Question: Does TK Grab function like STR Grabs?

[sporeworld]

My question is about how multiple people with TK affect an opposing foe?

 

For purposes of restraint, as far as I can tell, it would function similar to a STR based Grab. So, 2, 10 or 100 normals couldn't restrain a brick with, say a 40 STR (provided he was strong enough to lift them off the ground). The STR doesn't stack.

 

That about right...?

 

The Combat & Martial Maneuver Book reads:

(Where A & C are grabbing

"Alternately, the GM can add A’s and C’s lifting capacities together to determine their “group STR,” as described on 6E1 41, and B has to break free from that."

Would that seem more or less applicable to TK?

 

The Combat & Martial Maneuver Book also says:

"If B only wants to free the part of his body held by one of his captors, he has to make his STR Roll versus that person’s STR, but if he succeeds he only frees that part of his body."

The inverse of that would be multiple TK grabs to specific limbs (might need the Fine Manipulation adder?). This could force the held character to make several rolls to fully escape. Since TK has no action/reaction, the grabbed character couldn't really THROW the grabber away, so 4 or 5 people making their attack rolls could conceivably hold a person indefinitely, or more likely just tire them out.

 

Would that grabbed character in this case have to burn END for EACH limb he attempts to free, or just once per phase, no matter how many people struggle against him?

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Question: Does TK Grab function like STR Grabs?

 

Would that grabbed character in this case have to burn END for EACH limb he attempts to free' date=' or just once per phase, no matter how many people struggle against him?[/quote']

Generally you only spend END once a phase for using STR unless it's for multiple attacks.

[Rholio2]

Re: Question: Does TK Grab function like STR Grabs?

 

I've always used it as the same at regular STR.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Question: Does TK Grab function like STR Grabs?

 

In most ways a TK Grab is the same as a STR Grab. I think the major difference is that the Grabber doesn't have the DCV penalty.

[sporeworld]

Re: Question: Does TK Grab function like STR Grabs?

 

There seems to be a disconnect here with the multi-person grab. If 4 people hold down one guy (all of equal STR), they SHOULD hold him (since they have 4x the odds of getting the best roll). But the END expense is tremendous - all four exerting full STR/END - 4 times the effort for minimal results.

 

Looking at it a different way:

 

Four guys are holding up a sheet of... indestructonium (something unbreakable). You could pile MORE weight on the sheet than any ONE man could hold by themselves. So, if those same four guys took that same sheet and used it to force some guy against a wall. Surely he'd need to beat more than a normal man's strength to get free, right? He'd need to beat some percentage of them all, I suspect.

 

Or, if those same people just SAT on the sheet, with the victim beneath it. He'd have to lift all four of their weight, right?

 

So, if 4 guys with TK joined forces to grab a sheet pin a guy against a wall, wouldn't it play out differently...? Are there already rules to cover this?

[Querysphinx]

Re: Question: Does TK Grab function like STR Grabs?

 

As a GM, I'd never want to stop the action in my game to figure out he total additive lift capacity of a whole bunch of assailants and then reverse engineer that to get a mass push strength. If, however, all the pushers happen to have the same STR then you can figure it quite simply. Each 2x the number of pusher/lifters = +5 STR. So if normal guy has a STR of 8 and his buddy helps him then it's 13 STR, and if two more friends join in it gets up to 18 and so on.

[Christopher]

Re: Question: Does TK Grab function like STR Grabs?

 

In most ways a TK Grab is the same as a STR Grab. I think the major difference is that the Grabber doesn't have the DCV penalty.

Other advantages are:

Unlimited number of Hand-pairs (you can have multiple "Instances" of TK running).

You don't suffer Damage Shields.

You are out of your targets HTH-Reach

You can lift the target into the air without having to move yourself.

 

The big downsides:

Active Point and endurance inefficiency. You need 30 AP/3 END for ever 20 STR.

AP caps usually mean you can have less TK-STR than normal STR.

 

There seems to be a disconnect here with the multi-person grab. If 4 people hold down one guy (all of equal STR), they SHOULD hold him (since they have 4x the odds of getting the best roll). But the END expense is tremendous - all four exerting full STR/END - 4 times the effort for minimal results.

 

Looking at it a different way:

 

Four guys are holding up a sheet of... indestructonium (something unbreakable). You could pile MORE weight on the sheet than any ONE man could hold by themselves. So, if those same four guys took that same sheet and used it to force some guy against a wall. Surely he'd need to beat more than a normal man's strength to get free, right? He'd need to beat some percentage of them all, I suspect.

 

Or, if those same people just SAT on the sheet, with the victim beneath it. He'd have to lift all four of their weight, right?

 

So, if 4 guys with TK joined forces to grab a sheet pin a guy against a wall, wouldn't it play out differently...? Are there already rules to cover this?

Tehre is a difference:

The weight on the sheet is just sitting there. It isn't rying to escape.

 

On the other hand, a 100 kg, 10 STR normal can eqaually easily be thrown off by 40 STR birck if he is alone or in a dozen.

What I could see is each of the 4 grabbing one leg/arm, thus the defender has to work against the -5 STR "one arm" penalty to get out of the first grab (he can use both hands from then on) and has to break a total of 4 Grabs.

I could also see them piling on top of the hero, using only thier combined weight to hold him down. But there are only so many people that can grab one person at a time.

[sporeworld]

Re: Question: Does TK Grab function like STR Grabs?

 

Yeah - that makes sense. I read that in the Combat guide. Everyone grabbing an arm would make more sense.

 

Follow-up Question: I I use TK to grab and move (not throw) a guy up in the air. If, next phase, he breaks out of my grip, he falls, right?

 

I'm wondering how one could approximate kind of bopping a guy in mid air indefinietly. Some fancy TK Dexterity to keep some one like a Rogue character out of play.

 

To look at it another way:

"The NY Giant" has a technique of bouncing normals off the end of his gigantic bat and sort of juggling them in the air. How does his opponent escape this, besides grabbing or attacking the bat?

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Question: Does TK Grab function like STR Grabs?

 

How is the "juggling attack" built? You can Throw or use Knockback to hit someone in the air, but unless you get them fairly high they very well may hit the ground before you have a chance to hit them again. granted if the character is SPD 6 or more and gets a Phase every other Segment this may not be an issue. He also has to make an attack action every time he does this. He might miss, and even if he hits every time, he isn't doing anything else. Now if you're useing a TK Grab to represent "bopping" them into the air repeatedly, than they just have to break out of the Grab like normal. If you are using Flight or Leaping UAA, well you have to define a "reasonably common" defense when you build the power.

[sporeworld]

Re: Question: Does TK Grab function like STR Grabs?

 

Hmmm. I think maybe I'm describing juggling, but it probably all comes down to a STR v STR roll, anyway.

 

How would one define one of those Fireman trampolines in action? STR probably isn't getting you off it, if the Firemen manipulating it want you to stay in motion. A DEX roll, maybe?

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Question: Does TK Grab function like STR Grabs?

 

I'm at work without my books and it's late, but off the top of my head.

25 STR TK with Effects Whole Object, Only to Grab/Lift (the "bouncing" would just be SFX), Requires a DEX Roll each Phase (to represent keeping lined up with the bouncing victim), maybe Grab doesn't restrict use of limbs/Accesable Foci, maybe Attack Versus Alternate Defense/Based on [Alternate Characteristic] (Target must escape with a DEX, not STR Roll, with Acrobatics giving a bonus to the Escape Roll).

 

I'm tired and have no clue if that is legal by RAW but it's a start. Is that what you are looking for?

[sporeworld]

Re: Question: Does TK Grab function like STR Grabs?

 

Pretty close. I like the idea that Foci would still be accessible, and that no real damage would be done. Probably some sort of Drain in there somewhere but not top priority. To keep someone in the air was really to goal.

 

Thanks!

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Question: Does TK Grab function like STR Grabs?

 

Maybe instead of a Drain a Linked Change Environment giving a penalty to the DEX Roll (the bonus for using Acrobatics would counter the Penalty)? Also, I forget to say Focus and probably Multiple Users in the build. Maybe a Limitation on the TK STR that it is based, in part, on the number of people/STR of the people holding the trampoline thing?

[sporeworld]

Re: Question: Does TK Grab function like STR Grabs?

 

Change Environment - Nice! That wasn't around a kajillion years ago when I played, but looks about right.

[Christopher]

Re: Question: Does TK Grab function like STR Grabs?

 

Fireman trampolins (and spidermans webs) aren't about keeping someone in the air, they are about "bleeding off" gravitic acceleration and halting the target.

 

Prarachutes and "Emergency Slides" are usually built as Flight, Gliding Only, Downward only.

 

Some have sugested building Spidermans Webs as "Barrier, Does not causes Impact Damage" (or at least extremely reduced impact damage). This simulates that a Target can "break through" thanks to it's own impact damage/falling speed, but will still loose some falling Speed.

 

 

About the juggling move:

I could see it as SFX for a Grab that Requires an attack action/Hitting the target every phase. Maybe built as:

Naked One Hex Accurate AoE Advantage for STR, Only to Grab target and hold it in the Air, Must attack grabbed target for damage every phase or lose grab. (and of coruse, maybe OAF for the Club).

 

I would not go towards actually moddeling that with Move with knockback or throwing Rules. And UAA suffers the problem that it can easily become "too indefensible" - and you have to built dealing damage too.

[sporeworld]

Re: Question: Does TK Grab function like STR Grabs?

 

Thanks.