person, then a place, then another single person, then a group of people.

 

Just for clarity, I don't allow non-tiered spells to gain in power, which gives the more focused spell groups an advantage over the other, more "useful" spell groups.

 

Connected spell groups just have prerequisite spells that have to be learned before you can learn the spell. For example, in order to learn an Alchemical spell (or should I say formula?) that lowers the victim's strength, one would have to learn the spell that augments strength first.

 

Circles are basically what the old Fantasy HERO College system sort of used, where you have basic spells, then intermediate spells, and then advanced spells, so you need so many points of the basic to be able to buy intermediate, and so many points in spells before you can become advanced. The only real difference for my game is that the Circles have names in my game, not every group has them, and there may be 3, 4 or more. Since they are limited by this, I apply a -1/2 limitation to all spell styles that use Circles. As I require a -1 limitation in addition to RSR, End cost (if required), and side effects, this means that the other requirements of the spells aren't quite so bad in terms of the limitations.

 

Paths are for large magical systems that control related magics. For example, Necromancy has the Bone, Flesh, and Spirit paths. Each Path requires its own skill roll, but the character only needs a single END reserve. That way, you could have a Necromancer specializing in Bone spells, but dabbling in Flesh spells and Spirit spells and not have to buy a separate END reserve. I only used paths were I knew that there would be a lot of spells and where categories would be pretty easily seen (Elementalism, Necromancy, etc.

 

Does this make sense?

 

Nightshade

[Markdoc]

Just on the off chance you missed it, try here:

 

http://www.geocities.com/markdoc.geo/Gaming_stuff/Grimoire/the_ultimate_grimoire.htm

 

there are a bunch of spells sorted into various categories:

 

Alchemy

Animal Magic

Artifice

Divination

Enchantment

Elementalism- spirit, air, flesh, water, wood, earth, metal, or fire.

Illusion

Metamagic

Necromancy

Nature Magic

Plant Magic

Summoning (also called Conjuration or Invocation)

Plus:

Spells useful in combat

Spells useful in combat, but non-lethal in effect

Darkness or Shadow magic

Spells that involve travel through, or alteration of, dimensional boundaries

Spells employing the use of mystical, but tangible, force.

Spells used by "good" organisations - those generally opposing demon-worship and necromancy

Healing or Curative magic

Spells of ice or cold

Spells using light (and sometimes heat, though not fire)

Spells employing electricity

Spells which have a lunar component or are affected by lunar cycles

Spells employing sound as their major effect, or affecting the perception of sound

Spells affecting time

Spells of travel

 

As for the question of number of spells, I don't feel that each school should cover all the bases: it takes away from the falvour if they are all the same (this was major complaint about the spells in the old FH).

 

A few schools could have as few as 5 or 6 spells and still be interesting to players (and others) if the spells were useful (ie: the "inflict nasty damage" spell is always popular) and costly enough to allow the player to invest a chunk of points.

 

cheers, Mark

[Killer Shrike]

Bump

 

Hey, Nightshade, you've had 2 months to work on this -- any progress to share?

[Muldegian]

Originally posted by Killer Shrike

 

You could also asign point caps to types of Powers (Attack, Defense, Movement, Adjustment, Mental, Special) and specific powers, and you can also forbid certain Powers for certain types of magic outright. You could also offer exemptions on point caps for certain Advantages if you arent afraid of a little complexity.

 

Thus in such a system you might have:

 

Eskalonik Magic: Developed by a warlike society, this type of magic excels at Attack spells, particularly with a battlefield application. AP Caps: Attack: 120, Defense: 90, Movement: 30, Adjustment: 15, Mental: 15, Special: 15; Exemption: Megascale up to +1/2 does not count against Active Point Caps; Exclusion: May not take Extra Time beyond 1 Turn; Restrictions: May not use Summon, Transform, or Extra Dimensional Movement

 

z'Ur-ashi Magic: Developed by an agrarian culture spread across vast plains, this type of magic excels at communication, travel, information, and practical magic. AP Caps: Attack: 30, Defense: 90, Movement: 90, Adjustment: 120, Mental: 90, Special: 60; Exemption: No AP restrictions on Teleport, Clairsentience, Transform; Exclusion: May not apply Advantages to Attack Spells; Restrictions: Must take 1/2 DCV Concentration on all Spells

 

Lakandan Magic: Developed by a culture that worshiped natural forces, this type of magic is founded on elemental energies. AP Caps: Attack: 90, Defense: 90, Movement: 90, Adjustment: 30, Mental: 0, Special: 30; Exemption: Non-Mental Clairsentience has an AP Cap of 90; Exclusion: None; Restriction: All spells must involve Earth, Air, Fire, and/or Water in their SFX.

 

Thanks KS,

 

I think I just found out how to do my own system while allowing players some design freedom.

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by Muldegian

Thanks KS,

 

I think I just found out how to do my own system while allowing players some design freedom.

No problem; glad to help!