Sawed Off Shotguns

[Hida Tsuzua]

While I was outfitting some gangers from the HSEG, I noticed the sawed off shotgun. It's an Autofire 2 Area of Effect 16m Cone +1 Stun Multiple No Range Reduced by Range Reduced Penetration 2.5d6 RKA. While the autofire 2 makes sense since it's a double barreled shotgun, I'm wondering if the conic part might be too much from a gameplay or realism standpoint.

 

Basically it means that out from 8m, it's a 2.5d6 RKA. Out to 16m, it's a 2d6+1 RKA. This seems high for the amount of area that is covered. If you had 8-16 guys (depending on the size of your hex) standing next to each other 16m away you'll hit all of them with a 2d6+1 RKA. This seems a tad much for a 12 gauge round. I could maybe see a pellet reaching each of them, but does a pellet do 2d6+1 killing damage? However I could be wrong there and if anyone has information on this, I'll like to look at it just so I know more about them.

 

There's also the gameplay concern that it's an large attack (20 DCs not counting the AE) that covers a large portion of the board. Sure it's got issues with friendly fire, but it's nasty as all heck. Basically you can hit a ton of dudes twice with the equivalent to a .44 magnum round. Reloading is a pain, but for mooks and some PCs, that's not too bad of a drawback.

 

It is reduced penetration so you're unlikely to kill armored people. However you'll still likely do a ton of stun to them with +1 stun multiple.

 

I'm wondering if it shouldn't explosion or nonselective. What is everyone's thoughts?

[Vulcan]

Re: Sawed Off Shotguns

 

Nonselective doesn't sound unrealistic; it's highly unlikely to hit everyone in the area that hard.

 

Or, if you want a nod toward greater realism, add a side effect and make the damage taper off away from the center of the area.

[Zeropoint]

Re: Sawed Off Shotguns

 

AOE: Cone is way too generous, I think. While I've never had any experience with a sawed-off shotgun (don't feel like paying the BATF fee), a cylinder bore coach gun with 18" barrels yields a spread of less than two feet at ten yards. I don't imagine a sawed-off shotgun would yield much more spread.

 

Having used a shotgun for cowboy action shooting, I can tell you that they're not the area effect weapons that they're sometimes made out to be. It's entirely possible to miss.

[Starcloud]

Re: Sawed Off Shotguns

 

Shotguns really shouldn't be a cone effect. While there is some spread, there's not *that* much spread regardless of the choke setting. I might make it AOE (one hex) and slap on the Beam limitation if that's not already included in how Real Weapons are defined for firearms in the campaign.

[Orion]

Re: Sawed Off Shotguns

 

I could maybe see a pellet reaching each of them, but does a pellet do 2d6+1 killing damage? However I could be wrong there and if anyone has information on this, I'll like to look at it just so I know more about them.

 

Even if using 00 buckshot, which is about .33 caliber, I say you need to be hit with more than one to justify 2d6+1. And 00 buckshot only has about 12 pellets in the typical shell as I remember. I've used them to shoot wild pigs, and they do far less damage than a rifle of the same caliber. I'd only allow 2d6+1 if all the pellets hit the same person, and that person was 10-20 feet away - just enough to let the shot spread and create multiple small wounds instead of one big hole.

[Legendsmiths]

Re: Sawed Off Shotguns

 

This is what I do - I'm pretty critical about how firearms work in my games and I agree that AE for shotguns is a bit too cinematic.

 

http://www.legendsmiths.com/rule-options/shotguns

 

This approach I think really speaks to the niche that shotguns occupy. They are effective at close range and are more likely to result in a hit at that range than pistols or rifles. However, they are limited and there are times when a pistol or a rifle is a better way to go.

[Tom]

Re: Sawed Off Shotguns

 

AOE (accurate) is how I usually handle shotguns. You've got a better chance of hitting, but you're not clearing the area of anything standing.

 

If you wanted the 'Cone' to simulate the possibility of collateral damage, I'd be inclined to make it an Explosion rather than a straight AOE. Non-Selective would also probably be appropriate.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Sawed Off Shotguns

 

You're forgetting the Reduced Penetration - it's not 2.5D6 - it's two 1D6+1 Attacks that add stun together. Anyone wearing a good kevlar vest will likely have their bell rung, but probably won't get hurt.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Sawed Off Shotguns

 

4E and earlier had a different system for shotguns, simulating pellet hits. Each pellet did 1d6K, IIRC, and you could hit with 1-4 pellets, but I don't remember the exact procedure to determine how many hit...

[Hida Tsuzua]

Re: Sawed Off Shotguns

 

You're forgetting the Reduced Penetration - it's not 2.5D6 - it's two 1D6+1 Attacks that add stun together. Anyone wearing a good kevlar vest will likely have their bell rung' date=' but probably won't get hurt.[/quote']

 

While that is true, all that means it won't cause a 16m cone of destruction destroying walls, chairs and everything else. It does still mean that a sawed off shotgun is really good at knocking people out if they're wearing armor. This is especially true since Dark Champions games often assume hit locations and a x3 base stun multiple or rather x4 since shotguns have a +1 stun multiple.

 

Also, my issue isn't so much the damage on its own (which is nasty but easily survivable with armor as it should be) per se, but rather the vast area it covers. A sawed off shotgun covers 134 square meters with at least 2d6+1 Killing Damage. A regular shotgun covers only 3.14 square meters in comparison.

 

While it seems like AE on a shotgun is cinematic, I do think I'll want to keep that aspect of shotguns. It gives them a niche. mudpyr8's work is interesting and I'm sure more accurate, having only +1 OCV over other firearms isn't that big of a deal. And I'll rather keep the changes to firearms due to houserules to a minimum so I can use the HSEG "as is" as closely as I can.

 

I'm wondering if sawing off a shotgun shouldn't just improve the concealment modifier and reduce the range to 16m. It's easy to remember and requires changes to one type of weapon.

[Legendsmiths]

Re: Sawed Off Shotguns

 

I don't know about the range impact, but the concealment modifier to be sure (thanks for the nod to my build). For those not wanting to follow the link, here's my summary of the key distinguishing features:

 

The primary advantage of sawed-off shotguns is their maneuverability and concealability. The spread pattern does not change all that much. The Concealment modifier for hiding a Shotgun is +4 to +7, depending on its size. Using the standard gauges above, a 4g would be +7, 10-12g +6, 16-20g +5, and 28g-.410 +4. Converting such a weapon to a sawed-off would reduce this modifier. The reduced size allows their use in close combat (even while grabbed) without penalty, much like a pistol.

• Conealment Modifier drops by 2
  
• STR Min drops by 1
  
• Mass drops by 25%
  
• Remove the limitation Required Hands: Two-Handed (-½)
  
• Weapon size is now "short" (allows use during Grab)
  
• OCV bonus is reduced to +1 with no choke control
  

 

Otherwise, they are a Basic Shotgun: +2 OCV, +1 STUNx, No Range Modifier, Reduced by Range, Reduced Penetration, Limited Range (40m), Requires Hands: Two-Handed, STR Minimum, Real Weapon

 

Hida - I too would like to use the HSEG as is, just to keep things simple, but the whole AE thing just doesn't jive. Since there isn't an HD prefab anyway, and I have to build one for my players, I build it for me the way I think best represents reality.

 

This gives Shotguns a nice niche, but you always have to have the right tool for the job.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Sawed Off Shotguns

 

The only change I would make is AoE Cone Explosive with a -1DC every 4m in the cone. So by the end you're taking two 1pip KAs.

[Starcloud]

Re: Sawed Off Shotguns

 

I wouldn't do that. Unless you're firing birdshot. Each pellet in 00 buckshot is, if I recall correctly, about 9 mm in diameter, and they're still traveling at several hundred feet per second.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Sawed Off Shotguns

 

I wouldn't do that. Unless you're firing birdshot. Each pellet in 00 buckshot is' date=' if I recall correctly, about 9 mm in diameter, and they're still traveling at several hundred feet per second.[/quote']

 

The explosion simulates not loss of velocity, but loss of density of shot, getting hit by less pellets as distance goes out.

 

Also, there's always just reducing the AoE to something smaller, you can drop it as low as a 9m Cone without even changing the build.

[Starcloud]

Re: Sawed Off Shotguns

 

That was my point. The thing is, if you get hit by ONE 9 mm pellet travelling at 600 feet per second, it's not going to just plink you. Either you get missed by them all, or you get hit by one or more pellets. There is no in between.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Sawed Off Shotguns

 

Doubt Ought buck is 8.4mm, a single shell holds 7-9 pellets.

 

So, even just assuming the idea of a 16m cone, you can hit a maximum of 9 people with one shell, 18 with two. I personally find the whole construct suspect, and wouldn't use it at all if I wanted a 'realistic sawed off blast' - but since we're using that build I'm suggesting ways to work with the idea that close up is more deadly than far away.

 

Buck are not bullets, the round shot reacts completely differently than the elongated bullet as well. And the text doesn't really address using a choke to increase effective range, packing the shell (sawdust is common) to tighten the pattern, or any number of tricks with shells to adjust how it spreads. If I really wanted to get into I would have to completely rewrite the section on shotguns.

 

I don't. Explosive Cone works pretty much perfectly for me: up close you can get hit with multiple pellets which will do more damage than getting hit with a single pellet.

[Starcloud]

Re: Sawed Off Shotguns

 

Which again is why I say the idea of a sawed off double barrel being able to cover that much area is a silly one. It should never have been written up that way in the first place.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Sawed Off Shotguns

 

Well then, let's remodel the thing from the ground up; or give it a shot. (ha!)

 

Double Barrel 12 Guage, 00 shell, no packing to reduce spread, sawed off barrel (no choke, and reduced effective range, faster spread).

 

A normal 12 is good out to about 55 yards (~50m) with that kind of shell, give or take. this thing, probably good for a lot less than that, call it a third? so ~16m.

 

no choke, no packing the shell so the shot spreads rapidly and early. a Cone Area Of Effect is good for that. If you think a 60 deg cone is too wide, choose the 30 deg option.

 

Each shell has about 7-9 8.4mm pellets. I am of the opinion that even though they're decent sized they won't be as damaging as a bullet of the same size, most 9mm guns in the book do 1D6+1, let's say one pellet does 1D6 KA just to be easy about it.

 

so far: 1D6 RKA, AoE 16m Cone.

 

Let's cut out some variables as assume one shell holds 8 pellets. Add Autofire 8 + 8 Charges to the mess. (1D6 RKA, AoE 16m Cone, AF 8, Charges: 8) [all Charges always fired, IOW the AF is always on]

 

Now, we need to somehow simulate that you can either get hit by lots of these things, or even none of them (if, say, you're at the extreme range and a buncha your friendly neighborhood mooks soaked up a whole buncha the suckers).

 

We could go "Non Selective" with our AoE, now we've taken into account the possibility of missing completely with our 8 pellets, or hitting one target a bunch of times. Of course, the maximum number of hits we can dish out is 8. So you'll need to count, and I suggest SFX dictates that you start with the closest target and go further our until you run out of Charges.

 

Firing Both Barrels:

 

Option 1: up the Autofire to 16, you have two modes: Fire 8, Fire 16.

Option 2: Make the build 2D6 with Reduce Penetration (but each target is now hit with two pellets per hit, instead of one - not really what we're looking for).

Option 3: Buy two 'Clips' as part of the Charges, allow Multiple Attack to fire both at once. (I'd choose this one)

 

Final Build: Sawed Off Shotgun: Killing Attack - Ranged 1d6, Area Of Effect Nonselective (16m Cone; +1/4), Autofire (8 shots; +2) (49 Active Points); OAF (-1), No Range (-1/2), Real Weapon (-1/4), STR Minimum 5 (-1/4), 2 clips of 8 Charges (-1/4) [Real Cost: 15]

 

+1 Stun Multiple and/or Required Hands: 2 Hands can be added as you see fit, I left 'em off because I think the +1 Stun Multiple isn't really accurate, and I always like the option of the heroic One Handed Firing Style... There's an assumed +0 Advantage; Both Clips Loaded, Can Be Multiple Attacked and a -0 Limitation; Each shell requires a Full Phase (2 Phases to reload both shells, unless Fast Draw SR is made, then both Shells can be loaded in 1 Phase). I think those two balance each other out nicely to be honest. If not, then it's probably a +1/4 Advantage and a -1/4 Limitation.

 

That sound like a better Sawed Off?

[Legendsmiths]

Re: Sawed Off Shotguns

 

Well then, let's remodel the thing from the ground up; or give it a shot. (ha!)

...

That sound like a better Sawed Off?

 

I don't think AF is the right approach either. I also don't think Reduced Pen is really about modelling specifically 2 pellet hits. I think Reduced Pen is fine, cinematically.

 

I am firmly against AE: Cone.

 

Ballistics show there isn't a difference in spread between a sawed-off and a regular shotgun. It's purely about maneuverability and concealment, at the expense of aimed accuracy.

 

I'm against AE for any Shotgun - the point of the shot is to improve your chances of hitting, not hitting an area per se. When you look at the size of the shot pattern it doesn't approach a 1m radius area (IIRC from my research before I came up with my approach).

 

One possibility would be to build it as a multiple power attack, which is the most realistic. Decide how much each pellet will do and then build that many attacks. Considering a 2 1/2d6K - 8 DC. If there are 8 pellets, then you could simply do 1 DC per pellet - I don't know as that works however as birdshot is 25 pellets or more. Perhaps birdshot makes it normal damage.

 

I'm more inclined to stay with a dramatic interpretation and go with this:

slug = full DC, no reduced pen, better range, +1 STUNx

combat shot = full DC, reduced pen, reduced by range, 50m range, +1 STUNx

bird shot = 1/2 DC, reduced pen, reduced by range, 50m range, +3 STUNx

 

So, at 8 DC a slug would be 2 1/2d6K and average 9x4 = 36 STUN. Combat shot would be 2x1d6+1K and average 9x4 = 36 STUN. Bird shot would be 2x1/2d6K and average 4x6 = 24 STUN.

 

Since with shot you only have a 50m range, that's why I added no range mod. Then open choke is +2 OCV, half choke is +1 OCV but keep full damage out to 16m, and full choke is +0 OCV and keep full damage out to 32m.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Sawed Off Shotguns

 

I'm against AE for any Shotgun - the point of the shot is to improve your chances of hitting' date=' not hitting an area per se. [/quote']

 

Kind of why I chose NonSelective - because there IS a spread, unlike a bullet or slug which is a single chunk of metal going down range.

 

But, whatever suits your game.

[Legendsmiths]

Re: Sawed Off Shotguns

 

Kind of why I chose NonSelective - because there IS a spread, unlike a bullet or slug which is a single chunk of metal going down range.

 

But, whatever suits your game.

 

Agreed, but it does allow you to attack multiple targets in that area. You could add an additional limitation (maybe -1/4?):

Must attack targets in order and no further targets struck once a hit is scored.

 

That would give you the AE but still restrict it to hitting a single target. That might be a way to go.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Sawed Off Shotguns

 

I'd be more inclined to reduce the AoE to a Narrow Cone instead. I see no reason why multiple pellets shouldn't be allowed to strike multiple targets - because once again, it is still a spread and it is absolutely possibly to hit more than one object with a shell blast. You're shooting the equivalent of 8 tiny round bullets down range, the pattern is not that tight, especially without a choke (which almost all shotguns use) or packing the shell.

[Starcloud]

Re: Sawed Off Shotguns

 

0 choke, 0 constriction. At 37 METERS the entire spread pattern is 150.. CENTImeters.

That's considerably less than a 30 degree spread.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Sawed Off Shotguns

 

Then change it to AoE: Line.

 

150cm is 60 Inches across, that's a 5 foot spread.

[Orion]

Re: Sawed Off Shotguns

 

The primary advantage of sawed-off shotguns is their maneuverability and concealability. The spread pattern does not change all that much. The Concealment modifier for hiding a Shotgun is +4 to +7' date=' depending on its size. Using the standard gauges above, a 4g would be +7, 10-12g +6, 16-20g +5, and 28g-.410 +4.[/quote']

 

Don't know that I can agree with modification by gauge. My 12g and .410 are the same length, and nearly the same weight. For that matter, the 12g can be disassembled much easier, and to a smaller size. There's also some shotguns that merely switch out parts so that the gun stays the same size, but the bore changes. I would base the concealment modifier strictly on total length, as both stock and barrel can be shortened.