VPP acting like a multipower ?

[Rakshasa]

I'm trying to build a versatile power armor. In the game, the pilot has a choice between 5 modes, deciding which to choose at the beginning of his phase. The first three are classic : Power (more Strength), Speed (high velocity Movement), and Reach (Ranged Attack). That works like a regular multipower. The last two are custom, and can be changed in a matter of hours back in the lab. Those can only be simulated by a VPP.

 

If I am to include all these in a single structure (doing otherwise would cost twice as much), it must thus be a VPP. Since changing between any mode is a free action, I think it is a Cosmic VPP.

 

Now how much of a limitation is : Only 5 Possiblities, only 2 of which can change in hours and in a lab ?

 

I know Change in a lab is only -1/2, and this is less restrictive, but the example Gadget Pool is not Cosmic. I think the loss of versatility compared to an unlimited Cosmic Pool is huge, and since this limitation will affect only the control pool, versatility is the only factor to consider.

 

All things considered, I would say -1. What do you think ?

 

Rakshasa.

[acowie]

I think paying a control cost of 0.75xVPP size (Cosmic+2, Limited Power-1) sounds entirely reasonable given the restrictions listed.

Difficult to say more, really, though I'd be interested to see the result.

[Zed-F]

I would probably give you a -1/4 for a slightly limited selection of powers/time to change powers limitation. You can have a certain specific set of powers instantly, or any power in the book given time.

 

Probably you would have a -1/2 for OIF armour, assuming that if you lose the whole suit you can't just rebuild one in the lab relatively easily.

 

You might have a -1/4 limited selection of powers (technology) if you can describe some additional restrictions on what powers you can take, based on your technological SFX. I don't allow a -1/4 just for an SFX with no associated restrictions, though.

 

So, total -3/4 to -1, depending on how restricted your technological power selection is.

[acowie]

Originally posted by Zed-F

I would probably give you a -1/4 for a slightly limited selection of powers/time to change powers limitation. You can have a certain specific set of powers instantly, or any power in the book given time.

 

>>Not strictly true - he only has five possible combinations of powers. The other two just take longer. The key thing is he is paying the +2 on control for Cosmic. If all needed to be changed in a lab he would be paying 0.33xVPP size for Control (including the -1/2). If he could change anything at any time he would pay 1.5xVPP size (full on Cosmic). I reckon 0.75xVPP is a reasonable compromise.

 

Probably you would have a -1/2 for OIF armour, assuming that if you lose the whole suit you can't just rebuild one in the lab relatively easily.

 

>>Sounds good if he envisages playing without it on occasion. Could take the usual OIHID (-1/4), or nothing if he really wants to have his armour all the time.

 

You might have a -1/4 limited selection of powers (technology) if you can describe some additional restrictions on what powers you can take, based on your technological SFX. I don't allow a -1/4 just for an SFX with no associated restrictions, though.

 

So, total -3/4 to -1, depending on how restricted your technological power selection is.

 

As I said - I'd be interested in the details of the five different settings if I were reffing.

[Rakshasa]

The concept does imply that I will be using some kind of Focus (I'm leaning towards OIHID, since almost all my powers will be based on the suit). And the mandatory limitation for the VPP will of course be "-1/4 Technological SFX" (which does imply restrictions, but nothing explicit : every power construction will have to be explained by technology, with as little techno-babble as possible)

 

But I think this is irrelevant for the question asked, because the same question could concern a mage that knows very well a few spell, and can memorize a few more given time and study.

 

In fact, I find the construct so natural I'm surprised it's never been considered in the rules.

 

 

If you study the cost of a VPP that changes only in a lab, the control cost is 1/3 of the VPP size. In multipower terms, it costs about the same as 3 full ultra slots.

 

If I use this approximation to create a new sort of slot for the multipower (Versatile Slot : costs max AP/3, can be changed in specific circumstances), the cost of the hybrid is even more precise :

 

- 3 fixed slots (10% of size each)

- 2 versatile slots (33% of size each)

 

which gives a "control cost" of 96%. That could mean I was a bit generous in my -1 estimation. -1/2 would be closer to that calculation.

 

Any more thoughts ?

 

Rakshasa.

[McCoy]

Re: VPP acting like a multipower ?

 

Originally posted by Rakshasa

I'm trying to build a versatile power armor. In the game, the pilot has a choice between 5 modes, deciding which to choose at the beginning of his phase. The first three are classic : Power (more Strength), Speed (high velocity Movement), and Reach (Ranged Attack). That works like a regular multipower. The last two are custom, and can be changed in a matter of hours back in the lab. Those can only be simulated by a VPP.

 

If I am to include all these in a single structure (doing otherwise would cost twice as much), it must thus be a VPP. Since changing between any mode is a free action, I think it is a Cosmic VPP.

 

I don't agree. I think you can do this through a MP. Take the first three as normal ultra slots. Take a limitation on the other two, "can only be selected (or deselected) with lab access and extra time." This would be worth at least -3 for extra time. This way you don't have to pay for the Cosmic advantage on the pool.

[zornwil]

Re: Re: VPP acting like a multipower ?

 

Originally posted by McCoy

I don't agree. I think you can do this through a MP. Take the first three as normal ultra slots. Take a limitation on the other two, "can only be selected (or deselected) with lab access and extra time." This would be worth at least -3 for extra time. This way you don't have to pay for the Cosmic advantage on the pool.

 

But the other two aren't actual defined powers. And VPP is made specifically for this kind of construct. If you want to put undefined powers into an MP, there should be a very different way of handling them, like with a slot that costs points/2 (or similar) instead of variable slots' points/5.

 

I do believe there's a -1 or similar for the VPP control cost for "only change between adventures".

[McCoy]

Let me deal another joker from the deck. Have you considered multiform? One form has the three slot multipower, the two specalized ones seperate forms.

 

In any event, I also would be interested in seeing the final result.

[Zed-F]

Originally posted by acowie

>>Not strictly true - he only has five possible combinations of powers. The other two just take longer.

As far as I can see, he has 3 fixed power-sets & 2 "anything" power-sets. From the original post,

The last two are custom, and can be changed in a matter of hours back in the lab.

So, he really can have anything, given time.

 

And the mandatory limitation for the VPP will of course be "-1/4 Technological SFX" (which does imply restrictions, but nothing explicit : every power construction will have to be explained by technology, with as little techno-babble as possible)

Mandatory SFX alone does not qualify for a -1/4 limitation in my book. I can dream up a technological basis for any power in the book. Merely the fact that it has a common SFX is not sufficient to merit a limitation. For me to grant a -1/4 lim on a VPP, there must be a quantifyable restriction on how you can use the pool, or at least examples of what you expect to be able to do, and what you expect not to be able to do, as far as power construction goes (not just what SFX your powers have.)

 

Multiform is a good idea, though I would build it as 5 forms. You can have 2 separate VPPs for 2 of your forms, which you can change independently. The remainder of your forms would have MPs instead. This way you can also adjust stats, etc. that are bought through the armour specifically for each form.

[Vondy]

what about building each set of powers out of the pool and adding the following lims:

 

may only use pre-engineered power suites (-1/2)

may only have "x" power suites intalled at one time (-1/4)

[Rakshasa]

I think the design I described in my first post is both legal and cost-effective. I just need to fine-tune the level of the custom limitation.

 

Of course there are other ways to achieve the same result, but I can't see how anything would be gained from doing so.

 

For example multiform would use half a phase each time the suit changed modes (although it would be very cheap). And the AP limit in my campaign would only allow weak forms.

 

That's not really the subject of the thread, but I believe the -1/4 "Only one SFX" is appropriate for VPPs. It ensures that the GM can devise countermeasures that the VPP won't circumvent. A suppress field against technological powers (defined as an intense magnetic field perharps) will neutralize anything my VPP could produce : the loss of versatility should be worth something.

 

Rakshasa.

[McCoy]

Seems like I've got a different interpetation from everyone else of "The last two are custom, and can be changed in a matter of hours back in the lab. "

 

I interpeted this as two configurations of the armor (such as Stealth Mode and Deep Space Mode, drawing from Iron Man) that defied easy definitions, that required parts and tools that he did not normally have with him.

 

Others seem to interpet this as modes that can be infinitely modified in the lab. If so, why would he need two customizeable modes?

 

Rakshasa, could you please clairify?

[Vondy]

I can't speak for the evil tiger spirit with backwards hands, but...

 

Maybe the armor has a finete number of circuit-nodes and can only accomodate so many at one time. The nodes for different power suites could be modular (requiring a small time investment in the lab to change over).

 

As expensive as it is... the iron man way (multiple suits of armor for multiple scenarios) could also work. Buy the focus with the X2 focus for 5 points adder. 10 Points = 4 suits.

 

I think a -1/4 advantage is justifiable if it limits the available sfx of the pool. A telepath with a VPP limited to "telepathic effects" can do a lot, but they can't do TK, Force Walls, or Force Fields (classic comic book mentalist schticks), or shoot energy blasts, or become desolid. In fact, for that one, I would likely give -1/2.

 

"Technology" is a little loose, but insofar as the player is clear about what FX it excludes (you don't see iron man reading minds for instace) then it is reasonable and appropriate.

[zornwil]

If he's saying this is "realistic" technology I'd definitely give a -1/4 - or more - if this is a Champions game. Realistic technology limits the options much more severely than most VPP foundations and is also really easy to counter by just regular guys with gadgets. I'd probably go -1/2 or -1 if it's your typical fantastic game.

[Killer Shrike]

Take a "Set List Of Powers Available" Lim on the VPP Control Cost, with the Set List defined as 5 specific "Suits of Armor" which are a collection of associated gadgets and powers.

 

Take No Skill Roll Required, 0 Phase Change on the VPP.

 

On the "Suits" that take time and need to be done in a lab apply Extra Time, Limited Circumtances, and whatever else.

 

The end result will be that the Extra Time Suits will have more bits bcs you can fit more limited powers into the VPP than with the quick-change suits that arent as heavily limited.

[Zed-F]

Originally posted by Rakshasa

For example multiform would use half a phase each time the suit changed modes (although it would be very cheap).

That's easily resolved, a 5-point adder makes it a 0-phase action. However, if you prefer to do it the other way, that's your call.

 

"Technology" is a little loose, but insofar as the player is clear about what FX it excludes (you don't see iron man reading minds for instace) then it is reasonable and appropriate.

That's my point. If there is a broad conception that you have about what can and cannot commonly be accomplished using your technology, I would be inclined to give a -1/4 lim. If a mind-reading device (or a device for any power) is within your conception, no -1/4 lim for you. An ability to drain based on your mandatory SFX is a common limitation of all VPPs, so you don't get extra points for that; without it, VPPs would be even more expensive.

[Farkling]

For clarification::

As I read your post, you have the following in mind::

1) Powered Armor

2) Travel Armor

3) Ranged Armor

4) Custom A

5) Custom B

And these are your VPP presets...Custom A and Custom B can be reconfigured at the lab with some research time, correct?

I don't think it IS a limitation. If you CHOOSE to use three of the same configurations constantly (much like Iron Man), that isn't a limit, it's a choice made on your behalf.

 

So, if this IS a group of predefined powers, and you want flexibility on Slots 4 and 5. A sample configuration may be::

1) Powered Armor

2) Travel Armor

3) Ranged Armor

4) Deep Space Armor

5) Deep Sea Armor

And suits 4 and 5 can be "reconfigured" at the lab.

And you wish to set the POWERS of configurations 4 and 5 at the lab. Hmm. Somebody muzzle Hugh and Gary...I'm about to depart my normal restrictions.

 

You could set the Power Armor, Travel Armor, Ranged Armor as a Multipower construct...

And include an additional (limited?) VPP for the additional construction mods. I don't like that though. It's counter to my campaign designs, AND it is not elegant, AND I don't think it meets his criteria. It is described as a package deal.

 

>>Not strictly true - he only has five possible combinations of powers. The other two just take longer.

As I understand it, he simply wants the right to change settings 4 and 5 at the lab.

 

So it is a Cosmic Pool, with the hideous Control Cost, OIF, and limited set of powers (the list of five configurations)

 

Consider this as an option... Allow purchase of the VPP with a Control Roll and 0 phase action. Then he can put a bonus to the control roll in or out of the pool defined as "only in combat to switch to predefined power configuration." The retooling of his presets can then ONLY be done at the lab...because making the roll in combat will be implausible. (Imagine reconfiguring (100 AP) everything at -10 to the roll in combat with the base level roll). Hmm. This allows for some minor reconfiguring on the fly also, like burning out the radio circuits to temporarily boost the STR or bonuses to hit.

 

So, Control Cost, OIF, 0 Phase Control Roll. (-0) Configurations can be redesigned in hours at the lab

+x (The AP/10 of the configuration variance would be good), Only in combat for predefined configurations.

 

dons asbestos suit

Flame on

[Rakshasa]

Seems like contributors have been busy while I was away...

 

To clarify the result I expect : I think the final power would look like a multipower, with 3 predefined fixed slots (extra Strength, Megascale Flight, Energy Blast) and 2 fixed slots that can contain anything. While in combat, I can switch to any slot at the beginning of the phase, like a multipower (simulating the redistribution of energy among the circuits). And at the lab, given a few hours, I can change the contents of the variable slots (simulating the reconfiguration of the circuits).

 

The idea is to have the options array of a regular multipower in the heat of battle, and adapt (more slowly) to the environment or the threat of the current plot.

 

While I appreciate all the effort gone into providing alternative constructions, I still believe there's nothing wrong with my limitation on a Cosmic Pool. Now I just need to gather some opinions about the value of said limitations.

 

Rakshasa.

[McCoy]

I stand corrected. VPP is the way to go on this.