Combat Skills Levels with engtangles

[nennafir]

Hi,

 

Can someone declare a combat skill level (say a 3 point one or perhaps an all-ranged one) to be used with an entangle?

 

If so, can it be used to "add damage" to the entangle? If so and the entangle does no damage does this mean it increases its duration or does nothing.

 

I am a little confused because entangles are listed as attack powers and also book II on the sidebar on page 69 talks about unusual haymakers like a haymaker on an entangle. So I am not sure if CSLs are supposed to be used this way or not.

 

Thanks!

[Christopher]

Re: Combat Skills Levels with engtangles

 

In 6E2 it specifically said that you can "Haymaker an Entangle". So yes, CSL and Martial Arts Bonus DC Apply to Entagles like everything else.

[Christopher]

Re: Combat Skills Levels with engtangles

 

Don't let names fool you. There are only concepts. The three basic concepts are: Characteristics, Powers and Skills.

Perqs a little bit outside, but talents are build as skills/powers so there is not really a distinction.

[Christopher]

Re: Combat Skills Levels with engtangles

 

Okay, I don't fully understand the rules but here is what I got.

Important rules are:

How to add damage/Damage Classes (6E2 96): Each +1 DC equals +5 Active Points for the Power. Since Killing attacks or ones with advantages cost more than 5 Points per Die, the get less bonus dies

How to use CSL's (6E1 69): You can allocate/assign CSL's once per Phase. You can only use CSL's, when you use the attack for that CSL in that phase (not using Blast means not using the CSL's for Blast).

How to use Combat Maneuvers (inlcuding Martial ones), 6E2 54.

 

You can assign CSL however you want (with the exception of 2-pt): More OCV, Bonus damage Clases, More DCV. They stay that way until you have a change to change them (either next phase or Abort to defensive Action).

Same goes with DC, OCV and DCV Modifiers for Combat Maneuvers. They stay until you have a change to act again (next phase or abort), but some give you additional modifiers only while they are done/maitained (Like Move-by/through attacks, Grab I think).

[ghost-angel]

Re: Combat Skills Levels with engtangles

 

Yes, two CSLs add one Damage Class, in this case +1d6, refer to Damage Adding rules in 6E2 to determine how many DCs are needed per the Active Points of each +1d6 of Entangle effect.

[Christopher]

Re: Combat Skills Levels with engtangles

 

Right, totally forgot the 2 CLS to 1 DC rule.

 

There is some additionl Rule about the DCV Bonus for any level under 10-points (all Combat):

It only works against attacks, for it could provide a OCV Bonus. So a CSL that only includes HTH-Attacks doesn't works against ranged and vice versa (this is only about general class: HTH or Ranged, not about what maneuvers/attacks it aplies to).

Having a 3-pt Group that includes HTH and Ranged requires GM-Permission (it is still very close at the Specific Weapon/Fighting Style). 5 and 8-pt can do this without GM-permission, while 10 counst for HTH and Ranged in the first place.

 

There is also this rule that "CSL to DCV are not Persistant, unlesss you have Defense Maneuver IV", but I don't know what this could mean.

 

As a side note: Martial Arts and CSLs (and OSLs) a basically pre-fabricated Multipowers. So whenever a Power would allow add or aply, they can apply.

[dsatow]

Re: Combat Skills Levels with engtangles

 

In 6E2 it specifically said that you can "Haymaker an Entangle". So yes' date=' CSL and Martial Arts Bonus DC Apply to Entagles like everything else.[/quote']

 

Errr, not exactly correct. MA bonus DC are solely for MA maneuvers which I don't remember there being an entangle maneuver. Of course, your GM is allowed to allow whatever in their game.

[Christopher]

Re: Combat Skills Levels with engtangles

 

Errr' date=' not exactly correct. MA bonus DC are solely for MA maneuvers which I don't remember there being an entangle maneuver. Of course, your GM is allowed to allow whatever in their game.[/quote']

And when you Martial Strike the Entangle?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Combat Skills Levels with engtangles

 

And when you Martial Strike the Entangle?

 

That would be Attacking an Entanfle, not Adding Damage Classes to one.

[Christopher]

Re: Combat Skills Levels with engtangles

 

That would be Attacking an Entanfle' date=' not Adding Damage Classes to one.[/quote']

You do not understand what I say.

I don't say Attack the Entangle with martial Strike.

I mean using the entangle with Martial Strike instead of (normal) Strike. Like you would use your Sword or Blast with Martial strike (or haymaker any of those).

Hugh said there are rules for Ranged Martial Combat and I have asked Steve Long if vanilla Martial Arts is limited to HTH, or it if can be used for any attack (power).

 

Depending on what he says, you might also be able to Martial Strike, Defense Strike or Offensive Strike an Entangle but let's first see what he says.

 

Of course, the guideline from 6E2 99 shouldn't be ignored. Anything beyond doubling could be too cheesy. And there are of course disadvanatages to such an aproach (like your MA perhaps not conting vs. walls and similar things or that you can't add it to a casual use; haymaker and normal maneuvers may get useless).

[ghost-angel]

Re: Combat Skills Levels with engtangles

 

I did understand, sort of.

 

Normally - no you cannot perform a Martial Maneuver with anything buy a Weapon using HKA or HA. Or a Ranged Martial Maneuver with anything but Blast and RKA weapons.

 

But, as I sit and think about it, I see no reason not to allow them to be used in conjunction with any weapon, regardless of what Power it uses.

 

I freely, quickly, and totally ignore the damage doubling rules. I think they are stupid for a whole slew of reasons that would slide this way off topic.

[Manic Typist]

Re: Combat Skills Levels with engtangles

 

I think he understood you. I think he was saying that, by default, you can't Martial Strike with Entangle. But I'll leave GA to confirm or deny this.

[Christopher]

Re: Combat Skills Levels with engtangles

 

Normally - no you cannot perform a Martial Maneuver with anything buy a Weapon using HKA or HA. Or a Ranged Martial Maneuver with anything but Blast and RKA weapons.

Is there are rule that specifically states it?

I couldn't find one clear statement in 6E1 or 6E2 and when reading the book we quite often come to the point that we imply to much into Name of a Rule/Concept.

 

About the doubling: It should be enforced, especially for martial added DC's. They are cheaper than buying straight DC (slighty countered by the rule that you have to buy 10 AP of non +1 DC, but offensive Strike gives you 4 and is worth half of the 10) and AFAIK they don't Cost Endurance to use (unlike Normal Maneuvers).

It means you had to buy at least 35 AP worth of power/STR before you can get to 70 AP (the equivalent of a 10 DC with Haymaker/Offensive Strike).

[nennafir]

Re: Combat Skills Levels with engtangles

 

Thanks to everyone for all of the replies. I have to say that this is a very helpful board. Lots of replies that are helpful and no responses of "oh no not that noob question again."

 

Anyway, thanks. I am trying to GM a new Hero game and hopefully not make too much of a mess of things...

[dsatow]

Re: Combat Skills Levels with engtangles

 

Per the HSMA, the damage portion of a maneuver is a strike or HA (see creating your own maneuvers). You could define the martial maneuver as +DC to a weapon, but I think the +DCs for weapon maneuvers only apply to Strikes(aka Blasts/STR) and KAs.

 

Martial Arts as designed are not a way to get bonus and increase powers of specialty attacks unless your GM says its allowed. A Martial Flash doesn't add to a super power flash attack again unless the GM allows the maneuver to occur (ex: A bright light flash and a poke in an eye do not stack).

 

I don't have the HSMA, but I am sure about the strike maneuver as I had to look it up in a game. This isn't to say you can use a martial strike to attack with an entangle. Its just the entangle doesn't get any bonus dice from the maneuver.

[Christopher]

Re: Combat Skills Levels with engtangles

 

Thanks to everyone for all of the replies. I have to say that this is a very helpful board. Lots of replies that are helpful and no responses of "oh no not that noob question again."

Actually the most simple question are often the best ones. As you can see, it can start near philosophical conversations about the rules and what they say/don't say:)

 

About the Martial Flash and similar Maneuvers (everything with NND, Killing Strike, Grab): the rules in 6E2 99 already say, that flash, choke and the like don't add dc since they don't offer any bonus to an attack (and don't even do normal strike damage) - they replace the normal effect with their rule and can't add damage to a HTH punch either.

However, I would Martial Strike/Offensive Strike/Haymaker the Flash Power, theoretically that could add dice as for an entangle. If it adds to non-damaging attacks in the first place.

 

Overall I could only make out three distinctive terms to differentiate Attacks: They are either HTH Attacks, Ranged Attacks or Mental Attacks. There does not seem to be any further distinction (except to go for distinctive maneuvers/powers).

At least for CSL's Entangle and Flash would simply be ranged attacks (unless you apply limitations, then they would become HTH).

 

I unfortunately don't have HSMA either and using citation of rules from memory has very often failed us. I hope Steve comes along to answer soon.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Combat Skills Levels with engtangles

 

Is there are rule that specifically states it?

I couldn't find one clear statement in 6E1 or 6E2 and when reading the book we quite often come to the point that we imply to much into Name of a Rule/Concept.

 

About the doubling: It should be enforced, especially for martial added DC's. They are cheaper than buying straight DC (slighty countered by the rule that you have to buy 10 AP of non +1 DC, but offensive Strike gives you 4 and is worth half of the 10) and AFAIK they don't Cost Endurance to use (unlike Normal Maneuvers).

It means you had to buy at least 35 AP worth of power/STR before you can get to 70 AP (the equivalent of a 10 DC with Haymaker/Offensive Strike).

 

Martial Maneuvers traditionally add Damage, Entangle is not Damage. So, traditionally, no you could never use them for anything that wasn't a Damage Effect.

 

As I said, it makes sense you could use them to add onto any weapon, especially since the idea that any Power can be measured in Damage Classes (which wasn't always the case).

 

And I don't particularly care what your views on the damage doubling rules are. I think they're more a hindrance than a help. I'm glad they're Optional now.

[Christopher]

Re: Combat Skills Levels with engtangles

 

And I don't particularly care what your views on the damage doubling rules are. I think they're more a hindrance than a help. I'm glad they're Optional now.

Just an example:

60 AP Blast costs, without Limitations: 60 Real Cost and 6 END to use.

20 AP Blast + 10 Point Martial Arts (containing Offensive Strike) + 4 DC are 60 AP in effect: 46 Real Cost and 2 END to use...

 

And depending on how MA is defined, could you add that to a different 20 AP Attack to, like Energy Punch or your ®KA, increasing the value even more?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Combat Skills Levels with engtangles

 

You absolutely cannot use Offensive Strike with Blast. Sorry. Martial Maneuvers cannot be used with Ranged Attacks. They are Hand To Hand Attacks.

 

Which brings us back to Entangle - it would have to be used with either Ranged Martial Maneuvers or bought No Range.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Combat Skills Levels with engtangles

 

You'd need ranged martial arts. As well, no other combat maneuver can be used when you use a Martial maneuver. That 60 AP Blast can be Haymakered, but a Martial attack cannot.

 

I would tend to agree that buying Martial DC's is problematic, but they too can only be used with martial maneuvers. No Strafe with that Offensive Strike blast - you need to choose one or the other. I'm drawing a blank on other non-martial maneuvers that work well with ranged attacks.

[phookz]

Re: Combat Skills Levels with engtangles

 

Yes' date=' two CSLs add one Damage Class, in this case +1d6, refer to Damage Adding rules in 6E2 to determine how many DCs are needed per the Active Points of each +1d6 of Entangle effect.[/quote']

 

So if 2 CSLs add one DC (as per 6E2 99), then wouldn't it take 4 CSLs to add +1d6 Entangle, since Entangle is 10 character points per 1d6?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Combat Skills Levels with engtangles

 

So if 2 CSLs add one DC (as per 6E2 99)' date=' then wouldn't it take 4 CSLs to add +1d6 Entangle, since Entangle is 10 character points per 1d6?[/quote']

 

Yes.

[Christopher]

Re: Combat Skills Levels with engtangles

 

You absolutely cannot use Offensive Strike with Blast. Sorry. Martial Maneuvers cannot be used with Ranged Attacks. They are Hand To Hand Attacks.

 

Which brings us back to Entangle - it would have to be used with either Ranged Martial Maneuvers or bought No Range.

Of course, it need martial arts for the propper range (like it would need the right 8-pt CSL's).

 

So if 2 CSLs add one DC (as per 6E2 99)' date=' then wouldn't it take 4 CSLs to add +1d6 Entangle, since Entangle is 10 character points per 1d6?[/quote']

 

Yes.

That's not so clear: Haymakering(+4DC) clearly gives +2d6, but it doesn't add any PD/ED to the entangle (wich are part of the 10 Points Cost). It's one of the powers that wouldn't be worth multiples of 5 when nothing is added, so it makes the entire thing complicated.

 

You'd need ranged martial arts. As well' date=' no other combat maneuver can be used when you use a Martial maneuver. That 60 AP Blast can be Haymakered, but a Martial attack cannot.[/quote']

Does this generally mean that Martial Arts is a once per mayor group of attacks thing (basically the same scope you would use for 8-pt CSL/6-pt MCSL)?

Is there a big difference (things other than "Must do Knockback for things like Legsweep/Trip" and "Grab/Throw require Telekinesis") between normal and Ranged Martial Arts?

Is the HSMA the place to look for these rules?

 

I was aware of the incompatibility to combine normal and Martial Maneuvers. Actually I consider the unability to use normal Combat Maneuvers effectively once Martial Arts is part of your damage calculation/CV's an important balacing factor for Martial Arts (after all, they are a Limited version of buying OCV, DCV and DC).

[ghost-angel]

Re: Combat Skills Levels with engtangles

 

(+4DC) clearly gives +2d6' date=' but it doesn't add any PD/ED to the entangle (wich are part of the 10 Points Cost). It's one of the powers that wouldn't be worth multiples of 5 when nothing is added, [b']so it makes the entire thing complicated[/b].

 

no it doesn't.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Combat Skills Levels with engtangles

 

Does this generally mean that Martial Arts is a once per mayor group of attacks thing (basically the same scope you would use for 8-pt CSL/6-pt MCSL)?

 

If you buy Martial Arts for HTH, they are normally usable for one attack type (Kung Fu is usable bare handed, and fencing with a sword). Adding other attack types (I want to use Karate bare handed or with my Sai) requires purchasing Weapon Elements. It would seem reasonable to impose the same requirement if you want to use ranged MA with multiple types of attacks.

 

Is there a big difference (things other than "Must do Knockback for things like Legsweep/Trip" and "Grab/Throw require Telekinesis") between normal and Ranged Martial Arts?

Is the HSMA the place to look for these rules?

 

Yes, there is a big difference. Yes, HSMA is the book with ranged martial arts rules in it.