CSL with Damage Class- and Combat Value Caps

[Christopher]

Hello,

 

I have a question to how you value Combat Skill Levels (CSL) in combination with Hard Caps on Damage Classes, OCV and DCV.

 

Asume a 6E Powerfull Heroic game with enforced hard caps:

225 Points, 50 Complications.

Damage Class Cap: 9 DC

OCV/DCV Cap: 8.

 

Asume you have a PC that is at said Limits (9 DC bith with at least 1 normal and 1 Killign attack, OCV: 8, DCV: 8) and you care for the limit.

a) Would you allow him to add CSL's to the mix?

How much of DC/OCV/DCV would he have to give up for each Level of CSL he wants to have?

c) Could he indirectly get beyond the DC/CV Cap, by giving up 2 OCV, 2 DCV and 1 DC, but adding 6 CSL's? (so when he puts everything into one area, he get's beyond that limit).

 

Thanks for Reading.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: CSL with Damage Class- and Combat Value Caps

 

If he's at the limits, then CSL's will take him over the limit. If it's a hard cap, then he can't be over the limit. So no CSL's.

 

Actually, this is why I hate hard caps. In your example, we would allow a character that has an OCV of 8, DCV of 8 and 9 DC's, but not allow him to have CSL's,

 

But a player who wants a 4 OCV, a 4 DCV and 7 DC's would be capped at 4 CSL's - he can never be competitive with the guy who buys OCV, DCV and DC's straight up. Maybe he should be able to have, say, 8 levels (OCV or DCV can hit 12, DC's can hit 11, but if he wants to match the first character in two areas, he has to take a hit on the third).

[Zane_Marlowe]

Re: CSL with Damage Class- and Combat Value Caps

 

I let players solve this one, and it's a set of excluding "whichever is lower" conditions. If you have CSLs, Martial Maneuvers, and characteristics that in any combination COULD put you over the hard limits, you'll have to bring whatever the exceeding value is in line with the campaign limits. That may mean that they spend a little less on a power or characteristic, but it protects the integrity of the fit between the character and the challenges in the world. When that's broken, then effectively challenging the group means challenging that player, and if everyone else is in line with the campaign limits, then that means those people are going to get clobbered by whatever villain or challenge your exceeding player is on par with. If the player has too much offense, then that means villains with defenses that make the other players' attacks difficult or impossible, so they'll get frustrated because they're ineffective. If the player has too much defense, then that means villains with attacks that cut through the rest of the party, so they'll get frustrated because you're apparently killing them for no good reason.

[Christopher]

Re: CSL with Damage Class- and Combat Value Caps

 

This is exaclty what I thaught of.

 

But a player who wants a 4 OCV' date=' a 4 DCV and 7 DC's would be capped at 4 CSL's - he can never be competitive with the guy who buys OCV, DCV and DC's straight up. Maybe he should be able to have, say, 8 levels (OCV or DCV can hit 12, DC's can hit 11, but if he wants to match the first character in two areas, he has to take a hit on the third).[/quote']

He could buy +3 Limited OCV and DCV respectively. To bad you can't put Limitations for "only for x" on them.

But it could actually be part of the balacing so you can't save points that you just invest to compensate the negative effect of saving points has.

 

This way CSL seem to me more and more like a OCV/DCV/Damage Multipower. You save points, but it cost's you (in overall OCV, DCV and Damage) so you are better of directly buying it.

[Christopher]

Re: CSL with Damage Class- and Combat Value Caps

 

I am not so certain where I would but Martial Arts (this would have been a Follow up question). I would ahve thought of Martial Strike as the new Strike. The others are relative to Martial Strike, like the normal combat maneuvers to normal strike: You get something, but you also loose something realtive to MS.

For example:

Offensive Strike give you +2DC realtive to Martial Strike, but you also have -2 OCV and -1 DCV relative to it (+20 AP, -30 AP). So it is more like a Haymaker (but not that extreme).

 

So I thought it may be suficcient to go down so much that Martial Strike would be in the Limit (i.e. -2 DCV and -2 DC for the eample Character) and let the others exeed it, just like you would haymaker and normal dodge exceed the limit...

 

Edit: More examples.

Martial Dodge gives you a +2 DCV compared to Dodge

Martial Block +2OCV and +2 DCV compared to Block (but the OCV bonus is actually just a +2 Defense Bonus thus I can be ignored for overall OCV).

Similar comparsiosn can be made for Trip, Choke, Throw and their Martial Counterparts...

Defense Strike gives you, relative to Martial Strike, +1 OCV, +1 DCV, -2 DC

[Christopher]

Re: CSL with Damage Class- and Combat Value Caps

 

Actually, this is why I hate hard caps. In your example, we would allow a character that has an OCV of 8, DCV of 8 and 9 DC's, but not allow him to have CSL's,

 

But a player who wants a 4 OCV, a 4 DCV and 7 DC's would be capped at 4 CSL's - he can never be competitive with the guy who buys OCV, DCV and DC's straight up. Maybe he should be able to have, say, 8 levels (OCV or DCV can hit 12, DC's can hit 11, but if he wants to match the first character in two areas, he has to take a hit on the third).

Actually I think I see the reason now: CSL's doesn't mean you are better at combat. It means you are weaker than someone who buys straigh CV's and DC.

Same goes for Martial Arts.

 

Both are just limited forms of what you buy normally: OCV, DCV and Damage Classes. For your example with the 7/7/9 and the 4/4/7 Guys:

What are their values when not using their main Weapons/Fighting Forms? (so they can't Apply artial Arts/CSL's)

Ausming we talk about HTH and the DC's are 100% from STR:

7/7/45 STR is definitely a better warrior that the guy with 4/4/35 STR. The later one wanted to have equal Combat Abilites in one close area. While the other is really a good warrior (no matter what weapon you give him or if he has to fight bare handed).