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GM conundrum - CSLs


TheSouljourner

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Re: GM conundrum - CSLs

 

But the question of whether it's arbitrary is all about whether it makes sfx sense. If you're playing a game of no superhumans, a STR limit isn't arbitrary.

 

That's my point. A limit applicable to a game mechanic - "effect" - is arbitrary, but a limit to STR, skills, etc. isn't necessarily so.

 

I think you know what I meant - total OCV, from base OCV, MAs, CSLs, etc.

 

I find an OCV cap translates to "buy OCV". For example, let's say the OCV cap is 10, the DC cap is 8 DC's and the DCV cap is 12, to pick arbitrary figures.

 

My character will have a standard Martial Strike maneuver - +0 OCV, +2 DCV and +2d6 damage.

 

I can buy a 20 STR, +2 DC's with martial arts and a 10 OCV and DCV. I'm now at the caps in all three criteria.

 

I can't buy an Offensive Strike since that would breach the DC caps. I can't buy a Defensive Strike, since that would breach the OCV and DCV caps. Martial Block is out. Martial Dodge looks like it's out as well, (I assume the DCV cap is pre-Dodge, the DC cap assumes this isn't a Haymaker, etc.).

 

If I buy an offensive strike, I have to ditch my +2 DC's with martial arts. Now I can do 8d6 only if I drop my OCV and DCV below the caps, so I'm at a disadvantage to the guy with only one (offensive) maneuver. If I buy a Defensive Strike, I'll have to drop my OCV and DCV stats, so I can only do 6d6 at the campaign max OCV and DCV.

 

Skill levels are right out. If I buy 2 skill levels, I have to drop my base OCV and DCV by 2 and my base DC's by 1, so I can never hit the max in more than one area at a time.

 

Hard caps of this nature result in flexibility being penalized - you can't be better in one area by being worse in another, you can only be inferior in some way to the guy with only one maneuver.

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Re: GM conundrum - CSLs

 

Oh... One more thing .

An energy blast with 80d6 is not legal. Because you are not allowed to buy a power with 400 points !!

A part has to go to complications. An other part has to go to OCV ( except if you decide to stay with the few basic points but your 80d6 blast never will touch yours targets ! )

 

And Blast like much powers cost END.

Your player - we say it is a Grobill in french - will not have enough END to use the deadly 80d6 even one only time .

 

Description of Grobill :

 

OCV < 6

END < 25

 

Cucumber Beam : Blast 80d6 ( 400 AP )

Grobill needs 40 END per turn to try to use it. He ever fails his attack roll .

He doesn't understand why.

I say 'he' and not 'she'. Because Grobil often is a man or young boy.

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Re: GM conundrum - CSLs

 

Because of its reliance on exponents and the bell curve all hero characters need to fall in a reasonable range of ability levels appropriate to the campaign in question to remain playable and not be disruptive. If a player builds a character who breaks the curve it is not artificial - but pragmatic - to say no. The game will simply not work, or won't be fun for you or others, if you have a pro from dover who builds a character who falls out of bounds. Instead of saying no, sit down, determine what ranges various abilities should be for the campaign, and then discuss that. If he wants to max out in an area - fine.

 

However, the suggestion that you ask "why so many levels?" is also a good one. If he wants to be offsetting penalties all the time then relevant PSLs are more appropos. Also, that's the number of levels he needs to consistently go for headshots. So, you may wish to nix scads of PSLs for Hit Locations. That would lead to a very lethal campaign which raises the question: is that the style of campaign you are looking for? If not, say so and say no. Insofar as you have a cogent reason for saying no there is nothing arbitrary about it.

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Re: GM conundrum - CSLs

 

Nothing says you have to buy separate powers with base points and complication points. They aren't linked.

 

Let's make it a 60d6 Blast for 300 points, give it 16 charges (so it costs 0 END) and spend the remaining 100 points on:

 

+4 SPEED (40 points)

+10 OCV with Blast (20 points)

+As much Lightning Reflexes as you can afford with the Blast only.

 

Now, you should get the first shot with that LR, you have a decent SPD. If you need more OCV, spread some dice of your EB. 50d6 is still plenty of damage, and now you have another +10 OCV. Spread 15 more dice to spread to fill 15 hexes, and you can probably hit most/all of the opposing team with 35d6 - more than enough against a team built to compete against opponents throwing 10 - 14 DC attacks.

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Re: GM conundrum - CSLs

 

For the OP's purposes' date=' this is the relevant distinction. He was reluctant to institute something "artificial," which I took to mean "without in-game rational."[/quote']

 

Which presumes only the "in-game" aspect is a reasonable basis for character design decisions. Role playing exists on many interelated levels and, while gamers frequently disparage the sin of meta-gaming, the meta-game on the system level is equally important in terms of whether a game, or character is playable. So, with respect to the OP, I simply cannot - and will not - accept the notion that a system and campaign design level considration is less valid than an "in-game" rationale. The distinction ignores the entire interface we use to create the in-game with.

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Re: GM conundrum - CSLs

 

Oh... One more thing .

An energy blast with 80d6 is not legal. Because you are not allowed to buy a power with 400 points !!

Incorrect.

 

The rules have nothing to say about how many points you can spend.

 

Suggestions, yes. But not rules.

 

 

I think we don't read the same book. I base on BR and you ?

 

In a Super Heroic campaign' date=' characters are built on 400 Total Points ( and [b']have to[/b] select ** Points' worth of Matching Complications).

 

The rules have to say about how many points to spend in a super heroic campaign.

 

** means a number written on BR.

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Re: GM conundrum - CSLs

 

Looks like the Basic Rules do not permit the character to have less complications at the cost of having less total points. For example, my Super in a 400 point game with 75 points of complications could choose to have 375 points to spend and only 50 points of complications. The full 6e rules (the two volume set) permits this, but it seems a reasonable thing to carve out of the basic rules.

 

In any event, the rule you cite does not prevent a character spending all his points on a huge Energy Blast. He has 400 points. He can put them all in an 80d6 Energy Blast. He will target with an OCV of 3 (unless he spreads some dice to enhance OCV), move at DEX 10 and SPD 2, and the 40 END required will cost him all his END and 10d6 STUN (unless he makes it a 16 charge EB). It's poor character design, to be sure. But it's legal.

 

It would also be legal to buy a 40d6 Blast and spend 200 points on better SPD, OCV, DEX, Defenses, etc. to make a more competitive character whose attack is still vastly overpowered in the typical Champions game. The fact you can build it with the points available does not mean the GM must permit it.

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Re: GM conundrum - CSLs

 

In any event, the rule you cite does not prevent a character spending all his points on a huge Energy Blast. He has 400 points. He can put them all in an 80d6 Energy Blast. He will target with an OCV of 3 (unless he spreads some dice to enhance OCV), move at DEX 10 and SPD 2, and the 40 END required will cost him all his END and 10d6 STUN (unless he makes it a 16 charge EB). It's poor character design, to be sure. But it's legal.

Wrong.

I politely advice you to buy BR . And no to recuperate some information taken from different places of this forum to learn the HS 6th without buying 6th books.

If you already bought BR , I apologize and seriously ask you to read again it. Maybe what you are saying works with 5th , but I am sure not in 6th according to BR.

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Re: GM conundrum - CSLs

 

Wrong.

I politely advice you to buy BR . And no to recuperate some information taken from different places of this forum to learn the HS 6th without buying 6th books.

If you already bought BR , I apologize and seriously ask you to read again it. Maybe what you are saying works with 5th , but I am sure not in 6th according to BR.

 

What part of the Basic Rules do you think invalidates Hugh's example?

 

And of note, the Basic Rules are a subset of the 6th Edition Hero rules. Volume 1 (Character Creation) and Volume 2 (Combat and Adventuring) are the core rules.

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Re: GM conundrum - CSLs

 

Wow are you about to get into a discussion with the wrong people on the rules...

 

1- The rule you cited is for Character Point Total and has nothing to do with how many points you can spend on any one Power. You're the one misinterpreting the text.

 

2- Limitations can be used to reduce point costs, not especially pertinent to the discusion but worth noting.

 

3- the BR is, as Archermoo pointed out, a stripped subset of the full rules. We assume the full rules unless otherwise noted.

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Re: GM conundrum - CSLs

 

What part of the Basic Rules do you think invalidates Hugh's example?

The characteristics' part of BR. Read the twenty first pages and you'll understand.

 

2- Limitations can be used to reduce point costs, not especially pertinent to the discusion but worth noting.

Right. But limitations doesn't increase characteristics. In the 6th edition I mean.

 

 

1- The rule you cited is for Character Point Total and has nothing to do with how many points you can spend on any one Power. You're the one misinterpreting the text.

If the GM gives you 400 CP for all ( perks, skills, characteristics, talents, equipement and so on...) it is not to buy one power with limitations for 500 by discreasing the characteristics.

Yes , you are right. It is possible. In this case you will have a 80d6 blast and a blind and death and dumb and a paraplegic ( and a unlucky ) super hero who cannot use the blast.

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Re: GM conundrum - CSLs

 

Which presumes only the "in-game" aspect is a reasonable basis for character design decisions. Role playing exists on many interelated levels and' date=' while gamers frequently disparage the sin of meta-gaming, the meta-game on the system level is equally important in terms of whether a game, or character is playable. So, with respect to the OP, I simply cannot - and will not - accept the notion that a system and campaign design level considration is less valid than an "in-game" rationale. The distinction ignores the entire interface we use to create the in-game with.[/quote']

Well...I'm not sure he was equating "artificial" with "unreasonable." (He did seem reluctant to use a simple cap.)

 

I would draw a distinction between an sfx cap* and a mechanical cap; it relates to Hugh's post. First, I prefer caps that allow for some trade-off among OCV, DCs, etc. Second, I think mechanical caps should be applied with reason regardless, so that even if there's no general right to...ah..."cap and trade" or similar, the GM would make allowances for martial arts and similar.

 

An sfx cap, on the other hand, would be strictly applied - the GM says that you just can't have a 30 STR, 20 DCs in your MAs, or 15 overall levels.

 

* Probably not the best term. Offhand, the only examples that come to mind are limitations on normal humans.

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Re: GM conundrum - CSLs

 

The characteristics' part of BR. Read the twenty first pages and you'll understand.

 

 

Right. But limitations doesn't increase characteristics. In the 6th edition I mean.

 

 

 

If the GM gives you 400 CP for all ( perks, skills, characteristics, talents, equipement and so on...) it is not to buy one power with limitations for 500 by discreasing the characteristics.

Yes , you are right. It is possible. In this case you will have a 80d6 blast and a blind and death and dumb and a paraplegic ( and a unlucky ) super hero who cannot use the blast.

 

I'm not sure why Characteristics entered into this... but

1) You are not obligated to purchase them above Starting Value

2) You do not need to sell them off below Starting Value.

 

In order to purchase a 400 Point Blast Power (80D6 Normal Damage).

 

It costs 400 Points, you have a 400 Point Character. END. OF. STORY.

 

Is it smart? no. not really.

Is it legal? ABSOLUTELY YES.

 

Your character will also not be deaf/dumb/blind or paraplegic. In fact, they'll be pretty close to a Normal Person with a massive Blast Power and nothing else.

 

As for "Limitations don't increase Characteristics" - I believe you've missed the point: Limitations decrease Power Costs, leaving more Points for other things. Reduce the cost of the 80D6 Blast from 400 to 200 by using Limitations will give you 200 Points left to Spend (I recommend Endurance and Recovery as a start here).

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Re: GM conundrum - CSLs

 

The characteristics' part of BR. Read the twenty first pages and you'll understand.

 

 

Right. But limitations doesn't increase characteristics. In the 6th edition I mean.

 

 

 

If the GM gives you 400 CP for all ( perks, skills, characteristics, talents, equipement and so on...) it is not to buy one power with limitations for 500 by discreasing the characteristics.

Yes , you are right. It is possible. In this case you will have a 80d6 blast and a blind and death and dumb and a paraplegic ( and a unlucky ) super hero who cannot use the blast.

 

You seem to have some pretty significant misunderstandings about how the Hero System works. Your characteristics don't start at 0. You have to take a specific number of Complications, but that doesn't change depending on the number of points you spend on a single power.

 

Also of note, most of us trying to help you out here are actually quite familiar with not just the Hero System in general but specifically 6th edition. Several of us were on the advisory committee that Steve set up to bounce rules ideas off of. So rather than assuming that since we are disagreeing with you that we haven't read the rules and don't know what we are talking about, you might want to consider the idea that you might actually be mistaken and actually listen to what we have to say.

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Re: GM conundrum - CSLs

 

Lets back up for a second and take a breath.

 

1) The people who are responding to your question are mostly long time HERO system players. Many are playtesters and know a lot of minutia about the game. A statement to reread several pages of the book would be as insulting to them as stating to a professor in college that the text book they are preaching from is incorrect and tell them to reread the book they are using. A better approach would be to quote sections from the book and explain why you think its incorrect. Many times its just a wording misunderstanding.

 

2) What purple justice is noting, though not eloquently in English, is that if a GM sets characters at 400 points, a player could, in theory, buy down all their stats to 0 or 1 and spend close to 500 points on a single power. The 500 points could then be used to buy something like an 80d6 blast. We have several names for players who do this (power gamer, munchkin, etc.) and generally advise the GM to figuratively slap the character down. This game, because it allows you manipulate figures and stats, can be prone to abuse and requires more GM vigilance than other game systems. The game requires the GM to approve and ensure that the characters entering the game are acceptable to the campaign. I can spend 300 points and make a character that would fit in a game doing 8d6 or 20d6 and be "rules" legal. This doesn't mean I should try or the GM will let me. BTW:Hero designer comes defaulted with limits on how much you can configure for a power. This limitation on how much a power can be is not a hero rule, just a default setting in the program. Hero designer attempts to base itself off the hero rules but is not the same as the hero rules.

 

3) Points. Everything is based on points in the game. Even experience points are effectively character points. There seems to be some confusion here in the posts. In 6th edition, the "400 CP" is usually referred to as the total points of the character. Points in a power is generally referred to as points. Complications, aka Disadvantages in previous editions, do not increase the total points of the character, but having less points in complications in total than the allowed limit will decrease the 400 total points of the character.

 

Thus the 400 total points is the maximum you can spend on a character in characteristics, skills, perks, talents, powers and equipment. To achieve the 400 total points, you need to come up with 75 points in complications. If you come up with only 60 points in complications, your total points will 385.

 

Limitations reduces the cost of powers. This is not the same are getting extra points. Its like putting a power on sale because it isn't as useful as a pristine power. Similarly advantages increase the cost of powers because they make the power more useful. You wouldn't go to a used car salesman and ask for money because the car is used and discounted right?

 

4) From the original thread, CSLs can be abused like any other rule in HERO. My best advice to you is say, you have a range of CVs you expect people to have compared to speed and damage. In a HEROic level game, its quite easy to be the guy who never misses. On the other hand, the marksman/gunslinger is a pretty well defined category. I would set a CV limit and if a person wants to be the gunslinger/marksman, I would allow them to exceed that limit by 1-2 levels so long as they aren't doing another category like tank, psionic, healer.

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Re: GM conundrum - CSLs

 

1) You are not obligated to purchase them above Starting Value

Thanks, I already read BR. I know the base value of each characteristic. And some people here seem not to be in the same case.

 

2) You do not need to sell them off below Starting Value.
I know it too.

 

In order to purchase a 400 Point Blast Power (80D6 Normal Damage).

 

It costs 400 Points, you have a 400 Point Character. END. OF. STORY.

 

And where will you find the 40 END per turn to use it ?

 

Take an example to convince me it possible. Create your super character with its 80d6 Blast and I will prove you it is not possible according to 6th BR.

 

Your character will also not be deaf/dumb/blind or paraplegic. In fact' date=' they'll be pretty close to a Normal Person with a massive Blast Power and nothing else.[/quote']Read the BR before talking. Please.

Blindness offers you CP like other disabilites above. And Blindness affects your OCV. So if you buy a 80d6 Blast with this kind of CP bonuses , you'll never touch your target.

 

The maximum of your CP is 400. And a part of theses 400 have to go to complications. After if you decide to take disabilities for having 80d6 blast , that is your choice but your power is useless.

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Re: GM conundrum - CSLs

 

I have read and reread the corresponding section in HSR6e1 (I don't have the basic rules, those are a subset, as has been pointed out) and I cannot understand where anyone would get the impression that purple justice is coming up with. I'm not trying to be rude, but purple justice: you need to read it again mate. That isn't what it says, and if you think it is, you haven't understood it.

 

I could tell you how long I've been playing the Hero System and 6th edition specifically, but I'm not going to use an "Appeal To Authority" fallacy when it's not even necessary to do so - my experience with the system is not a factor in reading comprehension. The Hero System is, perhaps, not the clearest it could be for new players, so a misinterpretation is understandable, but believe me - it is a misinterpretation.

 

Note that nobody is saying you should let a dude that rocks up with an 80d6 Blast into the game. We're just saying that it is a legal character. It's not a playable one, but it's legal. You could also have any of the following examples, just to make it perfectly clear:

 

- A character with 410 Strength, and all other characteristics at their base levels with no powers or skills.

- A character with Inventor 209-, a 25 STUN, and all other characteristics at their base levels with no powers and no other skills.

- A character with a Contact 409-, all characteristics at base levels, and no skills or powers.

- You get the idea.

 

None of these are good characters either, but they are legal. A choice quote:

HSR6e1pp32: "The HERO System doesn't establish any restrictions you can spend Character Points on. If you want to spend most of them on Characteristics and just a few on Skills, you can; if you want to buy a lot of Powers for your character but leave him with more or less ordinary Characteristics, you can."

 

As far as the 40 END required to fire the 80d6 Blast, there are two answers here. Firstly, you buy the blast with 16 charges (a -0 limitation). Secondly, you could accept that it will knock you out - you'll have 20 END, so you have to power up the other 20 via STUN loss. That will inflict 10d6 STUN on you, averaging 35, so you'll knock yourself out for a while. But it's legal.

 

Note that insisting on the basic rules is like complaining to people that have read Hamlet that they haven't read the cliff notes.

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Re: GM conundrum - CSLs

 

Thanks, I already read BR. I know the base value of each characteristic. And some people here seem not to be in the same case.

 

I know it too.

 

 

 

And where will you find the 40 END per turn to use it ?

 

Take an example to convince me it possible. Create your super character with its 80d6 Blast and I will prove you it is not possible according to 6th BR.

 

Read the BR before talking. Please.

Blindness offers you CP like other disabilites above. And Blindness affects your OCV. So if you buy a 80d6 Blast with this kind of CP bonuses , you'll never touch your target.

 

The maximum of your CP is 400. And a part of theses 400 have to go to complications. After if you decide to take disabilities for having 80d6 blast , that is your choice but your power is useless.

 

Wow.

 

OK, I'll be slow.

 

I've read the BR - heck, I math checked it and put the Character Pack together for it.

 

Here are some possible Complications that don't make you blind:

Hunted (pick a villain you don't like, VIPER is a fun choice)

Pyschological Complication: Normal Guy with a Big Gun... (I'll leave alone how to interpret that)

Reputation: Glass Jaw

Social Complication: Secret Identity.

 

List goes on that doesn't include Blindness that you seem to want to weigh the conversation down with for no reason.

 

Onto the Endurance Cost... ah, 40 END is a lot. Especially since there's no points left to buy more. BUT!

 

You don't have to use the power at full capacity. Ever. You can crank that sucker right down to a 20D6 and only use 10END.

Or, you can burn Stun and use it at full power. . . .

 

We've already said buying one huge 400 point power is a bad idea. For a whole number of reasons, the Endurance Cost being the bottom of that list. You said it was illegal - you are wrong. It is not. That's all that we're discussing. Good Character Design is a whole other discussion.

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Re: GM conundrum - CSLs

 

In any event' date=' the rule you cite does not prevent a character [b']spending all his points[/b] on a huge Energy Blast. He has 400 points. He can put them all in an 80d6 Energy Blast. He will target with an OCV of 3 (unless he spreads some dice to enhance OCV), move at DEX 10 and SPD 2, and the 40 END required will cost him all his END and 10d6 STUN (unless he makes it a 16 charge EB). It's poor character design, to be sure. But it's legal.

 

If you spent all your points in a 80d6 Blast , some of the numbers - so Base Value - given in this message is/are uncorrect.

According to 6th BR.

I don't know where come from the cost of STUN for example. But mathematically, the super hero probably will be stunned before using its power.

 

If your character got over 400 CP - because of disabilities - its OCV certainly prevent him or her to reach the target.

 

I hope this message will help me to be understood inspite my uneloquent english level. :)

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Re: GM conundrum - CSLs

 

The maximum of your CP is 400. And a part of theses 400 have to go to complications. After if you decide to take disabilities for having 80d6 blast ' date=' that is your choice but your power is useless.[/quote']

 

What? Just what?

 

You need 75 points worth of complications for a 400 point character. Every 400 point character needs that many; it is highly unusual for any character built on that many points to not take the maximum number of points of complications. Are you suggesting that every 400 point superhero is blind?

 

Here's a sample list for EB Man that leaves him with surprisingly normal sensory abilities:

- DNPC (girlfriend, normal, unaware of adventuring career, frequently) 20 points

- Distinctive Features (mutant - shows up on mutant detectors, not concealable, unusual senses needed) 5 points

- Hunted by archenemy (as powerful, frequently, harsh) 15 points

- Psychological Complication (overconfidence - very common, moderate) 15 points

- Social Complication (secret id) 15 points

- Unluck 1d6 5 points

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Re: GM conundrum - CSLs

 

Nothing about the values in Hugh's post is incorrect. You start out with a DEX of 10. A Speed of 2. An OCV of 3. And an Endurance Score of 20.

 

If you use all 20 Endurance and must come up with another 20 Endurance to use the power you take 1D6 Stun Damage per 2 Endurance used (over your Current Endurance); This is, however, not a Basic Rule, but a standard Hero Rule - ergo it's not in the BR and we can assume you have no idea this was the rule.

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Re: GM conundrum - CSLs

 

If you spent all your points in a 80d6 Blast ' date=' some of the numbers - so Base Value - given in this message is/are uncorrect. According to 6th BR.[/quote']

Chapter and verse please? Which of the base numbers are incorrect? All Hugh mentioned was OCV 3 (which is correct), DEX 10 (also correct) and SPD 2 (huh, correct as well, fancy that). Which of these base values do you take issue with? I claim, with the full force of the rulebooks behind me, that a character who spends 0 points on characteristics will nonetheless have a DEX 10, OCV 3, and SPD 2. What do you claim such a character will have?

 

I don't know where come from the cost of STUN for example. But mathematically, the super hero probably will be stunned before using its power.

In a standard campaign, he'll probably be knocked out by an average 10d6 attack (he only has PD and ED of 2, and STUN of 20), and he'll go after anyone with a DEX higher than 10 even in the first phase 12 of the combat. So yes, he's not likely to be conscious long enough to use his power. Nobody said it was a good character, only a legal one.

 

If your character got over 400 CP - because of disabilities - its OCV certainly prevent him or her to reach the target.

Not over. You do understand that starting superheroes, by default, are going to be built on exactly 400 points, of which 325 will be "free" and 75 will come from complications? Or do you think, for some reason, that complications are horribly debilitating things that nobody ever takes and so most characters are built on just the 325? Because that is a very incorrect impression.

 

As far as being able to hit the target... well, he can spread his Blast if he wants to, getting up to a +79 to his OCV. But that's really neither here nor there - nobody is saying you should play this character, or even that most GMs would permit you to do so; we're just saying that by the book it is a legal character.

 

It is, if you like, an extreme case. By arguing specifically against this you miss the point. Hugh gave an excellent example earlier of someone with "only" a 60d6 Blast, and enough OCV and Lightning Reflexes to make effective use of it. That character doesn't have the "can't hit" or "too much END" problems you seem to be obsessed with, and it cleverly doesn't even have the "won't get to use it before getting knocked out" issue you've just noticed.

 

The point is not that one specific character (with an 80d6 Blast) is abusive, and coming up with incorrect statements about its legality or dubious evaluations of its playability is to miss this; the point is that the points alone are not enough to create balanced characters - that is why campaign guidelines are used in many games.

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