Summon: Am I missing Something Here...?

[Lucius]

Re: Summon: Am I missing Something Here...?

 

"Betrayed by a Tent" - Hilarious!!!.

 

I just did a search of my own posts in which I used a Summon Power.

 

Want to see the Variable Babe Pool?

 

 

So someone asked "Where do gangsters get pool babes?" the women in bathing suits you always see hanging around the gangster's swimming pool.

 

I said "From a Variable Babe Pool of course!"

 

Variable Babe Pool, 50 base + 84 control cost, (92 Active Points); OAF Immobile (Swimming Pool; -2), Limited Special Effect Uncommon SFX (Babes; -1) Real Cost:60

 

Slots

 

Call Bimbo: Summon 20-point Babe, Weak-Willed -4 on EGO Rolls (+1/2), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (8 Active Points); Extra Time (20 Minutes, Only to Activate, -1 1/4), Arrives Under Own Power (-1/2)

 

Bevy of Bimbos: Summon 8 20-point Babe, Weak-Willed -4 on EGO Rolls (+1/2), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (38 Active Points); Extra Time (1 Hour, Only to Activate, -1 1/2), Arrives Under Own Power (-1/2)

 

Call Bitch: Summon 175-point Babe, Variable Special Effects (Limited Group of SFX; So many ways to be a bitch...; +1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Expanded Class of Beings (Limited Group: Bitches; So many kinds of bitches...; +1/2) (79 Active Points); No Conscious Control (Only Effects cannot be controlled; You don't pick the bitch; the bitch picks you; -1), Antagonistic Hostile (-1/2), Arrives Under Own Power (-1/2)

 

Pack of Bitches: Summon 4 125-point Babe, Variable Special Effects (Limited Group of SFX; So many ways to be a bitch...; +1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Expanded Class of Beings (Limited Group: Bitches; So many kinds of bitches...; +1/2) (79 Active Points); No Conscious Control (Only Effects cannot be controlled; You don't pick the bitch; the bitch picks you; -1), Antagonistic Hostile (-1/2), Arrives Under Own Power (-1/2)

 

Starlet, Stripper, or Strumpet: Summon 75-point Babe, Expanded Class of Beings (Very Limited Group; Also Escorts, Models, Nurses...; +1/4), Friendly (x2 as many tasks; +1/2), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (34 Active Points); Extra Time (1 Hour, Only to Activate, -1 1/2), Arrives Under Own Power (-1/2)

 

Troupe of Starlets, Strippers, and/or Strumpets: Summon 16 75-point Babe, Expanded Class of Beings (Very Limited Group; Also Escorts, Models, Nurses...; +1/4), Friendly (x2 as many tasks; +1/2), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (79 Active Points); Extra Time (1 Day, Only to Activate, -2), Arrives Under Own Power (-1/2)

 

Call Moll: Summon 90-point Babe, Trigger (Activating the Trigger requires a Zero Phase Action, Trigger requires a Turn or more to reset, Character does not control activation of personal Trigger, Trigger can expire (it has a time limit); This simply means that if the Moll has unused "tasks" and the character does not, or is not in a position to, give orders, the moll will execute some logical "task" unprompted. Examples of such spontaneous tasks: Arrange bail, call the lawyer, call an ambulance, shoot the hitman that's about to finish off the character, etc.; +1/4), Loyal (x4 as many tasks; +1), Time Limit (1 Week; +2 1/4) (81 Active Points); Extra Time (1 Day, Only to Activate, -2), 3 Charges which Recover every 1 Week (Loyal molls don't come along every day. Only about once a week.; -1 3/4), Arrives Under Own Power (-1/2)

 

Call Doll: Summon 80-point Babe, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Devoted (x2 as many tasks; +1), Time Limit (1 Month; +2 1/2) (80 Active Points); Extra Time (1 Hour, Only to Activate, -1 1/2), Arrives Under Own Power (-1/2)

 

Collection of Dolls: Summon 4 30-point Babe, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Devoted (x2 as many tasks; +1), Time Limit (1 Month; +2 1/2) (80 Active Points); Extra Time (1 Hour, Only to Activate, -1 1/2), Arrives Under Own Power (-1/2)

 

Attract Groupie: Summon 80-point Babe, Trigger (Activating the Trigger requires a Zero Phase Action, Trigger requires a Turn or more to reset, Character does not control activation of personal Trigger, Trigger can expire (it has a time limit); This simply means that if the Groupie has unused "tasks" and the character does not, or is not in a position to, give orders, the Groupie will execute some logical "task" unprompted. Examples of such spontaneous tasks: Arrange bail, call the lawyer, call an ambulance, shoot the hitman that's about to finish off the character, etc.; +1/4), Slavishly Devoted (x2 as many tasks; +1 1/4), Time Limit (1 Month; +2 1/2) (80 Active Points); Extra Time (1 Week, Only to Activate, -2 1/4), 2 Charges (Recovers Under Limited Circumstances (Must do something to enhance reputation or draw attention); -1 1/4), Arrives Under Own Power (-1/2)

 

Grope of Groupies: Summon 4 30-point Babe, Trigger (Activating the Trigger requires a Zero Phase Action, Trigger requires a Turn or more to reset, Character does not control activation of personal Trigger, Trigger can expire (it has a time limit); This simply means that if the Groupie has unused "tasks" and the character does not, or is not in a position to, give orders, the Groupie will execute some logical "task" unprompted. Examples of such spontaneous tasks: Arrange bail, call the lawyer, call an ambulance, shoot the hitman that's about to finish off the character, etc.; +1/4), Slavishly Devoted (x2 as many tasks; +1 1/4), Time Limit (1 Month; +2 1/2) (80 Active Points); Extra Time (1 Week, Only to Activate, -2 1/4), 2 Charges (Recovers Under Limited Circumstances (Must do something to enhance reputation or draw attention); -1 1/4), Arrives Under Own Power (-1/2)

 

Looks like the place is packed with babes: Touch Group, Normal Sight and Normal Hearing Images, +/-6 to PER Rolls, Persistent (+1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Uncontrolled (Turn it off by turning them off. They'll probably scatter when the fight starts anyway) (+1/2) (70 Active Points); Extra Time (20 Minutes, Only to Activate, -1 1/4), Set Effect (-1), Difficult to Alter simple changes take a Full Phase (Plus verbal instructions. "Why don't you girls all get in the pool?"; -1/2), Physical Manifestation (Because it IS packed with babes; -1/4)

 

Nice Scenery: Change Environment (-4 Characteristic Roll and all Skill Rolls based on Characteristic, Long-Lasting 1 Day, Varying Combat Effects), Personal Immunity (+1/4), Area Of Effect (8m Radius; +1/2) (70 Active Points); 3 Charges (-1 1/4), Limited Power Only effects justifiable based on babes (-1/2), Physical Manifestation (But who would want to hurt the babes?; -1/4), Variable Limitations (requires -1/2 worth of Limitations; Usually either Extra Time, or Conditional: must have some babes around already; -1/4)

Note:Filling it with babes is a nice way to change the environment. Possible Variable Combat Effects include: up to 5 STR Telekinesis, to represent casual use of babes to fetch drinks, make sandwhiches, give footrubs, and do other tasks requiring little strength or skill, or -5 to either PRE or EGO (whichever is higher) to do anything requiring focus or concentration. Note that setting it to -4 PRE rolls and PRE skills is very useful if one is negotiating something with a guest...

 

Not so dumb after all: Retrocognitive Clairsentience (Sight Group, Normal Smell And Normal Hearing), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (75 Active Points); No Conscious Control (Only Effects cannot be controlled; -1), Only Through The Senses Of Babes (-1/2), Limited Power Sometimes babes are confused, make something up, or are vague and uncertain (-1/2), Limited Range (-1/4)

Note: Sometimes a babe will notice something and even mention it - at the time or later

 

Don't be like that, babe, just listen to me...: Mind Control 7d6+1, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Cumulative (86 points; +3/4) (83 Active Points); Limited Class Of Minds Babes (-1), Extra Time (1 Turn (Post-Segment 12), Only to Activate, -3/4), Variable Limitations (requires -1 worth of Limitations; Normally some combination of: Skin Contact Required, Eye Contact Required, Expendable Focus (cash or gifts,) Requires Skill Roll: Charm, Literal Interpretation (especially for Bimbos); -1/2), Incantations (Fast Talking; -1/4)

Note: May need this one

 

Naked Advantage: Line Of Sight (+1/2) for up to 3 Active Points (1 Active Points)

Note: Seeing them naked is one of the great advantages of a Variable Babe Pool...

 

Orgy: Swinging 1m, Uncontrolled (Completely wild and out of control!; +1/2) (1 Active Points); Extra Time (5 Minutes, Only to Activate, To get the party started; -1), Required Multiple Users ([3-4] people; Sort of by definition....; -1/2)

Note: Oh wait, not THAT kind of swinging....

 

 

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Copyright Palindromedary Enterprises

[ghost-angel]

Re: Summon: Am I missing Something Here...?

 

First, a cap of 60-75 Active Points for a Standard Superheroic campaign is normal. Usually you're looking at both a Damage Class cap (12 is normal) and an Active Point Cap (again, the 60-75 point range is the most common).

 

Second, let's look at your original concern - 10 (you can actually get up to 16 'robots' with 40 points) 100 Point 'robots' with Speed 6 and a Gun.

 

Speed 6: 40 points

Gun: 20 points (we'll assume you got a standard 12D6 blaster down to 20 pts)

 

Now, we'd like to hit stuff...

OCV 5 - 10 Points

 

And maybe move a little...

DCV 5 - 10 Points

 

We're up to 80 points of 100 spent, and right now a solid hit from a single 12D6 blast takes it out completely (still only has 2PD, 10 Body)

PD 20 - 18 Points (that'll soak most of a 12D6 Blast)

 

That's 98 Points. We'll spend the last 2 on DEX so it can go before the little girl with the balloon.... DEX 11 - 2 points.

 

And... we're done. 100 Point "robot". Anyone with a flame thrower or a good right hook can take this guy down in a shot, it probably can't hit a superhero with any amount of reliability, it'll be good on mooks, who will be smarter, better tactically, and probably faster.

 

I'd totally allow those, it'll give my VIPER agents some target practice I guess... better than attracting the attention of Captain SmashMyFaceIn over there....

 

We'll call this Summon "A Distraction!"

[Christopher]

Re: Summon: Am I missing Something Here...?

 

"Betrayed by a Tent" - Hilarious!!!

 

Are superheroic adventures really capping out at 60 active points!?! I HAVE been gone a lone time. Side Question: If someone had a compound power of a 60 point EB and a 60 point flash, would that be considered a 120 active point power (and thus be over cap?).

The books (6E1) for Standart Superheroic (400 points) suggest a Power AP Cap of 80. It also sugests DC caps of 12-14.

 

I think that is an excellent tool to keep Stop-Sign powers under controll. Only so much gamebreaking you can do with 80 AP.

 

Also Slavishly Loyal only get's you so far. Among others, there is still a service limit:

EGO/1.

Services are used up at 1/Phase of the Creature in Combat and 1/Day.

 

As detailed in my Question in the Rules section' date=' it looks like I can connect a side effect of Flash and/or Darkness and/or Barrier to the Summoning (as a useful special effect).[/quote']

No, that is not what you asked. You asked:

"Can I link a (otherwise normally bought and paid for) Power to Summon" and the answer was Yes.

Side Effect, by the very definition, must be negative for you. You can not derive any positive game effect from a Side effect, ever. You can't get an area of Darkness (even if it affects you). You can get temporal, personal Blindness.

If the side effect you have in mind is in any way positive for you, you have to buy it as a seperate power, with Linked and maybe Unctonrolled (power always activates) if it has downsides for you.

 

Next' date=' if I understand it correctly, I could put my Summon power in a Multipower Slot. As far as I can see, if I made a second slot of Summon, I could now have TWO Summoned being at the same time. It seems a tricky, but I think it's permitted.[/quote']

It is permitted, under strikt GM observation.

I personally think the fact that you can just "Summon and Forget" that being is a big problem in combination with Frameworks. I personally think of a -1/4 Limitation for Summons "Power must stay Slotted while being is active".

[Lucius]

Re: Summon: Am I missing Something Here...?

 

Molly the Moll

Val Char Cost Roll Notes

8 STR -2 11- Lift 75.8kg; 1 1/2d6

11 DEX 2 11- OCV: 5/DCV: 5

13 CON 3 12-

8 BODY -2

13 INT 3 12- PER Roll 12-

10 EGO 0 11- ECV: 3 - 4

15 PRE 5 12- PRE Attack: 3d6

 

 

3/17 PD 1 Total: 3/17 PD (0/6 rPD)

3/9 ED 1 Total: 3/9 ED (0/6 rED)

3 SPD 10 Phases: 4, 8, 12

4 REC 0

20 END 0

18 STUN -1 Total Characteristic Cost: 38

 

Movement:

Running: 8m/16m

Leaping: 2m/4m

Swimming: 4m/8m

 

Cost Powers END

12 I haven't been killed yet: Combat Luck (6 PD/6 ED)

6 +8 PD (8 Active Points); Linked (I haven't been killed yet; Greater Power is Constant or in use most or all of the time; -1/4)

 

Talents

1 You got nothin' on me. I wanna lawyer.: Resistance (+1 to roll)

 

Skills

3 I can tell 'em what they want to hear: Charm 12-

2 I can be the getaway driver.: Combat Driving 10-

3 Every man has a price: Bribery 12-

3 I know the score: Streetwise 12-

2 Help! He's holding me hostage!: Acting 10-

2 Not the first bullet wound I've had to patch up.: Paramedics 10-

2 I got nailed for shoplifting once or twice: Sleight Of Hand 10-

3 Yeah, I'm a gun moll. WF: Small Arms, Blades

1 Take this, it's loaded: Weaponsmith (Firearms) 12- (2 Active Points); Limited Power Only to clear jams, rapid reload, or identify - can't actually make a gun (-1)

0 It's what I do: PS: Moll (Background Skill) 11-

3 Traveler - I know this town and I know who's who and what's what!

1 1) I know a good lawyer: CuK: Lawyers, bailbondsmen, and other people good to know in a jam (2 Active Points) 11-

2 2) I know my rights!: CuK: Police Procedures (3 Active Points) 12-

2 3) I know my way around: CK: Campaign City (3 Active Points) 12-

2 4) I know where to go if you're on the lam: AK: Hideouts, safe houses, good getaway routes (3 Active Points) 12-

2 5) I know who he works for, and you don't want to cross him: CuK: Crime and Criminals (3 Active Points) 12-

 

Total Powers & Skill Cost: 52

Total Cost: 90

 

90+ Disadvantages

20 "I'm YOUR girl now" Psychological Complication: Loyalty (Very Common; Strong)

5 "Yeah, they know my name now." Social Complication: Police Record Frequently, Minor, Not Limiting In Some Cultures

5 "They talked to me, but I didn't tell 'em a thing, Boss." Hunted: The Boss's enemies. Usually including the police. Infrequently (Mo Pow; NCI; Limited Geographical Area; Watching)

10 "Boss wouldn't like that." Hunted: "The Boss" Frequently (Mo Pow; Limited Geographical Area; PC has a Public ID or is otherwise very easy to find; Watching)

5 "Rotten Luck" Unluck: 1d6

5 "Yeah, I was just over the limit and the cop pulled me over and asked about you! He didn't just want to give me a ticket, he wants me to know he knows my car." Negative Reputation: Known Associate of _________, Frequently (Known Only To A Small Group; Law Enforcement and Criminals)

40 Base Points

 

Total Disadvantage Points: 90

 

Background/History: Molly is an example of a high end "babe" from a Variable Babe Pool, specifically, one that might appear for the "Call Moll" power.

 

Personality/Motivation: After the "honeymoon" (the set of Tasks calculated, plus a week of "hanging around") unless the moll is re-Summoned or other steps taken (Bribery or Persuasion rolls perhaps) her loyalty may wane or she may move out of the campaign. While unlikely to "sell out" (and even less likely to sing to the cops) she may move on to some other tough guy who impressed her, either with more lavish parties or with an even darker and more dangerous reputation. Or she may get into trouble on her own initiative and end up in jail, taking it on the lam with no forwarding address, or even get killed. If the character gets really attached to a moll, there's always the option of buying her as a Follower.

 

Quote: Whatever you say, boss.

 

Powers/Tactics: While designed to hopefully survive a firefight, Molly is probably not a frontline enforcer. She can be a back up getaway driver, a distraction, or one more gun on your side in a fight. With 15 pts in Streetwise and Knowledge Skills, she may make a useful advisor.

 

Campaign Use: Aside from being a Summoned Babe, this character sheet could be used for a more permanent moll for crime bosses ranging from a prohibition era bootlegger to a 21st century drug lord, or even the girlfriend of certain kinds of villains in a superhero game.

 

Appearance: Molls are not necessarily chosen for looks (they have other things to contribute) but any given crime lord's moll is probably at least moderately attractive by whatever his personal standards are.

 

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Palindromedary Enterprises. Moll is for entertainment purposes only. Palindromedary Enterprises does not condone violence, recreational use of controlled substances, loud partying, casual or high risk sexual behavior or any other aspects of a criminal lifestyle.

[sporeworld]

Re: Summon: Am I missing Something Here...?

 

No, that is not what you asked. You asked:

"Can I link a (otherwise normally bought and paid for) Power to Summon" and the answer was Yes.

Side Effect, by the very definition, must be negative for you. You can not derive any positive game effect from a Side effect, ever. You can't get an area of Darkness (even if it affects you). You can get temporal, personal Blindness.

If the side effect you have in mind is in any way positive for you, you have to buy it as a separate power, with Linked and maybe Uncontrolled (power always activates) if it has downsides for you.

.

 

TO clarify, here's what I think it looks like when purchased (I think "Compound Power" was the thing I was trying to describe) :

COMPOUND POWER: Robot Summoning Pellets: Throw to the ground to activate.

1. SUMMON: (1) 200 Active Point Robot, Slavishly Devoted (+1). 80 points.

2. DARKNESS: 8m, 40 points.

3. BARRIER: 80 points (I honestly have never used Barrier, so I need to research it).

 

It really is a 200 point action if it all goes off at once. More likely, I'd trade the BARRIER for an Area Effect Explosion - maybe low damage or all stun, but increased KnockBack for effect.

 

The Robot, as you mentioned, would be pretty feeble. But if my opponent and I are the same speed, he just needs to be sturdy enough to last 2 phases, and eventually we'll outnumber the opponent. Area Effect attacks from the Droids, or stackable Entangles would be more tactical. Or maybe the 1st instance of the power summons a more durable bot - one that is built specifically to take a few punches (my opponent wouldn't know this at first).

 

As for communicating with them, in this instance, I figured I do it via Radio Broadcast - probably built as a Focus (Helmet), unless the Summoner or some kind of bot as well (maybe a Mind Scan / Telepathy thing).

[sporeworld]

Re: Summon: Am I missing Something Here...?

 

Molly the Moll

.

 

Very funny. Makes me want to play a pimp!

[Christopher]

Re: Summon: Am I missing Something Here...?

 

TO clarify, here's what I think it looks like when purchased (I think "Compound Power" was the thing I was trying to describe) :

COMPOUND POWER: Robot Summoning Pellets: Throw to the ground to activate.

1. SUMMON: (1) 200 Active Point Robot, Slavishly Devoted (+1). 80 points.

2. DARKNESS: 8m, 40 points.

3. BARRIER: 80 points (I honestly have never used Barrier, so I need to research it).

You seem to forget something very important:

You have to pay for this power. And once you spend 200 points on this (50% of a Superheroic Budget), there is no way you can still stand up to a foe who didn't spend that much on a single trick.

He propably knocks you K.O. the first phase after you summoned them (if not even before you ever get there) and has the robot shredded before it has completely recovered and is able to act once.

 

You won't have equal speed and combat ability to him, because you cannot afford equal combat ability with that power.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Summon: Am I missing Something Here...?

 

To clarify, the Summon you describe above Summons one Robot. While that Robot is here, you cannot Summon another to outnumber the opponent. The Robot is also in your Darkness, and likely behind your Barrier, since Summon has no range. Swapping for the Explosion, you and the robot would both take damage.

 

You also just spent 20 END, so I suspect you won't be doing that trick very often.

 

I would say yes, you are missing something. You are reading the power in isolation, rather than building a character with it and seeing how it works in practice.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Summon: Am I missing Something Here...?

 

"Betrayed by a Tent" - Hilarious!!!

 

Are superheroic adventures really capping out at 60 active points!?! I HAVE been gone a lone time. Side Question: If someone had a compound power of a 60 point EB and a 60 point flash, would that be considered a 120 active point power (and thus be over cap?).

 

So, for 60 Active points, I can Summon a robot that is Slavishly loyal and built on 150 Active points. With the delay in summoning and a cap of one being summoned, it seems reasonable. Now for the trouble-making (I'm trying to be preemptive).

 

As detailed in my Question in the Rules section, it looks like I can connect a side effect of Flash and/or Darkness and/or Barrier to the Summoning (as a useful special effect).

 

Next, if I understand it correctly, I could put my Summon power in a Multipower Slot. As far as I can see, if I made a second slot of Summon, I could now have TWO Summoned being at the same time. It seems a tricky, but I think it's permitted.

 

Phase 1 - Summon. Big burst of smoke and light heralds the arrival of my droid, and I'm surrounded by a huge Barrier.

Phase 2 - Droid is stunned, but I'm not. I Summon slot #2. (and, depending on how I bought it, another round of smoke and flashes).

Phase 3 - Droid #1 is active. Droid #2 is stunned. I Summon slot #3.

 

Assuming all this were legal, it seems OK. Still strikes me as unbalanced though. I hate to waste a night of everyone's time play testing this beast, if we can chat it out here first.

 

Legal, but cheeseball.

 

Also - there's nothing saying you have to Summon your maximum every time. If you have a x4 Summon, you can spend 4 Phases Summoning one at a time...

[sporeworld]

Re: Summon: Am I missing Something Here...?

 

Yeah - I'm not trying to be cheeseball - as a GM I can just BE cheeseball. I'm trying to pre-empt my players with well thought out arguments. I know them, and they ARE cheeseballs! :-)

 

To Christopher, a single 200 point, Slavishly Devoted Robot, bought down to 0 End (tossing a pellet) is only a 100 point power (again, unless I'm missing something). Plenty left to spend on SPD and Defenses. A decent ForceField (I know.. "Resistant Def or whatever) should get him through the first 12th Phase actions. And/or enough DEX to go early. Truly cheesy would be a move to Desolid, and summon them in that state (I know there are modifiers Affects Physical World, etc).

 

Also, there's no reason to think the character would be played in some kind of PvP 1on1 arena. It's meant to be used in an adventure, with allies and obstacles, etc. We've also been playing very low point adventures so far, which is another reason I'm looking at how tipsy this power appears to be.

 

I think the players will want to design an Elemental Control (I know, that's old school language) kind of approach, and have several very specialized robots. A little Mars Rover, a Bomb Removal Bot, Restrainer Bots, etc. A tiny robot tracker that climbs onto the getaway car, a pack mule, and so on. So plenty of non-combat usages. I've never looked at the Vehicle Building aspects of the game, but I see no reason someone couldn't summon a Getaway Bot, and just ride away (or have it pick him up).

 

A 1/4 Persistent modifier (I think) would keep the bots on mission, if needed (assuming they got their commands in time). Any reason I couldn't -0 modify it to "Take Orders From Teammates"? As in "Slavishly Loyal To Team"?

 

The number of tasks topic seems a little trickier. With a Slavishly Devoted robot, and a 10 ego, it looks like I can command it to do 10 things. Is that 10 phases of combat? Or 10 independent instructions? Would "Clean Up This House" be ONE task?

 

And thanks for all the responses so far.

[sporeworld]

Re: Summon: Am I missing Something Here...?

 

Legal, but cheeseball.

 

Also - there's nothing saying you have to Summon your maximum every time. If you have a x4 Summon, you can spend 4 Phases Summoning one at a time...

 

Right. Presumably at some modified endurance cost?

 

To anyone who plays Starcraft 2, we were talking about creating the Brood Lords power to attack with an "egg" that does damage, and then pops out 2 little Broodlings. A really fun kind of Compound Power with all sorts of fun variations, when attached to different attacks (they'd need the Range modifier).

1. A webball that bursts into a minor Entangle, but pops out 2 little spinners who, upon waking, will start adding more and more entangles until you're all bundled up. The more I throw, the more spinners at to the effect.

2. A Grenade that blows up, and then the shrapenel reforms into tiny metal soldiers, that shoot you with 1/2d6 Killing Attacks.

3. A Mind Blast attack that unleashes several poltergeists to swirl around and continue the mental barrage.

4. A Telekinetic Grab (Animated Hand) that bursts from the ground, along with several more, "Walking Rock Hands" that try to further subdue to opponent.

5. A Drain Attack that (Special Effect) uses that power to create little pint-size versions of me, who attack and either further drain, or run back and return the stolen power to me (Aid) - which would be pretty funny to watch.

[Christopher]

Re: Summon: Am I missing Something Here...?

 

To Christopher' date=' a single 200 point, Slavishly Devoted Robot, bought down to 0 End (tossing a pellet) is only a 100 point power (again, unless I'm missing something). Plenty left to spend on SPD and Defenses. A decent ForceField (I know.. "Resistant Def or whatever) should get him through the first 12th Phase actions. And/or enough DEX to go early. Truly cheesy would be a move to Desolid, and summon them in that state (I know there are modifiers Affects Physical World, etc).[/quote']

Whatever this 200 point robot can do (it will be less than the average Viper Agent!), pales in comparsion to what a Character can do with 100 more points.

400+200 Robot vs 500 point Superhero or 300+200 vs. 400 point Superhero. My bet's are still on the guy without Robot.

 

I think the players will want to design an Elemental Control (I know, that's old school language) kind of approach, and have several very specialized robots. A little Mars Rover, a Bomb Removal Bot, Restrainer Bots, etc. A tiny robot tracker that climbs onto the getaway car, a pack mule, and so on. So plenty of non-combat usages. I've never looked at the Vehicle Building aspects of the game, but I see no reason someone couldn't summon a Getaway Bot, and just ride away (or have it pick him up).

Also to have multiple variabel Robots you need "Expanded Class of beings". For a set of different Droids, it should be +1/2 too +1 (where I would put the lsit you gave). Droids are much more versatile than animals.

And even then you can only have one active at a time.

 

A 1/4 Persistent modifier (I think) would keep the bots on mission, if needed (assuming they got their commands in time). Any reason I couldn't -0 modify it to "Take Orders From Teammates"? As in "Slavishly Loyal To Team"?

 

The number of tasks topic seems a little trickier. With a Slavishly Devoted robot, and a 10 ego, it looks like I can command it to do 10 things. Is that 10 phases of combat? Or 10 independent instructions? Would "Clean Up This House" be ONE task?

 

And thanks for all the responses so far.

You don't use Persistent with Summon. Summon (by definition) is "Instant with Lasting Effect" (a "better" form of persistent) - like Barrier or most mental powers. The task system is the only thing limiting it's durability.

 

Every single work-order coutns as one Service (keep in mind that without Computer the number of possible tasks is heavily limited).

Combat counts as one Service/Phase of the Summon.

Continous Acitvities (guard, keep house clean) counts as 1 Service/Day. If combat erupts, services go down at that rate instead.

[Christopher]

Re: Summon: Am I missing Something Here...?

 

Right. Presumably at some modified endurance cost?

 

To anyone who plays Starcraft 2, we were talking about creating the Brood Lords power to attack with an "egg" that does damage, and then pops out 2 little Broodlings. A really fun kind of Compound Power with all sorts of fun variations, when attached to different attacks (they'd need the Range modifier).

1. A webball that bursts into a minor Entangle, but pops out 2 little spinners who, upon waking, will start adding more and more entangles until you're all bundled up. The more I throw, the more spinners at to the effect.

2. A Grenade that blows up, and then the shrapenel reforms into tiny metal soldiers, that shoot you with 1/2d6 Killing Attacks.

3. A Mind Blast attack that unleashes several poltergeists to swirl around and continue the mental barrage.

4. A Telekinetic Grab (Animated Hand) that bursts from the ground, along with several more, "Walking Rock Hands" that try to further subdue to opponent.

5. A Drain Attack that (Special Effect) uses that power to create little pint-size versions of me, who attack and either further drain, or run back and return the stolen power to me (Aid) - which would be pretty funny to watch.

All of them need enough Mutilpiers to have more than one active at a time.

All of them have to be bough with Ranged/LOS to spawn where the target is.

All of them have to be bought outside of a Multipower to work with the attack. Linked is about the only Limitation. The rest is 1:1 Character Points, the rarest resource in the Game.

All of them will suffer from being easily squishable. One can perhaps squat them like flies. Propably one normal Attack Spread out to affect 1m Radius will be enough to get them off.

[sporeworld]

Re: Summon: Am I missing Something Here...?

 

All of them will suffer from being easily squishable. One can perhaps squat them like flies. Propably one normal Attack Spread out to affect 1m Radius will be enough to get them off.

 

Yeah - I'm thinking combat would be a series of throw/summon vs. Squish/Squish. Subsequent throws might just replenish the horde. I'm assuming that a 200 point Summoned character in an 80point capped game can survive a standard spread or area effect attack. And even if they can't, it's roughly equal to throwing a feeble entangle - since the opponent is investing a full attack action to destroy/repel/dispel them. If the Summoner has a higher Spd (and the opponent just keeps doing the same thing), he'll eventually be overwhelmed (again, this isn't pvp, so there are tons of variables).

 

It seems to be that a characters 80 attack power is about par with an 80 point summoning power, as we're describing it. But no where NEAR as "powerful" (the ability to do or affect anything in any way) when the multipliers are allowed - especially with "Slavishly Loyal". A 200 point, slavishly loyal being with a 4x multiplier has an 80 Character Point value, but it terrifying in it's potential. I think...

[sporeworld]

Re: Summon: Am I missing Something Here...?

 

Whatever this 200 point robot can do (it will be less than the average Viper Agent!),

 

Also to have multiple variabel Robots you need "Expanded Class of beings". For a set of different Droids, it should be +1/2 too +1 (where I would put the list you gave). Droids are much more versatile than animals.

And even then you can only have one active at a time.

.

 

Yeah. I'm saying each type of bot is bought as a separate power, with a Unified modifier. I'm also thinking that they would probably be bought on charges, at least in the "pellet" example.

 

In any case, I'm not arguing that a guy with this power is a great fighter. Just that it SEEMS unbalanced at the price. Summoning 16 BoostBots would massively alter any combat, and the opponents might find that destroying the Boost bots becomes more important than defeating the Heroes, since no one stays down, or runs out of END, and so on. Also, there's value in sending Viper agents to wear out or soften up. Blowing END on Area Effect attacks is potentially draining. Imagine if their primary weapon was a CON or REC drain.

 

And GetAwayBots would be a really cheap way of giving everyone on the team Flight Usable On Others. Defender Bots than spreadout and cast their ForceField_Usable-On-Others power could be amping up team DEF a decent amount for relatively low cost (and, that's only 1 task).

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Summon: Am I missing Something Here...?

 

Yeah - I'm thinking combat would be a series of throw/summon vs. Squish/Squish. Subsequent throws might just replenish the horde. I'm assuming that a 200 point Summoned character in an 80point capped game can survive a standard spread or area effect attack. And even if they can't, it's roughly equal to throwing a feeble entangle - since the opponent is investing a full attack action to destroy/repel/dispel them. If the Summoner has a higher Spd (and the opponent just keeps doing the same thing), he'll eventually be overwhelmed (again, this isn't pvp, so there are tons of variables).

 

It seems to be that a characters 80 attack power is about par with an 80 point summoning power, as we're describing it. But no where NEAR as "powerful" (the ability to do or affect anything in any way) when the multipliers are allowed - especially with "Slavishly Loyal". A 200 point, slavishly loyal being with a 4x multiplier has an 80 Character Point value, but it terrifying in it's potential. I think...

 

OK, that's 40 points for 200 point 'bot, plus 10 for 4x multiplier = 50 base cost. You want to throw them, so that's Range (+1/2). 0 END is another +1/2, and Slavish Loyalty is +1. That's 150 points (120 if unified with something else - but what else?)

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Summon: Am I missing Something Here...?

 

To Christopher' date=' a single 200 point, Slavishly Devoted Robot, bought down to 0 End (tossing a pellet) is only a 100 point power (again, unless I'm missing something). Plenty left to spend on SPD and Defenses. A decent ForceField (I know.. "Resistant Def or whatever) should get him through the first 12th Phase actions. And/or enough DEX to go early. Truly cheesy would be a move to Desolid, and summon them in that state (I know there are modifiers Affects Physical World, etc). [/quote']

 

I agree with Christopher that 100 points is a big chunk of the budget. As well, your 200 point Robot needs enough OCV to hit with some reliability, movement (especially as it is summoned only adjacent to the summoner - you did not pay for Range), its attack, robot powers (surely a ROBOT does not need to breathe or eat or sleep, won't age, is immune to a number of conditions that are harmful to humans, etc.), maybe some Automaton powers, and enough defenses to last out two phases (the one it's summoned on and the one it recovers from being Stunned on) to get an action.

 

Show us the actual overpowered build and let's see how The Summoner does pitted against a typical Champions foe.

 

A 1/4 Persistent modifier (I think) would keep the bots on mission' date=' if needed (assuming they got their commands in time). Any reason I couldn't -0 modify it to "Take Orders From Teammates"? As in "Slavishly Loyal To Team"?[/quote']

 

+1/4 will double the number of tasks, not make them unlimited. But you need to be able to communicate with them - now your robot and/or character needs to spend points to permit this. It seems like extra people who can give it orders should carry a cost, whether a Task ("Also obey this guy" or "follow orders from anyone wearing a yellow hat") or an adder (maybe 5 points for one extra commander +5 for each doubling of that number).

 

The number of tasks topic seems a little trickier. With a Slavishly Devoted robot' date=' and a 10 ego, it looks like I can command it to do 10 things. Is that 10 phases of combat? Or 10 independent instructions? Would "Clean Up This House" be ONE task?[/quote']

 

6e V1 p 289 is Christopher's info source.

 

Yeah. I'm saying each type of bot is bought as a separate power' date=' with a Unified modifier. I'm also thinking that they would probably be bought on charges, at least in the "pellet" example. [/quote']

 

OK, so three Bots cost 240 points (100/1.25 = 80 x 3). A Multipower would be more efficient, but still carries a cost. The advantage to have different types of 'bots is more flexible. I'd allow +1/2 if the robots have enough common features (and/or things they can't do) to justify it. "They can do anything" screams "you can Summon anything or nearly so - that's a +1".

 

Keep in mind that Unified Power basically demands that people with negative adjustment powers that impact this Summoning show up on occasion.

 

In any case' date=' I'm not arguing that a guy with this power is a great fighter. Just that it SEEMS unbalanced at the price. Summoning 16 BoostBots would massively alter any combat, and the opponents might find that destroying the Boost bots becomes more important than defeating the Heroes, since no one stays down, or runs out of END, and so on. Also, there's value in sending Viper agents to wear out or soften up. Blowing END on Area Effect attacks is potentially draining. Imagine if their primary weapon was a CON or REC drain.[/quote']

 

I don't think you're persuading us, or we're persuading you. Show us a build and prove us wrong.

 

And GetAwayBots would be a really cheap way of giving everyone on the team Flight Usable On Others. Defender Bots than spreadout and cast their ForceField_Usable-On-Others power could be amping up team DEF a decent amount for relatively low cost (and' date=' that's only 1 task).[/quote']

 

By all means, use a fragile robot to carry your non-flyers 100 meters into the air! And remember that it costs more to summon one Bot per teammate.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Summon: Am I missing Something Here...?

 

Unless you start providing some actual detailed Summoned Creatures - not just "100 points of Summon" - then I can no longer help you talk your way around in circles. It's getting pointless.

 

If the 100 Point robot can be destroyed with one hit in a Phase - I don't care how many you have, they aren't going to be much more than a speed bump, assuming they even get a Phase to act.

 

Anyway, have fun throwing more hypotheticals at us if you must. I'm done saying "As the GM - SAY NO" or "great, but it'll suck anyway." in variations.

 

I can do all KINDS of damage to game with 100 points, and I won't need a Stop sign power to do it. So picking out this one mechanic as "OMG! Things will break!" is a silly exercise in trying to out-think yourself and/or your players.

[sporeworld]

Re: Summon: Am I missing Something Here...?

 

OK - it wasn't my intention to invoke negative reactions like this - I'm way too new to the forum for that.

 

I'll take your answers and do some play testing. I've made sample bots already, if you want me to post them, I will. Again, thanks for the input, sorry if I've caused grief.

 

Peace!

[ghost-angel]

Re: Summon: Am I missing Something Here...?

 

OK - it wasn't my intention to invoke negative reactions like this - I'm way too new to the forum for that.

 

I'll take your answers and do some play testing. I've made sample bots already, if you want me to post them, I will. Again, thanks for the input, sorry if I've caused grief.

 

Peace!

 

No worries - the one thing you really really need to keep in mind with Hero is Context.

 

A power build might be underpowered in one game, fine in another, and an absolutely overpowered monster in a third.

 

No grief, but we aren't going assuage any worries with vagaries of "but a 200 point Summon could..." - Could what? Is this a Standard Superhero Game? Cosmic? What's the genre style? Meta-Genres invoked? What's the actual build?

 

All of those questions put context to a power. Without them it's just numbers with no meaning.

[Christopher]

Re: Summon: Am I missing Something Here...?

 

In any case' date=' I'm not arguing that a guy with this power is a great fighter. Just that it SEEMS unbalanced at the price. Summoning 16 BoostBots would massively alter any combat, and the opponents might find that destroying the Boost bots becomes more important than defeating the Heroes, since no one stays down, or runs out of END, and so on.[/quote']

You forget maximum Effect for positive Adjustment Powers.

20 bots with a 3d6 AID each, can't togehter aid more than 18 Character Points (halved because END is defensive Characteristic). And they can't replenish it faster than it fades.

 

And GetAwayBots would be a really cheap way of giving everyone on the team Flight Usable On Others. Defender Bots than spreadout and cast their ForceField_Usable-On-Others power could be amping up team DEF a decent amount for relatively low cost (and' date=' that's only 1 task).[/quote']

It's propably cheaper to just buy Flight, UOO/Usable Simulataniously.

 

I realised that champions 6E does have some 100 point mook writeups:

The Soldier:

Highest Characteristics 13.

OCV/DCV 4

SPD 3

10 PD/ED (6 on activation roll)

26 STUN

6 DC Attack

 

Pratically everyone can just ignore such a soldier. In fact only the Martial Artist is even in the area where he could take damage from that attack, and this guy won't hit him if the MA's DCV is halved.

When stunned his DCV is less than what you have to roll to hit an area.

On the attack most characters must be carefull not to do Body damage with normal Damage Attacks.

 

There are several 175 point builds - Moleman, Alien Ivnader, Agent (I was wrong that they are abuilt on 275, the are built on 175):

Characteristics top out around 15

OCV 5

SPD 3

8-10 PD/ED

30 STUN

8-10 DC

 

Superheroes actually have to consider them a Threat. But as a summons, they still fail horribly because of their low SPD. Again character has to pull their punches to not break bones.

 

When you try those thigns as robot, you pay a premium for "no Stun" Power and the fact that every defense has it's costs trippeled (inlcuding DCV). Low point Robots fail.

[Lucius]

Re: Summon: Am I missing Something Here...?

 

It is not mandatory for a robot to have Takes No STUN.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Automated palindromedary

[bneumeier]

Re: Summon: Am I missing Something Here...?

 

Yeah - I'm not trying to be cheeseball - as a GM I can just BE cheeseball. I'm trying to pre-empt my players with well thought out arguments. I know them, and they ARE cheeseballs! :-)

 

To Christopher, a single 200 point, Slavishly Devoted Robot, bought down to 0 End (tossing a pellet) is only a 100 point power (again, unless I'm missing something)....

 

It seems as though you may be somewhat discounting some parts of the power description:

 

"The GM may refuse to allow a character to Summon a being the GM considers too powerful or potentially unbalancing." and "The GM must approve all Summon powers and Summoned beings after he examines them for campaign suitability and balance." -- This is the overarching point that makes Summoning not an unbalancing power: it's the responsibility of the GM to say "nope, sorry, that's cheeseball. If you want a slavishly devoted robot, you can build it on up to 50 points, and you can only have a maximum of four of them."

 

"Characters should not be allowed to Summon hordes of powerful, easily-controlled creatures unless there are equally powerful restrictions on this ability." -- directly addressing the "I can raise dozens of powerful zombies in just moments!" problem.

 

"If the GM doesn't want to spend the time and effort to build a Summoned being..." -- the implication, which I think is clearly stated in an earlier edition of the rules (maybe 4th?), is that the players don't get to design the Summoned beings. That is something that the GM does. So a good defense against a cheeseball Summoning power is to not build Summoned beings that fit the cheeseball profile.

 

So my advice, based on what you've said about how unbalancing Summoning is likely to be in your campaign, is to simply ratchet up the diligence with which you apply the "examines them for campaign suitability and balance" clause, and simply not allow Summoning powers unless you are entirely comfortable with them.

 

The same thing applies (as others have probably already observed) to Multiform, Duplication, VPPs, and really everything else in the rulebook. If you're not comfortable that a particular power mechanic will fit in well with the kind of campaign you have in mind, disallow it.

 

The number of tasks topic seems a little trickier. With a Slavishly Devoted robot, and a 10 ego, it looks like I can command it to do 10 things. Is that 10 phases of combat? Or 10 independent instructions? Would "Clean Up This House" be ONE task?

That's also at the discretion of the GM. The only rule is "The GM decides what constitutes a 'task'." There is also a guidleline on 6E1 289: "For combat, each Phase of fighting usually equals one task. For ordinary house-hold chores, carrying loads, or pulling wagons, each day of service normally qualifies as one task." But the only rule is: "The GM decides what constitutes a 'task'."

 

Hope this helps!

[sporeworld]

Re: Summon: Am I missing Something Here...?

 

 

"If the GM doesn't want to spend the time and effort to build a Summoned being..." -- the implication, which I think is clearly stated in an earlier edition of the rules (maybe 4th?), is that the players don't get to design the Summoned beings. That is something that the GM does. So a good defense against a cheeseball Summoning power is to not build Summoned beings that fit the cheeseball profile.

 

Hope this helps!

 

Yup! That's THE most compelling argument I've seen. All my issues dry up if the Summoner KNOWS they don't get to build the creature. Especially if they're already arguing for a power I don't want them to use (I've already said "no" to almost every Stop Sign power, and a lot of the ! ones).

 

Thanks!

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Summon: Am I missing Something Here...?

 

Adjustment powers have some very nebulous aspects, and a host of bizarre, and sometimes conflicting "rules questions".

 

You forget maximum Effect for positive Adjustment Powers.

20 bots with a 3d6 AID each, can't togehter aid more than 18 Character Points (halved because END is defensive Characteristic). And they can't replenish it faster than it fades.

 

I can't find one, but I thought there was a question on multiple Aid's in the past. I'm not sure the grand total is limited, rather than each user getting his own maximum. Healing is much clearer that the cap is per target, not per healer. In any case, even if Aid from different characters would normally stack, this seems like a perfectly reasonable limitation for a bunch of identical Aid powers.

 

It's propably cheaper to just buy Flight' date=' UOO/Usable Simulataniously.[/quote']

 

There are differences. The 'bot uses its own actions for movement. But I suspect working the numbers would show the movement is much less expensive with the Flight UOO power. This alludes to another issue this thread hasn't discussed. There's nothing wrong with buying Flight, UOO with the special effect of Summoned FlightBots. Summoning can be the SFX for a lot of powers, rather than being the mechanical Summon power.

 

When you try those thigns as robot' date=' you pay a premium for "no Stun" Power and the fact that every defense has it's costs trippeled ([b']inlcuding DCV[/b]). Low point Robots fail.

 

OK, I looked that one up and you're right. Many of the rulings on "defenses" for "Takes no STUN" are, unfortunately, among the stupidest in the game. The whole point of "defenses divided by three" is that attacks do way less BOD than STUN, so a character with typical Supers defenses will rarely or never take BOD. No big deal - except for a target that can only be taken out by BOD damage.

 

With that in mind, I would apply the triple cost only to defenses that are more effective against BOD than STUN. So PD, ED, rDEF - sure.

 

Power DEF? No - BOD and STUN can already be drained at the same rate. Damage Reduction? No - 50% is still 50%, whether or not you can take STUN. Damage negation? No - it already blocks less BOD than STUN. And DCV - NFW - being missed is no better or worse a defense against STUN or BOD.

 

If the costs of these "defenses" are tripled, forget them. Spend that 30 points you were going to use on +2 DCV to bump your PD and ED by 5 each instead. 30 points to reduce all Physical and Energy attacks by 1 DC? +3 rPD and +3 rED costs 27, and will be vastly more effective.

 

No question this specifically reverses RAW - but if RAW is stupid (and this one is), it should be reversed.