Question: Knockback / Stomp Question

[sporeworld]

One of our players made a Super Mario mimic. He wanted to leap up and come crashing down on the bad guy. How should we have calculated the damage to the attack, with 12d6 STR vs bad guy, with 8 Knockback. He had a 12m leap.

 

Since the bad guys is getting pounded into the ground, does the Knockback stack?

Should it be treated like a Move Through?

Would he be pounded into the ground, or bounce off a few hexes?

If his STR had "Increased Knockback", how would THAT contribute to the KB damage calculated?

 

As always, your input is appreciated.

[Christopher]

Re: Question: Knockback / Stomp Question

 

I would use move-through rules, unless the player wants to make it a power/extra HTH-Damage, Linked to Leaping.

I would consider it "knockback into object". In this case the object is the ground/the street. Only potential problem I see is that the Ground has by definition almost "infinite" Body, so there would be no cap on the KB-Damage (of course Normal damaegs doesn't has that much KB-Damage).

The enemy might fall through bridges and the like.

 

According to the Rules, Double Knockback increases both the Range and the Damage taken, but it is considered an "Advantage that Affects DC-Calculation" by RAW as well (so this Move-through damage doesn't adds 1:1).

[Doc Samson]

Re: Question: Knockback / Stomp Question

 

We are fully 6e so I don't know if my reply will be helpful but maybe it will give you a place to start.

 

How the attack resolves depends on what maneuver the player chose. For example, if he chose a half move (6e2,p24) leap and a strike (6e2,p79) the damage would be a 12d6 for STR + 4d6 for the downward knockback (downward knockback does 1d6 per 2m as opposed to 1d6 per 4m). Also the player would have to declare his intention to use downward knockback before attacking (6e2,p116).

 

If the player declared he was using the move through maneuver, the damage would be 12d6 + velocity/6 d6 (or 2d6 if he were using his full movement) + 4d6 for knockback as above. As the attack did knockback, the player's character takes 1/2 of the damage himself (instead of full damage if the target had not been knocked back) and in addition if he had any meters of movement left, he continues his move through into the ground and will take a full damage move through to himself (6e2,p70-71). For obvious reasons, this option may be less desirable to the player.

 

The rules for downward knockback don't include bouncing so if I were GM I would probably describe the attack as resulting in an equivalent amount of damage to the ground, i.e. a big crater.

 

I'm not familiar with increased knockback but if the player had the double knockback advantage (6e1,p334) the knockback would have 2x the body of the attack minus the knockback roll. For example, if the attack did 12 body and the knockback roll was a 4, the knockback would be 24-4=20. The downward knockback damage would then be +10d6. Needless to say this is a brutal attack and villains with breakfall should use it to try to stay on their feet and decrease their knockback damage.

 

I hope this helps a bit.

[Christopher]

Re: Question: Knockback / Stomp Question

 

For example' date=' if he chose a half move (6e2,p24) leap and a strike (6e2,p79) the damage would be a 12d6 for STR + 4d6 for the downward knockback (downward knockback does 1d6 per 2m as opposed to 1d6 per 4m).[/quote']

Two things:

You can't be certain about the Knockback distance but the average roll one 2d6 would be 7. So more like 5KB Body/10m/5d6 from a 12d6 Blast.

All Knockback deos 1d6/2m, there is no special rule for Downward KB or vertical KB.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Question: Knockback / Stomp Question

 

See 6e V2 p 116, which has a section on downward knockback. It can be done in HTH, or from above in ranged combat. Knockback applies only to knock the target down, and does 1d6 per 4 meters (not 1d6 per 2 meters as the usual rule for hitting a structure). If he's attacked from directly above, the rule changes and the ground becomes a structure.

 

Applying this to the above, I's say if the character wants the "leap up and crash back down" as SFX of a Strike, Move Through or any other standard combat maneuver, he gets the 1d6/4 meters knockback model. If he leaps up, then uses his falling velocity for a move through, he can have the 1d6 per 2 meters, but that means delaying the attack until he falls down to hit the target in a later segment.

[Christopher]

Re: Question: Knockback / Stomp Question

 

See 6e V2 p 116' date=' which has a section on downward knockback. It can be done in HTH, or from above in ranged combat. Knockback applies only to knock the target down, and does 1d6 per 4 meters (not 1d6 per 2 meters as the usual rule for hitting a structure). If he's attacked from directly above, the rule changes and the ground becomes a structure.[/quote']

The 1d6/4m is if you not hit anything - bumping along the ground for example.

"Downward KB into the Ground" is specifically noted to do the normal 1d6/2m.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Question: Knockback / Stomp Question

 

Did you read the section I cited, Christopher, or just assume you were right? Generally, posting a page number indicates the poster has actually looked at the specific rule. Here's a quote, with emphasis added:

 

An attacker can' date=' if he chooses, Knock an opponent downward into the earth. He can only do this in HTH Combat, or in Ranged Combat if he can get above his target. To use this option, the attacker must declare his intention before he attacks. He then attacks and rolls Knockback normally. If he rolls any Knockback, the character is knocked prone where he stands. In addition, [b']the target takes 1d6 damage for every 4m of Knockback rolled[/b] (if he’s attacked directly from above, the GM should treat the ground as a “structure” and have the character take 1d6 per 2m of Knockback).

 

The general rule of 1d6/4 meters if you roll along the ground or 1d6/2 meters if you strike an object is modified specifically by "Downward Knockback" to not deal the usual 1d6/2 meters for striking an object unless you are attacked directly from above.

[Christopher]

Re: Question: Knockback / Stomp Question

 

The general rule of 1d6/4 meters if you roll along the ground or 1d6/2 meters if you strike an object is modified specifically by "Downward Knockback" to not deal the usual 1d6/2 meters for striking an object unless you are attacked directly from above.

You mean "directly from above", as in the OP of this thread?

Or is there a different interpretation for "One of our players made a Super Mario mimic. He wanted to leap up and come crashing down on the bad guy." I am not aware of?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Question: Knockback / Stomp Question

 

You mean "directly from above", as in the OP of this thread?

Or is there a different interpretation for "One of our players made a Super Mario mimic. He wanted to leap up and come crashing down on the bad guy." I am not aware of?

 

Thanks again for your careful read and insightful comments

 

See 6e V2 p 116, which has a section on downward knockback. It can be done in HTH, or from above in ranged combat. Knockback applies only to knock the target down, and does 1d6 per 4 meters (not 1d6 per 2 meters as the usual rule for hitting a structure). If he's attacked from directly above, the rule changes and the ground becomes a structure.

 

Applying this to the above, I'd say if the character wants the "leap up and crash back down" as SFX of a Strike, Move Through or any other standard combat maneuver, he gets the 1d6/4 meters knockback model. If he leaps up, then uses his falling velocity for a move through, he can have the 1d6 per 2 meters, but that means delaying the attack until he falls down to hit the target in a later segment.

 

Let's explain it again. The Mario clone is not "attacking from straight above". He starts on ground level, and he ends on ground level, in the course of the maneuver as described. Just as I would not give an automatic head shot for "I punch him in the jaw", I would not award the "attacked from directly above" results for "I maneuver so as to strike on the way down".

 

Striking to achieve downward knockback implies maneuvering so the force from your strike is in a downward direction, which is what the leaping attack does. And that is all it does. It does not enable the character to consistently "strike from directly above". If it did, no one fighting HTH should ever choose to strike for downward knockback without leaping up in the air to "strike from directly above" and double their knockback damage.

 

I'd consider allowing "direct from above" as a form of called shot penalty at (gut feel) -3 since it's not a huge benefit, so I equate it to a "chest hit" under the hit locations structure.

[Doc Samson]

Re: Question: Knockback / Stomp Question

 

You can't be certain about the Knockback distance but the average roll one 2d6 would be 7. So more like 5KB Body/10m/5d6 from a 12d6 Blast.

Unless I am mistaken, I believe the OP stated that the knockback distance was 8m.

 

with 8 Knockback.

[sporeworld]

Re: Question: Knockback / Stomp Question

 

To clarify, we want it to look just like it does in the video game - a stomp from directly above - crushing the target (maybe into the ground?). So, if we need to half move to above, and then crash/kick/move-through or whatever. We were even thinking it might function more like a Haymaker, with a little time delay between the jump and the slam.

[Doc Samson]

Re: Question: Knockback / Stomp Question

 

To clarify' date=' we want it to look just like it does in the video game - a stomp from directly above - crushing the target (maybe into the ground?). So, if we need to half move to above, and then crash/kick/move-through or whatever. We were even thinking it might function more like a Haymaker, with a little time delay between the jump and the slam.[/quote']

This is getting a little more complicated now. What do you want to happen when you crush the target into the ground? Are they stuck temporarily (Entangle) or are they likely out of the combat (Tunneling Useable As Attack)? The time delay from the Haymaker maneuver could be simulated using the Extra Time (1 Segment) limitation or you can simply build this effect using Haymaker.

 

While you can often create the same effect in several different ways in Champions, as a GM and player I recommend that you try to keep things as simple as possible, especially when you are first getting into the system. As such I would recommend building this effect as something like an Entangle linked to Haymaker, with the Limited Power Limitation, Only When Stomping the Target Downward from Above. The player might also like the versatility of being able to do a regular stomp attack (leap and strike) or a more powerful version that drives the target into the ground (Entangle) when he Haymaker's the stomp.

 

Again, I hope this helps.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Question: Knockback / Stomp Question

 

This mostly just sounds like a move-through using Leaping to me. More or less by definition, the 'knockback' is going to be down into the ground in such an instance.

[Doc Samson]

Re: Question: Knockback / Stomp Question

 

This mostly just sounds like a move-through using Leaping to me. More or less by definition' date=' the 'knockback' is going to be down into the ground in such an instance.[/quote']

I would agree but I think doing a Move Through into the ground is going to hurt (full damage in addition to the half-damage you took from hitting the target).

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Question: Knockback / Stomp Question

 

I would agree but I think doing a Move Through into the ground is going to hurt (full damage in addition to the half-damage you took from hitting the target).

 

You're not doing a move-through on the ground, you're doing a move-through on the guy. You'd take the half-damage for hitting the target (or full damage if you somehow manage to not roll knockback).

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Question: Knockback / Stomp Question

 

You're not doing a move-through on the ground' date=' you're doing a move-through on the guy. You'd take the half-damage for hitting the target (or full damage if you somehow manage to not roll knockback).[/quote']

 

Considering the target is essentially braced against the ground any amount of KB would have to damage the ground enough to allow the target to move to only take 1/2 damage. If the target doesn't move as a result of the attack then the attacker takes full damage from the attack as well (just not the KB damage).

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Question: Knockback / Stomp Question

 

Considering the target is essentially braced against the ground any amount of KB would have to damage the ground enough to allow the target to move to only take 1/2 damage. If the target doesn't move as a result of the attack then the attacker takes full damage from the attack as well (just not the KB damage).

 

I interpret differently, then.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Question: Knockback / Stomp Question

 

I interpret differently' date=' then.[/quote']

 

From 6e2 page 70-71

 

If the character hits his target, he does his regular STR damage + (velocity/6)d6 in Normal Damage (if a character adds damage to some other type of attack, each “+1d6” from velocity adds +1 Damage Class). The target takes full damage, and the character performing the Move Through takes half of the STUN and BODY damage done to the target. He cannot avoid this damage by taking Personal Immunity on his STR or Movement Power, but his appropriate defenses apply against it. If the attack did no Knockdown or Knockback, then the attacker takes the full damage instead (it’s like running into a wall — and yes, it’s possible for a character to Stun himself or Knock himself Out with his own Move Through). If a target Blocks a Move Through, the character making the unsuccessful Move Through attack doesn’t take any damage.

From the 5e FAQ:

http://www.herogames.com/rulesFAQ.htm?ruleset=Hero+System+Fifth+Edition&section=&keywords=Move+Through%2C+and+does+Knockback&dateString=

 

Q: If a character hits a target with a Move Through, and does Knockback to the target based on the die roll, but the target doesn’t move (perhaps because he’s standing against something that the damage can’t break), does the attacker take full damage or half damage?

 

A: Technically, he only takes half damage — he “did” Knockback, even if the target didn’t actually move (the rule doesn’t refer to having to move a target, specifically). However, in the interest of common sense and dramatic sense, the GM may, if he wishes, rule that this was the equivalent of “no Knockback” and apply full damage.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Question: Knockback / Stomp Question

 

I'd be inclined to interpret that, if no knockback is done, the target remains standing and the attacker takes full damage. However, if knockback is done, the target falls, giving the attacker some leeway before he hits the ground to avoid taking full damage (he would take no damage if he just landed on the ground after his leap, with no move through).

 

However, that would also mean I would allow the target the benefit of meters/4 damage, rather than meters/2, as he does not simply slam into the ground as if hurled into it.

[SSgt Baloo]

Re: Question: Knockback / Stomp Question

 

Knockback means the target absorbs the energy of the blow, killing further momentum in the direction of travel. the attacker in a move-through takes half damage. No knockback means the target was braced adequately for the attack. Since he stands rigidly instead of crumpling, some of the damage is "reflected" back upon the attacker.

 

In the first case, the kinetic energy carried by the attacker is cleanly transferred to the target, cancelling his momentum (in this case, downward). The second is more of a collision between the two combatants, so the attacker and defender receive full damage.

 

Yes, the real physics don't work that way, but Mario isn't real physics either.

[Doc Samson]

Re: Question: Knockback / Stomp Question

 

I'm wrong, the damage only gets applied to the attacker once for the target and not a second time for hitting the ground. My apologies.

 

From 6e2, pg. 71:

If a character performs a Move Through on a target, the situation may arise in which the Knockback roll indicates the attack would do Knockback, but the target can’t take Knockback (perhaps because he’s standing against a wall, or the like). In that case, the character takes only half damage from his own Move Through — he “did” Knockback, even if the target didn’t actually move. However, in the interest of common sense and dramatic sense, the GM may, if he wishes, rule that this was the equivalent of “no Knockback” and apply full damage.

 

A miss however is different.

 

From 6e2, pg. 70:

If the attacker misses his target and has meters of movement remaining in his Full Move, he keeps traveling in a straight line through the point where the target was standing (and may collide with some object in the vicinity, such as a wall or a tree, and hurt himself; he has no chance to hit other targets he would want to hit).