Presti's Homogeneous Damage and Str Min Rules

[prestidigitator]

I'm considering using this rules variation for an upcoming game. I'm going to state right up front that I am not interested in hearing why you would not use this yourself. The purpose of creating this thread is for constructive brainstorming: what other changes would you apply to complement these changes? how would you build or rebuild (standard or other) weapons to make use of them? how would you build characters differently based on the changes? what similar modifications do you use, or have you considered using, and why?

 

So, here it is:

 

Strength: Does no damage on its own, but is used for contested rolls such as resolving Grabs (who has control and can apply a dependent maneuver to do damage, not the damage itself), Shoves, Disarms, etc. It is also not used for breaking out of Entangles, since that requires doing damage. (If you cannot seem to justify the SFX of this, place some kind of constraint on the relationship between Str and HA, a la, "Figured Characteristics.")

 

Hand Attack: This is not a variation on Strength, but is a separate Attack Power, costing 5 Base Points per d6N (or partial 3 points per d3N), with no mandatory Limitation applied. You may add up to one DC to the attack per 5 points of Strength, but these DCs cannot exceed the DCs in the HA (this is an absolute hard cap on Strength alone, and is independent of whatever other damage maximums--such as "doubling of Base DCs"--a GM may impose). Every character gets 1d6 HA as an Everyman Ability, which they may buy up (to represent "natural strength/power/fighting ability" or similar SFX, rather than buying a separate HA power distinct from their natural one) or sell back to 1d3 or 0 if they really want to. A character's Everyman HA normally serves as the basis for Martial Arts damage as well. In games with Normal Characteristic Maxima, the standard maximum for HA should be 2d6.

 

Hand Killing Attack: As standard, costs 15 points per d6K (or partial 5 points per +1K; 10 points per +d3K). You may add up to one DC to the attack per 5 points of Strength, but these DCs cannot exceed the DCs in the HKA.

 

Strength Adds (+1/2): May be applied to attacks which do not normally allow Stength to be added to damage. You may add up to one DC to the attack per 5 points of Strength, but these DCs cannot exceed the DCs in the attack.

 

Strength Minimum (additional -0 to -1/4 on Focus Limitation): This is no longer a Limitation. Instead, it is an option for powers in a Universal Focus, normally worth an additional -1/4 in Limitation value. The system effect of a Strength Minimum is that each power in the Focus to which the Strength Minimum applies cannot be used unless the character using the Focus uses at least half as many points of Strength as the Active Points in the power (a greater value of Strength may be chosen when the power is built, but does not increase the value of the Limitation; a smaller value of Strength may be chosen, but drops this option to adding 0 to the Focus Limitation). If appropriate for the campaign, the GM may change the multiplier to something other than 1/2 (e.g. 1/4 or 3/4), but this should not normally change the value added to the Focus Limitation. Note that the character who "owns" the Focus may be limited by the Strength Minimum in rare circumstances, such as when low on End or when affected by a Drain. (Note that Strength Minimum no longer reduces the amount of damage applying your Strength to a weapon adds; it is simply a minimum you need to use the weapon.)

 

Dexterity Minimum, Intelligence Minimum, Ego Minimum, etc. (-0): Each equivalent to Strength Minimum, but use the given Characteristic instead. Note that the amount of the Characteristic needed is based on its value, not its point cost (so a 40 Active Point power would require a 20 Dexterity for the default 1/2 AP requirement, not 10). These aren't normally as limiting as Strength Minimum because use of the given Characteristics costs no End. However, if Costs Endurance has been applied to the owning character's applicable Characteristic, or the GM thinks it is appropriate for some other reason, he may still allow an additional -1/4 on the Focus Limitation for these options. This can normally only be applied to the usual 10-based Characteristics; if applied to unusual Characteristics or abilities (e.g. Speed), the GM must decide how it applies.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Presti's Homogeneous Damage and Str Min Rules

 

Oh, and:

 

Thrown Objects: The thrown object simply becomes a Ranged HA with a number of d6s of normal damage equal to half its Body+PD. Rules for lifting and distance are standard, using the character's Strength.

[Ternaugh]

Re: Presti's Homogeneous Damage and Str Min Rules

 

So, if I understand correctly, STR Min is the minimum STR needed to use an ability in a focus. Using a greatsword (2d6 K) as an example, if the sword requires a STR Min of 15 (30 Active/2), but the character only has a STR 10, then the attack doesn't work (the sword's so heavy or awkward, he can't effectively swing it). Likewise, exceeding the STR Min doesn't directly add damage. That would be covered per the Hand Killing Attack rule above, and would allow a STR 15 character to add 3 DCs to the attack with this greatsword, bringing damage to 3d6K.

 

If it were a dagger (1d6-1), then the STR Min would be 5 to wield, and the STR 15 fighter could only add 10 STR (2 DC) to the damage, giving 1d6 +1 maximum. A STR 5 character would be able to add 5 STR, giving 1d6K for the dagger.

 

Is this right?

 

JoeG

[prestidigitator]

Re: Presti's Homogeneous Damage and Str Min Rules

 

Yep. Exactly. Of course, this change to the rules might well mean using different stats for weapons than are given in the standard weapons table (I'm planning on visiting the table in some detail myself to consider changes), so I'm not endorsing those as the actual values to use for those weapons.

[Ternaugh]

Re: Presti's Homogeneous Damage and Str Min Rules

 

It might take a little tinkering with the weapon stats, but I think that this generally would be a clearer way of handling weapons. How would you see your rules suggestions interacting with martial arts or skill levels for damage?

 

Let's take the example of a swashbuckling fencer. We'll assume a rapier (1d6K) for this example. STR Min would now be 7, and our fencer decides to leave his STR at the base of 10. He'd add 2 DC to the basic weapon damage. Would a Lunge add its full 2 DC (4 DC/2 for weapon use) for a total of 7 DC, or would it only be usable to double the base damage and add 1 DC for a total of 6 DC?

 

JoeG

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Presti's Homogeneous Damage and Str Min Rules

 

Strength: Does no damage on its own' date=' but [i']is[/i] used for contested rolls such as resolving Grabs (who has control and can apply a dependent maneuver to do damage, not the damage itself), Shoves, Disarms, etc. It is also not used for breaking out of Entangles, since that requires doing damage. (If you cannot seem to justify the SFX of this, place some kind of constraint on the relationship between Str and HA, a la, "Figured Characteristics.")

 

Hand Attack: This is not a variation on Strength, but is a separate Attack Power, costing 5 Base Points per d6N (or partial 3 points per d3N), with no mandatory Limitation applied. You may add up to one DC to the attack per 5 points of Strength, but these DCs cannot exceed the DCs in the HA (this is an absolute hard cap on Strength alone, and is independent of whatever other damage maximums--such as "doubling of Base DCs"--a GM may impose). Every character gets 1d6 HA as an Everyman Ability, which they may buy up (to represent "natural strength/power/fighting ability" or similar SFX, rather than buying a separate HA power distinct from their natural one) or sell back to 1d3 or 0 if they really want to. A character's Everyman HA normally serves as the basis for Martial Arts damage as well. In games with Normal Characteristic Maxima, the standard maximum for HA should be 2d6.

 

With a 2d6 maximum to KA in a NCM game, we get the same 4d6 max STR damage at the NCM level, but any character whose STR is not substandard gets that 4d6 damage. A 20 STR has no damage benefits at all if the character intends to stick to the NCM levels. I don't see much in the way of options here. If the NCM limit on HA is increased, we get "normals" doing as much as 8d6 damage (plus martial arts adders, so a Boxing Cross hits the 12d6 level).

 

Much like the killing attack, any character whose STR and HA are not set equal is wasting points. Again, I don't see a fix - this is inherent to the mechanics of the chosen system.

 

Hand Killing Attack: As standard, costs 15 points per d6K (or partial 5 points per +1K; 10 points per +d3K). You may add up to one DC to the attack per 5 points of Strength, but these DCs cannot exceed the DCs in the HKA.

 

Strength Adds (+1/2): May be applied to attacks which do not normally allow Stength to be added to damage. You may add up to one DC to the attack per 5 points of Strength, but these DCs cannot exceed the DCs in the attack.

 

OK, so I buy a 20 STR (10 points) and a 4d6 Blast, STR Adds (30 points) to get an 8d6 Blast. Or I spend 40 points and get an 8d6 Blast.

 

Or I buy a 30 STR (20 points) and a 6d6 Blast (30 points) and get a 12d6 Blast for 50 instead of 60 (but it did really cost 60 since I didn't sell back the first 10 STR).

 

Maybe I buy a 40 STR (30) and an 8d6 Blast (60 points) to get 16d6 for 90 points.

 

How does this interact with Hand Attack advantages? Would I get the exact same effect by making my HA Ranged for +1/2? IOW, do I only buy an advantage on the Hand Attack, and the STR still adds 1d6 per 5 points? Do I pro rate the STR adds for advantages on the HA? Do I pro rate only for advantages that impact the DC's (ie pro rate for Armor Piercing, but not for Range)? How does buying an Advantaged HA, let's say Penetrating at +1/2, compare to buying a No Range Penetrating Blast?

 

Thrown Objects: The thrown object simply becomes a Ranged HA with a number of d6s of normal damage equal to half its Body+PD. Rules for lifting and distance are standard' date=' using the character's Strength.[/quote']

 

So if I make my HA a Focus, I get range for free, albeit Range based on STR, instead of going the Blast or HA w/ Range route?

 

Strength Minimum (additional -0 to -1/4 on Focus Limitation): This is no longer a Limitation. Instead' date=' it is an option for powers in a Universal Focus, normally worth an additional -1/4 in Limitation value. The system effect of a Strength Minimum is that each power in the Focus to which the Strength Minimum applies cannot be used unless the character using the Focus uses at least half as many points of Strength as the Active Points in the power (a greater value of Strength may be chosen when the power is built, but does not increase the value of the Limitation; a smaller value of Strength may be chosen, but drops this option to adding 0 to the Focus Limitation). If appropriate for the campaign, the GM may change the multiplier to something other than 1/2 (e.g. 1/4 or 3/4), but this should not normally change the value added to the Focus Limitation. Note that the character who "owns" the Focus may be limited by the Strength Minimum in rare circumstances, such as when low on End or when affected by a Drain. (Note that Strength Minimum no longer reduces the amount of damage applying your Strength to a weapon adds; it is simply a minimum you need to use the weapon.)[/quote']

 

Why would I do this? If I have a 30 STR and a 6d6 HA, I do 12d6. If I put STR Min on my HA, I save 6 points (less, actually, since it already has a Focus), and lose 3d6. If I want my 3d6 back, I need to bump STR to 45 since the first 15 does nothing, so I'm down 9 points.

 

By the way, can I limit my STR "only to enhance damage" so it only adds to HA's and HKAs? Can I limit it to only enhance one of the two? Can I limit it to not enhance one of the two? Can I limit it to enhance neither? What limitation values apply to these choices? If I can't get my head around STR limited in this manner, getting my head around STR that does no damage on its own seems equally unlikely.

 

Dexterity Minimum' date=' Intelligence Minimum, Ego Minimum, etc. (-0):[/b'] Each equivalent to Strength Minimum, but use the given Characteristic instead. Note that the amount of the Characteristic needed is based on its value, not its point cost (so a 40 Active Point power would require a 20 Dexterity for the default 1/2 AP requirement, not 10). These aren't normally as limiting as Strength Minimum because use of the given Characteristics costs no End. However, if Costs Endurance has been applied to the owning character's applicable Characteristic, or the GM thinks it is appropriate for some other reason, he may still allow an additional -1/4 on the Focus Limitation for these options. This can normally only be applied to the usual 10-based Characteristics; if applied to unusual Characteristics or abilities (e.g. Speed), the GM must decide how it applies.

 

So, for no point savings whatsoever, I can risk losing access to a power if a characteristic gets drained. Somehow, I'm not seeing the equity.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Presti's Homogeneous Damage and Str Min Rules

 

It might take a little tinkering with the weapon stats, but I think that this generally would be a clearer way of handling weapons. How would you see your rules suggestions interacting with martial arts or skill levels for damage?

 

Let's take the example of a swashbuckling fencer. We'll assume a rapier (1d6K) for this example. STR Min would now be 7, and our fencer decides to leave his STR at the base of 10. He'd add 2 DC to the basic weapon damage. Would a Lunge add its full 2 DC (4 DC/2 for weapon use) for a total of 7 DC, or would it only be usable to double the base damage and add 1 DC for a total of 6 DC?

My viewpoint is that the restriction on how many DCs can be added by Strength is independent of what restrictions the GM wants to place on adding damage in general. So if the GM wants to limit an attack or weapon's damage to, "double the attack's base DCs", then he'll want to define what contributes to, "base DCs." If, for example, Extra Martial Arts DCs add to, "base damage," then the MA maneuver might be able to do more than 6 DCs if the character goes that way. If the GM wants to apply exceptions that can bypass the normal doubling rule he uses (e.g. CSLs can push it so much over the double cap) then that's fine too, but it shouldn't apply to the amount of Strength that can be added. Strength is restricted to the number of DCs in the actual HA/HKA, period. Everything else is a campaign guideline.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Presti's Homogeneous Damage and Str Min Rules

 

Much like the killing attack' date=' any character whose STR and HA are not set equal is wasting points. Again, I don't see a fix - this is inherent to the mechanics of the chosen system.[/quote']

Perhaps. Spending extra on HA always gives you the extra damage. Spending points on the Strength may not, but you do get other benefits (lifting capacity; better limits for encumbrance in suitable games; more effective Grabs, Disarms, etc.). Also, there may be game-time opportunities to use that Strength for damage that normally wouldn't be possible without going back and spending more points. For example, when a character picks up a new weapon or the occasional big object to swing/throw.

 

How does this interact with Hand Attack advantages? Would I get the exact same effect by making my HA Ranged for +1/2? IOW' date=' do I only buy an advantage on the Hand Attack, and the STR still adds 1d6 per 5 points? Do I pro rate the STR adds for advantages on the HA? Do I pro rate only for advantages that impact the DC's (ie pro rate for Armor Piercing, but not for Range)? How does buying an Advantaged HA, let's say Penetrating at +1/2, compare to buying a No Range Penetrating Blast?[/quote']

The Strength Adds Advantage was mostly for consistency. Now HA and Blast are a little more homogeneous, just like HKA/RKA are; there's little reason to say, "You CAN'T put this Advantage on..." anymore.

 

As for whether things are, "pro-rated," that's going to depend on what Advantages the GM believes contribute to the damage/effectiveness of the attack. Generally it's all going to be "pro-rated" since a DC is pretty closely defined as 5 Active Points in 6E (with the exception of Advantages that aren't considered to affect damage and such). Whatever the case, calculate the total number of DCs in the Attack Power, and that's the maximum number of DCs Strength can add on, at a rate of 1 DC per 5 Strength. Pretty much the way it works already, but with a hard limit on the amount.

 

So if I make my HA a Focus' date=' I get range for free, albeit Range based on STR, instead of going the Blast or HA w/ Range route?[/quote']

Not normally, no. Rules for throwing objects are for throwing objects. Whether that applies to any Focus or not is going to be up to the GM, right? But generally I'd watch carefully a character who did that often, and require them to put Ranged on the Focus' powers or buy using different Powers if that's the way it's going to be used.

 

Why would I do this? If I have a 30 STR and a 6d6 HA' date=' I do 12d6. If I put STR Min on my HA, I save 6 points (less, actually, since it already has a Focus), and lose 3d6. If I want my 3d6 back, I need to bump STR to 45 since the first 15 does nothing, so I'm down 9 points.[/quote']

Why would you normally put a Strength Minimum on an attack? Usually to build heroic weapons, though there's no defined limitation for using them only for that. The right tool in the right circumstance. To me it's about being able to build what you want in a way that makes sense, rather than always being 100% point efficient.

 

By the way' date=' can I limit my STR "only to enhance damage" so it only adds to HA's and HKAs? Can I limit it to only enhance one of the two? Can I limit it to not enhance one of the two? Can I limit it to enhance neither? What limitation values apply to these choices? If I can't get my head around STR limited in this manner, getting my head around STR that does no damage on its own seems equally unlikely.[/quote']

You could limit to neither, certainly. The value of the Limitation would be up to the GM based on the type of game, but I'd probably put it somewhere between -1/2 and -1. The others seem to run afoul of meta-rules IMO. If you want more damage alone, buy a bigger attack power. Just like if you want a better Acrobatics roll, you should be putting points into the Acrobatics skill or some Skill Levels, not buying Dexterity limited as "Only for Acrobatics."

 

So' date=' for no point savings whatsoever, I can risk losing access to a power if a characteristic gets drained. Somehow, I'm not seeing the equity.[/quote']

Yep. It's not always about the points, but about building the game elements that fit the concept. If the circumstances under which you lose your power are rare enough, -0 seems appropriate to me. And since you are generally going to build your character so that they have enough Strength to use the power, the circumstances under which Strength Minimum (or the others) are going to apply seem like they are going to be pretty rare and not very limiting. If you see it differently, by all means increase the value of the Limitation.

 

As for continued justification of whether this change is "worth it" or not, again I'm not going to continue to argue. If you've got constructive criticism for making it work well in a game, I'd love to hear it.

[Ternaugh]

Re: Presti's Homogeneous Damage and Str Min Rules

 

My viewpoint is that the restriction on how many DCs can be added by Strength is independent of what restrictions the GM wants to place on adding damage in general. So if the GM wants to limit an attack or weapon's damage to' date=' "double the attack's base DCs", then he'll want to define what contributes to, "base DCs." If, for example, Extra Martial Arts DCs add to, "base damage," then the MA maneuver might be able to do more than 6 DCs if the character goes that way. If the GM wants to apply exceptions that can bypass the normal doubling rule he uses (e.g. CSLs can push it so much over the double cap) then that's fine too, but it shouldn't apply to the amount of Strength that can be added. Strength is restricted to the number of DCs in the actual HA/HKA, period. Everything else is a campaign guideline.[/quote']

 

I'll have to think about the different options. I'm thinking about allowing skills/martial arts to add up to the weapon's base DC, though that could make combat quite deadly. My previous example of the STR 10 fencer with a rapier could do 8 DC with the right combination of skills/maneuvers. It could make for a more dangerous combat, but it would probably work fine for my group. I tend to have storytellers for players, who aren't really into min/maxing, and would try to be a bit more strategic in their fights.

 

JoeG

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Presti's Homogeneous Damage and Str Min Rules

 

Perhaps. Spending extra on HA always gives you the extra damage. Spending points on the Strength may not' date=' but you do get other benefits (lifting capacity; better limits for encumbrance in suitable games; more effective Grabs, Disarms, etc.). Also, there may be game-time opportunities to use that Strength for damage that normally wouldn't be possible without going back and spending more points. For example, when a character picks up a new weapon or the occasional big object to swing/throw.[/quote']

 

Why would I buy 10 STR and 4d6 HA rather than 15 STR and 3d6 HA? The second approach provides the same 6d6 damage, plus all the other benefits of another 5 STR.

 

It's great to say "build to concept, not to points". However, the points should reflect effectiveness rather than reward some concepts with point efficiency and penalize others with inefficiency.

 

The Strength Adds Advantage was mostly for consistency. Now HA and Blast are a little more homogeneous' date=' just like HKA/RKA are; there's little reason to say, "You CAN'T put this Advantage on..." anymore.[/quote']

 

I concur. Now I'm trying to get to how it works in play. If I have a 20 STR, and I buy a 4d6 Blast, STR Adds for 30, I get an 8d6 Blast. Or I buy a 20 STR and 4d6 HA, Ranged for 30. Do I still get 8d6 at range? If so, good - same cost and same effect.

 

I don't like "STR Adds" as there is no point buying an 8d6 Blast for a 10 STR character when I can buy the same blast damage for the same cost and get all the other benefits of +10 STR. But motivating high STR heroes may be a feature, rather than a flaw, depending on the kind of game you want to build.

 

As for whether things are' date=' "pro-rated," that's going to depend on what Advantages the GM believes contribute to the damage/effectiveness of the attack. Generally it's all going to be "pro-rated" since a DC is pretty closely defined as 5 Active Points in 6E (with the exception of Advantages that [i']aren't[/i] considered to affect damage and such). Whatever the case, calculate the total number of DCs in the Attack Power, and that's the maximum number of DCs Strength can add on, at a rate of 1 DC per 5 Strength. Pretty much the way it works already, but with a hard limit on the amount.

 

OK, then, the answer is "pro rate for those advantages that impact damage", right?

 

Not normally' date=' no. Rules for throwing objects are for throwing objects. Whether that applies to any Focus or not is going to be up to the GM, right? But generally I'd watch carefully a character who did that often, and require them to put [i']Ranged[/i] on the Focus' powers or buy using different Powers if that's the way it's going to be used.

 

If I have a 20 STR and a 4d6 HA, OAF Indestructible Mallet, it does 8d6 HTH. What damage does it do when thrown? I see three possibilities. It does 8d6 because the HA can be thrown and STR adds. It could do 4d6 because I have STR to do 4d6, but I don't get the HA because I didn't pay for it to have Range. Or it could do nothing, since I didn't pay for the HA to have range so there is nothing for my STR to add to.

 

Why would you normally put a Strength Minimum on an attack?

 

Under a model where it is entirely counterproductive, I wouldn't. They would get used only for building gear acquired with cash.

 

Usually to build heroic weapons' date=' though there's no defined limitation for using them only for that. The right tool in the right circumstance. To me it's about being able to build what you want in a way that makes sense, rather than always being 100% point efficient.[/quote']

 

Again, if the concepts are equally effective, they should have an equal cost. I should not have to have a less powerful, less effective character because I build to concept. IOW, I should not have to choose a different concept to have an equally powerful character.

 

You could limit to neither' date=' certainly. The value of the Limitation would be up to the GM based on the type of game, but I'd probably put it somewhere between -1/2 and -1. The others seem to run afoul of meta-rules IMO. If you want more damage alone, buy a bigger attack power. Just like if you want a better Acrobatics roll, you should be putting points into the Acrobatics skill or some Skill Levels, not buying Dexterity limited as "Only for Acrobatics."[/quote']

 

The whole HA and HKA can add 1 DC per 5 STR capped at the HA/HKA is a metagame concept.

 

 

Yep. It's not always about the points' date=' but about building the game elements that fit the concept. If the circumstances under which you lose your power are rare enough, -0 seems appropriate to me. And [b']since you are generally going to build your character so that they have enough Strength to use the power[/b], the circumstances under which Strength Minimum (or the others) are going to apply seem like they are going to be pretty rare and not very limiting. If you see it differently, by all means increase the value of the Limitation.

 

The minimum seems very limiting when it reduces damage the attack would otherwise do by more than the cost of buying that damage back. "Requires a 20 DEX" seems a prerequisite. If my concept demands the DEX based limitation and yours does not, then our characters are exactly eqaul, until we encounter someone with a DEX drain/transfer/suppress. Your point rules disadvantage my concept.

 

As for continued justification of whether this change is "worth it" or not, again I'm not going to continue to argue. If you've got constructive criticism for making it work well in a game, I'd love to hear it.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Presti's Homogeneous Damage and Str Min Rules

 

One observation and a one question for you. As described, your average joe has a 2d6 normal HTH attack, 1d6 from the everyman HTH which is doubled by STR. By spending 5 points to get 2d6 HTH, you double your attack to 4d6 with your 10 STR, which is almost like a free 1d6 since you only spent 5 points on it. I don't see this being abusive since you can't get more than 1d6 this way, but it would certainly encourage players to buy some kind of martial arts or brawling ability to take advantage of it. It will also give a slight edge to normal HTH attacks as opposed to KA or NND strikes because of the free die.

 

The question is weapons limited by other characteristics - like what? I could see a whip or kusari requiring a certain level of DEX to wield properly, and maybe a INT basis for a complicated firearm, but EGO? I am just curious as to what weapons you had in mind when creating this limitation.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Presti's Homogeneous Damage and Str Min Rules

 

Why, psychic weapons of course.

 

True on the "free" die of damage. I wanted to keep the starting baseline the same. Do you see any simple method of fixing that? I'm on the fence about trying to muck with it vs. just saying it's a single d6 and just about everyone is going to have more than that if they spend a few points anyway. Hmm....

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Presti's Homogeneous Damage and Str Min Rules

 

I see the 10 STR/1d6 HA from two viewpoints.

 

On the one hand, there's very little granularity, especially as you are capping the NCM for hand attack at 2d6. And you need to, or the NCM hand to hand attack goes up, so I don't see a higher NCM limit as much of a solution.

 

On the other hand, how many characters reliant on HTH damage were not going to have that 4d6 anyway, whether by purchasing a 20 STR or a 10 STR and a 4d6 HA.

 

Where I see the issue is that many characters with normal human STR will do 4d6 damage, and unusually strong, but still NCM, humans will also do 4d6 damage, so there is no differentiation between low and high strength normals. In a Supers game, probably no big deal as anyone seriously relying on HTH damage isn't going to do 4d6 or 6d6 damage anyway. In an NCM game? Substantial loss of granularity, and some loss of verisimilitude, when virtually every character probably shells out the 5 points to get 4d6 HTH damage, so everyone from 10 STR to 20 STR has an equal punch.

 

I'm not sure the issue can be avoided. Once you make HTH damage a separate power, rather than a function of STR that can be augmented with HTH attacks that don't also enhance STR, I think the issue is going to be there.

 

As a player, I've got to consider that 5 points for +5 STR includes paying for that extra HTH damage, so if I don't buy up my hand attack to match, I'm paying for an ability I won't use. May as well buy up my mOCV to 8 just in case I find a psychic weapon too.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Presti's Homogeneous Damage and Str Min Rules

 

Why, psychic weapons of course.

 

True on the "free" die of damage. I wanted to keep the starting baseline the same. Do you see any simple method of fixing that? I'm on the fence about trying to muck with it vs. just saying it's a single d6 and just about everyone is going to have more than that if they spend a few points anyway. Hmm....

 

If only I were psychic I would have been able to see that for myself!

 

When you say you want to keep the baseline the same, do you mean you don't want to give an advantage to normal HTH attacks over KA and NNDs? In 5e I often found this a problem for martial artists with KA and NND strikes because the KA was capped at x2 DC and the NND didn't get a STR bonus at all (still don't), which made normal damage manuevers almost always more useful because they simply had more DC overall. So yes, I see that as a potential issue. That said, we are only talking 1 DC here, and it isn't as though there isn't precedent for ignoring some/all of a character's "STR" damage for those kind of manuevers, so I think I would just live with it.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Presti's Homogeneous Damage and Str Min Rules

 

Cool. Yeah, that's sort of the point of the overall change: to level the playing field between the different Attack Powers and give a more consistent mechanic for adding damage. The "baseline" I was referring to is specifically the amount of damage done by a default 0-point 10-stat character though; I think it works pretty well for "realistic/cinematic" combat between unskilled people brawling in the street; for most attacks no real damage is going to be done, but there's going to be a bit of Stun and every few shots might do a bit of Body (draw blood, break a nose, crack a rib, etc.). It's when weapons or a skilled martial artist enters the picture that things start to get messy in a hurry unless you've got some big beefy targets or some kind of protection in the scene.