VPP without AP limit

[Alcamtar]

For a VPP with x2 AP limit, what advantage would you apply to the control cost?

 

What about for a VPP with *no* AP limit? What should the advantage be?

 

I'm thinking +1 for x2, and +3 for unlimited. Too low? Keep in mind that with only -3 in limitations, you could cram an 80 AP power into a 20 pt pool! And with -7 in limitations....

 

FWIW, I'm asking as a GM setting up a fantasy campaign. I'm thinking of having other means available to keep the balance. For example, if every power requires a skill roll at -1/10 AP, and using different skills for different magical "colleges," it's going to be very expensive for a heroic level character to use a 100 point power unless he sinks a lot of points into skills.

 

What I'm trying to do is allow for very powerful effects, but only if heavily limited (to reduce real cost), and balanced mostly by skill roll penalties and use of LTE to power spells, plus all powers written up in advance with GM approval.

 

I'd post in the Fantasy Hero forum, but this is a general mechanical and balance question, and wanted to throw it out to a wider audience.

 

Thanks,

Mike

[Monolith]

Personally, I would think about going at it in reverse. Take a VPP and then put a Limitation on it to show that you can only have half the Pool in spells at one time. Thus:

 

100 point VPP. Cannot Have More Than 50 Points of Spells at one time: -1. Total Cost: 125 points.

 

To me this is within the concept of the rules, and there is not need to house rule it or create potentially unbalancing Advantages.

[Mr. Negative]

Re: VPP without AP limit

 

Originally posted by Alcamtar

For a VPP with x2 AP limit, what advantage would you apply to the control cost?

 

What about for a VPP with *no* AP limit? What should the advantage be?

 

 

FWIW, I'm asking as a GM setting up a fantasy campaign. I'm thinking of having other means available to keep the balance. For example, if every power requires a skill roll at -1/10 AP, and using different skills for different magical "colleges," it's going to be very expensive for a heroic level character to use a 100 point power unless he sinks a lot of points into skills.

 

What I'm trying to do is allow for very powerful effects, but only if heavily limited (to reduce real cost), and balanced mostly by skill roll penalties and use of LTE to power spells, plus all powers written up in advance with GM approval.

 

I'd post in the Fantasy Hero forum, but this is a general mechanical and balance question, and wanted to throw it out to a wider audience.

 

Thanks,

Mike

 

I would consider possibly putting a different rule on the Pool itself, rather than modifying it with an advantage. You might try limiting powers in the pool by their BASE points, instead of their active points. That is, limit them by their points before applying advantages or disadvantages. This may be too permissive, in that a 2d6 RKA against one person is a LOT less effective than an Area of Effect RKA (acid arrow vs. fireball). However, since that Advantaged RKA is still going to have to fit within the Real Points window, and suffer a higher Skill Roll Penalty, you may still be OK.

 

The other rule of thumb I would use is that "No Skill Roll required" is +1, and "No time required for Change" is +1, so perhaps "No Active Point Limit" is +1 too. Provided you are vigilant with allowing write-ups for the VPP, that shouldn't be unbalancing. However, remember that VPP limitations are, by their nature, sometimes less limiting than normal. If a character can choose from many different attack powers, each limited in some way, he is still, as a whole, much less limited than a character who has 1 such limited power.

 

If you do allow an Unlimited Active Point VPP, I would also restrict the amount of limitations the PC can take on any one power. This both serves to limit the potential scope of any power, and the number of potential powers running at any given time.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Re: VPP without AP limit

 

Originally posted by Alcamtar

For a VPP with x2 AP limit, what advantage would you apply to the control cost?

 

What about for a VPP with *no* AP limit? What should the advantage be?

 

Is there any official rule allowing this at all? I would expect not, and for good reason.

 

The second paragraph in the VPP description in HERO SYSTEM 5E states "No Power in a VPP can have an Active Point cost greater than the Pool cost."

 

Quite frankly, the whole idea sounds horridly broken.

[keithcurtis]

Originally posted by Monolith

Personally, I would think about going at it in reverse. Take a VPP and then put a Limitation on it to show that you can only have half the Pool in spells at one time. Thus:

 

100 point VPP. Cannot Have More Than 50 Points of Spells at one time: -1. Total Cost: 125 points.

 

To me this is within the concept of the rules, and there is not need to house rule it or create potentially unbalancing Advantages.

 

But doesn't this also break the rules? IIRC, you cannot place limitations on the base points in the pool, only the control cost. You're still stuck with having to spend that base 100 pts.

 

I say, whatever works for your campaign is the right way to go and hang the rule book.

 

Keith "Do as thou wilt shall be the whole of the law" Curtis

[Monolith]

Originally posted by keithcurtis

But doesn't this also break the rules? IIRC, you cannot place limitations on the base points in the pool, only the control cost. You're still stuck with having to spend that base 100 pts.

I did not put any Limitation on the base pool in my example. You have a 100 point VPP. The control cost is 50 points. I then put the -1 on the 50 points to leave 25 points. This then totals to 125 points for the power.

[Guest Keneton]

No matter what adavantage you propose, its gonna be an abuse. The idea is that with a VPP you can stack TONS of powers. Here is an example with a measly 50 point VPP.

 

50 points in growth x10 End, full only to turn on

50 points in DI (same as above)

10d6 Hand Attack

 

Now if your guy had a base 30 Strength he no throws 36 dice before pushing or haymakering!

 

VPP is already NASTY. There is no need to double active points and allow it to become obscene.

 

[Chris Goodwin]

Back in the day, I was the master of abusing the no-limit VPP. I'm not saying don't do it; there is rules precedent (3rd edition VPPs worked this way). It's just that you'll have guys who will manage to totally screw over your plots no matter how carefully you try to stop it with rules (10d6 Aid to Magic Skill? Sure, I can get that down to 5 Real Points. After that my skill will be high enough to throw that 150d6 RKA....). You'll be using the word "No" a lot, and at some point the players are going to get tired of hearing it, no matter how unreasonable their requests are.