1d6x2 attack

[Chris Goodwin]

I'm trying to figure out how to build an attack (doesn't matter the type, but let's go with RKA for ease of discussion) in which you'd roll, say, 1d6 and double the result. The two ideas I've got so far are 1d6 plus 1d6 (roll equals first die roll; -0) or 1d6 plus 2d6, Standard Effect (limited to amount rolled on first d6; -1).

 

Does anyone else have suggestions?

[Susano]

Re: 1d6x2 attack

 

After thinking it over... I'd say go with 1d6 + 1d6 Standard Effect (limited to amount rolled on first d6; -0)

[Naanomi]

Re: 1d6x2 attack

 

that is inspiring to me somehow... I have a character with a huge hard to aim attack that cuts through armor, and have it written up as a NND (dodge defenses) only attack...

 

But a 5d6 RKA built on this model, with a low roll being a 'glancing blow' and a high roll being a devastating direct hit... 30 Body BAM! Seems like an interesting model.

[Sean Waters]

Re: 1d6x2 attack

 

I'm trying to figure out how to build an attack (doesn't matter the type, but let's go with RKA for ease of discussion) in which you'd roll, say, 1d6 and double the result. The two ideas I've got so far are 1d6 plus 1d6 (roll equals first die roll; -0) or 1d6 plus 2d6, Standard Effect (limited to amount rolled on first d6; -1).

 

Does anyone else have suggestions?

 

Can I ask why? Is it some sort of 'critical hit' power? I'm just thinking that something int eh power description rather than the naked mechanics might trigger a thought.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: 1d6x2 attack

 

Can I ask why? Is it some sort of 'critical hit' power? I'm just thinking that something int eh power description rather than the naked mechanics might trigger a thought.

 

Well, it's intended more for general purposes than a specific build, but the particular circumstance I'm looking at is being able to Drain 1d6 BODY rather than 2d6 Active Points worth of BODY.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: 1d6x2 attack

 

Extra volatility makes extremes more likely (high or low end). If you consider that valuable, this should cost more than 2d6 of the same attack (so your 1d6 + 2d6 SE limited to 1st roll would seem reasonable). If not, I'd price it as 2d6 rolled as 1d6. In the case you note, it seems like a simplifier only, to drain BOD rather than CP, so I'd likely price it equal to 2d6 Drain.

[Fireg0lem]

Re: 1d6x2 attack

 

I actually think it should be this (volatility makes it better - 1d6x2 is more effective on average than 2d6):

 

1d6 (power) plus +2d6 (power), Standard Effect Rule (-0), Only Applies Up To Roll On First 1d6 (-3/4)

 

The reasoning for that being -1/2 is that you get 3.5/6 on average, so you're losing more than 1/3 but less than 1/2 of the effect. This costs a little bit more than 2d6, and it is a little bit better.

[Sean Waters]

Re: 1d6x2 attack

 

Given that we round in our favour, rolling 2d6/2 will yield slightly better results on average than 1d6: you only get a result of '1' when you roll two ones, whereas you get a '6' when you roll two sixes or a 5 and a 6. The difference is minimal, but I don't see that you need any complications: I'm with Hugh - make it an advantge or more complex build if you feel the need, but that is not a need I'd feel. Simpler to make it 1d6 not halved: you are already at a small disadvantage

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: 1d6x2 attack

 

Good point on the rounding, Sean. 2d6/2, rounded, will average 3.75 instead of 3.5, an increase of over 7% (not huge, but an offset to the increased volatility of rolling 1d6 instead).

[Killer Shrike]

Re: 1d6x2 attack

 

For Normal damage:

 

1d6; Double Effect (Multiply by 2; +1 1/4); Active Points: 11.25; Real Cost: 11.25

 

Extrapolate from there...

[Fearghus]

Re: 1d6x2 attack

 

For the life of me I can not figure out why you would need this mechanic, but I would personally just hand wave it...

 

Spend your points on 2d6 RKA and just roll one die and multiply it. I can see an argument for making it either an advantage or limitation... after all you have a greater probability of rolling max damage rolling fewer dice, but you have a greater probably of rolling minimum damage as well, so I think it washes.

[Naanomi]

Re: 1d6x2 attack

 

I could see it as slightly advantageous in the long run... the statistical averages balance out, but against heavily defended targets the burst has value.

 

Example: 5d6 RKA against a bricky target with 25 rDEF... the base 5d6 has a what... .7% of doing any damage at all? Whereas the 1d6X5 has a 19%ish chance of doing 5 damage. The stun, of course, would make all the difference...

 

but what about against Automatons or objects that have no stun? Then the 1d6X5 is a real killer! I know which one I'd rather have when trying to shoot out an Unobtainum lock in a timely manner.

 

Still... given you are really just playing with a probability curve... if it didn't get out of hand I would still call it a +0

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: 1d6x2 attack

 

For the life of me I can not figure out why you would need this mechanic' date=' but I would personally just hand wave it...[/quote']

 

I Always Hit The Head: RKA 1d6, +4 Stun Multiple, plus RKA 1d6, (rolls the same)

 

1d6 for 2x BODY and 5x STUN. Note that in this build the Stun Multiple doesn't apply to the doubled damage, as with a head hit.

[Sean Waters]

Re: 1d6x2 attack

 

Or 2d6 RKA (+4 stun multiple) with a limitation: half damage if the target does not have a head.

[MyChampionsHero]

Re: 1d6x2 attack

 

it really depends on the special effect of the power your trying to build, we all can give you suggestions for what we are understanding but there is so many special effects that our suggestions might not suit what your looking for.

some of what i am understanding is a 1D6 attacks bought with Autofire with just 2 shots, another might be a 1d6 attack with gradual effect on it, another might be to have the increasing effect as with the entangle, really depends on what your special effect is, and there is (or was) also a ability with Skill Levels that would allow your skill level to also increase the damage up to 2x the damage.

[torchwolf]

Re: 1d6x2 attack

 

Well' date=' it's intended more for general purposes than a specific build, but the particular circumstance I'm looking at is being able to Drain 1d6 BODY rather than 2d6 Active Points worth of BODY.[/quote']

Of course, if this is used for a Drain, the Recovery Rate would be the slightly awkward 2.5 pts of BODY per Recovery time increment, which might either increase or decrease the advantage of multiplying the one d6 rolled, depending on any Recovery round-off you might also want to impose.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: 1d6x2 attack

 

Of course' date=' if this is used for a Drain, the Recovery Rate would be the slightly awkward 2.5 pts of BODY per Recovery time increment, which might either increase or decrease the advantage of multiplying the one d6 rolled, depending on any Recovery round-off you might also want to impose.[/quote']

 

It doesn't necessarily have to... in fact I would probably rule that you still recover 5 Active Points worth of BODY per Turn. It's just the Draining that is denominated in BODY.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: 1d6x2 attack

 

it really depends on the special effect of the power your trying to build' date=' we all can give you suggestions for what we are understanding but there is so many special effects that our suggestions might not suit what your looking for. [/quote']

 

If it were a matter of, what mechanic do I use to achieve a particular Special Effect X, I wouldn't have bothered asking. I'm looking more for, how do I achieve a particular mechanical effect within the rules? I might very well come up with ten or a hundred ways from a special effects standpoint to use the mechanical effect.

[prestidigitator]

Re: 1d6x2 attack

 

Hmm. How do I build a power for which I roll 1d10 for damage? To me it's not really a desirable or reasonable thing to do with the system; it's meta-gaming rather than using the system to build the in-game effect that you want. I'd ask the GM if he'd be okay with my rolling 1d6 and doubling it for a 2d6 attack, then I'd simply go with the answer (either roll 1d6 and double it or roll the usual 2d6).

[Sean Waters]

Re: 1d6x2 attack

 

I could see it as slightly advantageous in the long run... the statistical averages balance out, but against heavily defended targets the burst has value.

 

Example: 5d6 RKA against a bricky target with 25 rDEF... the base 5d6 has a what... .7% of doing any damage at all? Whereas the 1d6X5 has a 19%ish chance of doing 5 damage. The stun, of course, would make all the difference...

 

but what about against Automatons or objects that have no stun? Then the 1d6X5 is a real killer! I know which one I'd rather have when trying to shoot out an Unobtainum lock in a timely manner.

 

Still... given you are really just playing with a probability curve... if it didn't get out of hand I would still call it a +0

 

I think I would feel very differently about 5x1d5 than 2x1d6: the volatility of the latter is far less of a factor because the probability 'curve' is much shallower anyway. With anything over 2x, I think I'd be calling foul. As you say a result of 26 - 30 on 5d6 is unlikely - 0.7%. A result of 11 or 12 on 2d6 is a 1 in 12.

[Sean Waters]

Re: 1d6x2 attack

 

I can see Chris' point of view - if there is a mechanical system you might want a power that works in a similar way - for example, you might want a power that causes bleeding as the bleeding rules, and that can be difficult to model sometimes. Remember the fun we had trying to model 'suffocation' as a power and make it work the same way as the rules?

 

In a game using hit locations, the answer is +8 levels (only v hit locations: I always hit the head). In a game without hit locations you could argue that you need a construct like this or that you shouldn't be introducing it - but I can see how mechanical emulation is a bonus.

 

Personally I'd like to see all the mechanical rules written in Hero System.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: 1d6x2 attack

 

Hmm. How do I build a power for which I roll 1d10 for damage? To me it's not really a desirable or reasonable thing to do with the system; it's meta-gaming rather than using the system to build the in-game effect that you want. I'd ask the GM if he'd be okay with my rolling 1d6 and doubling it for a 2d6 attack' date=' then I'd simply go with the answer (either roll 1d6 and double it or roll the usual 2d6).[/quote']

 

Would you let me do that with say....Aid? Like, say, 10d6 Aid to Speed (Roll 1d6 and Multiply by 10)?*

 

It may seem like it's all the same and it washes out. It may not have much effect when you are talking about 2d6.

 

But what it is really doing is removing the Bell Curve from the equation, turning it into a linear progression. The extremes are as common as the middle.

 

This is a subtle distinction, but an important one. Multiples are better than straight dice overall. It's why Stun Multiples and Hit Location Multiples are so significant.

 

1d6 x 2 vs 2d6 seems like no big deal, and in truth it isn't; the statistical variance is small. 10d6 vs 5d6 x 2 vs 2d6 x 5 on the other hand...

 

Or in other words, if you look at the problem in the micro case or only consider averages you don't see the ramifications and you might allow the ability thinking its a wash. This sets a precedence, and unfortunately the effect does not scale upwards consistently with more dice in a system build primarily around the bell curve and creates a game balance issue.

 

The secret is not in the AVERAGE, the secret is in the probability of rolling a max effect. Rolling 10 6's on 10d6 is statistically improbable, but rolling 2 6's on 2d6 is pretty common thus 10d6 vs 2d6 x5 is not equivalent in terms of threat. The 2d6 x5 roller is going to hit above average and particularly max damage more often than the 10d6 roller. The 2d6 x5 roller will also hit below average and particularly min damage more often, but the game is not balanced around sub par damage, its balanced around exceeding resistance thresholds.

 

.

 

 

*I once convinced a GM to allow it for a "Haste" type spell...made the math so easy and so forth...but boy did he regret that one

[prestidigitator]

Re: 1d6x2 attack

 

Would you let me do that with say....Aid? Like' date=' say, 10d6 Aid to Speed (Roll 1d6 and Multiply by 10)?*[/quote']

Probably not. I never said there was no difference. I said I'd let the GM make the call, and be okay with rolling in the usual way if the answer were, "No," (rather than trying to build it anyway). 1d6x2 might be reasonable and 1d6x5 probably is not, but it might also depend on the context; it's going to matter less for a NND attack than for a normal attack where defenses apply. If you really, really wanted to roll 1d6 instead of Nd6, I'd probably require +2(N-1) dice of Standard Effect and give it a small limitation (maybe -1/2) because it's not always going to have full effect. Maybe I'd even allow the full -1 limitation that reflects closely the average it's going to give, since the Active Points are going to pile up quickly enough to be a deterrent, but I'd have to think some more about it before making that call.

 

The main point was that trying to control what dice we roll for a given power level is very much a meta-gaming consideration, and isn't the best way to use the system as it was designed.

[Ice9]

Re: 1d6x2 attack

 

Would you let me do that with say....Aid? Like, say, 10d6 Aid to Speed (Roll 1d6 and Multiply by 10)?*

Actually - why not? Aid can already be stacked (up to the maximum value), so the only benefit you get is that you might roll a 5 or 6 to start with, and not have to use it a second time. But on the other hand, you could roll 1 ... 1 ... 2 and still have it below full power, whereas someone rolling 10d6 would be virtually guaranteed to be at 50+ after a couple rolls.

 

If it was Speed Drain instead ... same thing. Randomness favors the enemies more than the PCs, in general. You're just as likely to roll massive overkill on a random mook and barely scratch the BBEG as you are to do the reverse.

 

The only case where multiplying like this would be a significant advantage is powers where the average roll has relatively poor effect, and a high roll could have a much better effect. For instance, Blast 10d6 vs 25 ED. In cases like that, I would call this an advantage. Otherwise, +0.

[Sean Waters]

Re: 1d6x2 attack

 

That analysis works fine if the target has no defences. Let us look at a 6d6 Drain (averages 21) against an opponent with 20 Power Defence. You are going to be doing 1 point through defences on average, maybe none, maybe 2 or 3 - probably not much more. Over six hits you can expect about 6 points of effect.

 

If you do 1d6x6 then you still average 21 but half the hits do nothing, the other half do 4, 10 and 16 through defences: over six hits you can expect 30 points of effect. Volatility makes a massive difference where there are defences in play.