Tricky Garrote Maneuver?

[Ragitsu]

If a character wrapped a garrote around an unsuspecting enemy's neck, then reversed their stance and let the enemy get strangled while hoisting them up along their back (the garrote is very strong), how would this be accomplished, and what would the damage/penalties to the enemy be?

[Roter Baron]

Re: Tricky Garrote Maneuver?

 

I think a Garrotting Maneuver would look like this (5th Edition):

Maneuver Exclusive Basis: Strike (+1)

Non-Exclusive Basis: Grab Opponent (+1)

Helpful Elements: Disable (+0), Killing damage 3DC (+9)

Restrictive Elements: Only Grabs one Limb: Head (-1), Time+ (attack takes one extra segment) (-1), OCV -2 (-2), DCV -2 (-2)

Total Cost: 5 points

 

Weapon Element Garrote costs you another 1 point.

 

Thus you have: -2 OCV, -2 DCV, Disabling Grab 1D6KA (fixed location: Head), +1 segment attack

 

A Strangling Garrote does 3D6N, STR Min4, a Wire Garrote 1/2D6K, STR Min 5 so using this maneuver even a STR 10 soldier can do 2D6K with a simple piece of rope! And with ZERO chance for the victim to scream.

But the extra preparation segment give the sentry one chance to either see the attacker and attack him (already at -2 DCV!) or he could also just stroll along leaving a very frustrated would-be assassin.

 

If you want to leave the victim more chances then the attacker should execute the maneuver on his usual phase for the grab, but apply the damge one segment later (see the picture). This way it is not as deadly (what's good for the pcs is also good for npc!), giving the victim a chance to gat out of the grab (STR vs. STR, maybe add +5 STR for the garrote).

 

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[Ragitsu]

Re: Tricky Garrote Maneuver?

 

Hey there Roter Baron.

 

I appreciate your input on this combat matter. Would you say the particular rules build you chose allows highly skilled characters to execute this move regularly?

 

Also, 128 views, but only one response? Come on guys: you can do better than that.

[Roter Baron]

Re: Tricky Garrote Maneuver?

 

Actually, why not.

All that keeps a character from using this maneuver is a good Stealth roll (and maybe Concealment before that).

And I think it is quiet (and quietly!) deadly, especially if the victim is surprised (probably more often than not) and takes double STUN!

 

A GM should really think about the character of his campaign before such a maneuver is allowed - for a mercenary/ special ops/ covered ops/ assassin campiagn it seems all right.

For a regular Dark Champions campaign, even if all the PCs are really Punisher types, I would think twice and sleep it over ...

[Bolon]

Re: Tricky Garrote Maneuver?

 

My problem is that it should have an element of entangle. The initial grab is straight forward but the damage comes from being able to maintain it over time. If you make it one combat move doing all its damage and is over, that will negate every fight scene in every movie where someone has battled out of a garrote. How about the throat block as a defense for any choking attack? That is the single or double hands put up as armour and therefore negating the ability of the hold to apply force to the throat and cut off the air supply. For the same matter, how about hard neck armour like the piece every Canadian hockey player wears for games in the minor divisions now for protection from skate blades?

 

The maneuver is a grab with a crushing aspect afterwards. You need to hold on and the victim needs to get you off. There should be additional DCV for the attacker versus the victim for being more successful application. If the attacker is on the back, the victim is at a higher disadvantage to counter and get released versus a side or front. The attacker is relying on this DCV to maintain the hold. Even in the example where the attacker bends the victim over their back, it does take time for the attack to be effective and end the life. There needs to be some kind of strength roll at disadvantage based on how well it is applied. Then more strength damage is applied plus the garrote damage. Piano wire cuts more than rope, etc.

 

How about a degree of panic? If you have no training as a victim, you would be easy target as you wouldn't know how to break it. How about the special forces guy who has a hand block, draws his knife and cuts it or kills his attacker instead? How about the gymnastics roll or acrobatics to flip out or flip to the front and therefore take away all advantage beyond strength? How about forcing the attacker into walls or sharp objects for concussion damage? Finally, what if the victim was aware, placed a knife blade up as a block, cut the garrote and the attacker is standing there turning his back to the victim, with just 2 rings and broke garrote as a weapon? Wouldn't the victim now have a massive advantage to use that blade on an unarmed, unprepared target? That is why special forces have a knife mounted on their webbing in that position almost. A grab with knife attack to the throat is quicker and more effective.

 

I am an ex-cop and ex-soldier and know instantly to hand block and drop my weight countering that move drastically and simply. There is no question I would risk cutting up my hand over my throat and had been trained to do that daily in my hand to hand training with the hand block for the chokes too. I would then take out the legs of my attacker to force it to the ground via knife to hamstrings. It would then be roll over and put the knife in the belly to the heart, killing the attacker and any strength or cutting the tendons and muscles of the attacker's arms to disable the attack. Finally I would cut the garrote, sit up on the attacker and just finish the attack. Less experienced person might break the kneecap or cut open the thigh muscle. Ideally, going into the groin to counter would disable the opponent fast and possibly expose a kill shot of an artery. I could do this with or without a blade.

 

I am sorry but I would as a GM prefer a bit less realism and a bit more flow. Giving it a finality that it wouldn't necessarily have, makes it rather deadly especially when you consider the rule that whatever the players can use on the NPCs can be used against the players. As a GM, I would make a call on henchmen to finish them not based on damage but on set-up and opportunity versus damage. If the target is unprepared and the attack is flawless, then it might be a simple task. If not, an alarm might be raised or the attacker might be taking damage. Flawless is a superior stealth role on a careless victim who is on guard duty without a partner and the attacker hasn't had to move more than 5 ft to get to his target from cover. Remember the attacker needs both hands on the garrote and therefore isn't able to knock defenses out of the way or even do something else as a distraction to over his real intent.

[Bolon]

Re: Tricky Garrote Maneuver?

 

Looking at your technique diagram, the one hand grab chin, knee in back or behind knee to break down opponent and cut throat with other would be more effective. That is the standard commando technique. Why would you want to be without options? Garrote is a bad guy spy weapon and needs a lot of stealth and opportunity to be effective. I don't want to "rain on your parade" but it is rather ineffective without the perfect opportunity and perfect execution.

 

Gamewise, it would be easier to give complimentary for stealth, situation and other factors to an attack to counter the massive minus for a called shot to the throat. It would end up in the end to just be a decision by your GM anyways.

[Markdoc]

Re: Tricky Garrote Maneuver?

 

I simply define a garrote like this:

 

+10 STR for a rope/cloth garrote or +5 STR plus 1 pip HKA for a wire one (Limitation: only works on grab vs targeted limb or neck, -1)

plus Change environment, -3 to PER rolls: sound group (Limitation: Linked to grab (-1/2), only works to cancel victim's voice, -2)

 

Since I assume superheroes don't spend a great deal of time garroting each other, it's reasonable to assume that this will mostly see use in heroic level games and that hit locations will be in use. The penalty for targeting location 5 (the throat) is -10, and the penalty for grab is -2 for a total of -12! That make sit unlikely to be used in combat. On the other hand, against unsuspecting targets - which is pretty much the only time a garrote would be used, the penalty is only -7 ... and your target will be DCV0. It's not a sure thing, but hitting DCV7, should not be impossible.

 

If you do hit, you'll be doing double damage, and the victim will have a hard time escaping. On the other hand, if he has a gorget or other neck armour, that will give him significant protection.

Simple, and straightforward.

 

cheers, Mark

[Markdoc]

Re: Tricky Garrote Maneuver?

 

Looking at your technique diagram' date=' the one hand grab chin, knee in back or behind knee to break down opponent and cut throat with other would be more effective. That is the standard commando technique. Why would you want to be without options? Garrote is a bad guy spy weapon and needs a lot of stealth and opportunity to be effective. [/quote']

 

To be perfectly honest, I'm not seeing a big moral difference between cutting someone's throat from behind while they are unaware and crushing someone's throat from behind while they are unaware.

 

cheers, Mark

[Ragitsu]

Re: Tricky Garrote Maneuver?

 

Does HERO do enough to differentiate between the common melee "stealth kill" options: knife, hand strangulation, neck snap, and garrote (both varieties)?

[Roter Baron]

Re: Tricky Garrote Maneuver?

 

My problem is that it should have an element of entangle. The initial grab is straight forward but the damage comes from being able to maintain it over time. If you make it one combat move doing all its damage and is over, that will negate every fight scene in every movie where someone has battled out of a garrote. How about the throat block as a defense for any choking attack? That is the single or double hands put up as armour and therefore negating the ability of the hold to apply force to the throat and cut off the air supply. For the same matter, how about hard neck armour like the piece every Canadian hockey player wears for games in the minor divisions now for protection from skate blades?

 

The maneuver is a grab with a crushing aspect afterwards. You need to hold on and the victim needs to get you off. There should be additional DCV for the attacker versus the victim for being more successful application. If the attacker is on the back, the victim is at a higher disadvantage to counter and get released versus a side or front. The attacker is relying on this DCV to maintain the hold. Even in the example where the attacker bends the victim over their back, it does take time for the attack to be effective and end the life. There needs to be some kind of strength roll at disadvantage based on how well it is applied. Then more strength damage is applied plus the garrote damage. Piano wire cuts more than rope, etc.

 

How about a degree of panic? If you have no training as a victim, you would be easy target as you wouldn't know how to break it. How about the special forces guy who has a hand block, draws his knife and cuts it or kills his attacker instead? How about the gymnastics roll or acrobatics to flip out or flip to the front and therefore take away all advantage beyond strength? How about forcing the attacker into walls or sharp objects for concussion damage? Finally, what if the victim was aware, placed a knife blade up as a block, cut the garrote and the attacker is standing there turning his back to the victim, with just 2 rings and broke garrote as a weapon? Wouldn't the victim now have a massive advantage to use that blade on an unarmed, unprepared target? That is why special forces have a knife mounted on their webbing in that position almost. A grab with knife attack to the throat is quicker and more effective.

 

I am an ex-cop and ex-soldier and know instantly to hand block and drop my weight countering that move drastically and simply. There is no question I would risk cutting up my hand over my throat and had been trained to do that daily in my hand to hand training with the hand block for the chokes too. I would then take out the legs of my attacker to force it to the ground via knife to hamstrings. It would then be roll over and put the knife in the belly to the heart, killing the attacker and any strength or cutting the tendons and muscles of the attacker's arms to disable the attack. Finally I would cut the garrote, sit up on the attacker and just finish the attack. Less experienced person might break the kneecap or cut open the thigh muscle. Ideally, going into the groin to counter would disable the opponent fast and possibly expose a kill shot of an artery. I could do this with or without a blade.

 

I am sorry but I would as a GM prefer a bit less realism and a bit more flow. Giving it a finality that it wouldn't necessarily have, makes it rather deadly especially when you consider the rule that whatever the players can use on the NPCs can be used against the players. As a GM, I would make a call on henchmen to finish them not based on damage but on set-up and opportunity versus damage. If the target is unprepared and the attack is flawless, then it might be a simple task. If not, an alarm might be raised or the attacker might be taking damage. Flawless is a superior stealth role on a careless victim who is on guard duty without a partner and the attacker hasn't had to move more than 5 ft to get to his target from cover. Remember the attacker needs both hands on the garrote and therefore isn't able to knock defenses out of the way or even do something else as a distraction to over his real intent.

 

I do not really see your points.

Sure you can Block the garrotte - if you see it coming! So, the attacker did not make his Stealth roll but still has a higher DEX - go and Block! Adn even if you don't you don't suffer x2 STUN because you are no longer surprised.

You want to cut the garotte with a knife? Might be a special effect of a successful Block (like in Fantasy Hero - sword blocks sword) or a dirrect attack on the garotte (so yu weren't suprised, the Stealth Roll of the attacker failed and your DEX is higher.

Battling the garotte like in the movies is also possible: You most likely weren't suprised, but you still were attacked successfully BUT the damage didn't Stun you - try and break free! And an acrobat or contortionist might use teh Escape maneuver.

You don't want to break free but draw a knife and stab the attacker? Surely possible )if you are still conscious).

And of course somebody trained to counter attacks to the neck might know all these tricks.

I do not think it is an Entangle because the aim is to do damage and not to bind, hinder or fix the victim to a specific place without applying force. Unlike, for instance, handcuffs or a net.

 

As to the question "Why not simply use a knife?" - Well, why not simply use a silenced gun? - All besides the point since the task was "Garrote Maneuver", not "Slit the throat Maneuver" or "Shoot him in the head Maneuver".

 

As to the preference of a bit less realism: Perfectly understandable. This maneuver is deadly and this blade cuts both ways - npcs and pcs. Beware!

 

Of course you can also just attack and try your luck like Markdoc said. Isn't as deadly, because it doesn't work as often.

[Bolon]

Re: Tricky Garrote Maneuver?

 

If you can't see my points, try this.

A blocked garrote attack does the damage to the hand and not the throat, much lower damage. You always see a garrote attack coming since you need to swing the garrote through the field of vision of anyone but the unconscious and blind. A garrote attack is cutting off the airway. A person can survive a while without air so it is not instant. With a block, you are also not getting the caroroid? nerve and the effect it has. When against a guard or sentry as in diagram, you should expect a degree of awareness versus used against an assassination target who is unaware of any danger. The standard way a garrote is used, includes a second person to ensure that nobody else gets involved since the attacker is fully committed to his attack for the duration of the struggle. The length of the struggle can vary based on health, defenses and the counter. If the counter used prevents the damage, it becomes a choking scene which can last a long time.

My point is that it is impractical and there are many ways for it to screw up. My answer to your questions is that it is impractical and a high risk maneuver compared to other attacks. There was a comment on why so many views and only 3 comments. In my case, I saw how impractical this was from real experience and knowledge so I didn't respond until goated. I am sorry but your picture shows a rifle barrel that could be used to block. I am pointing out the disadvantages and restrictions that make other attacks preferable. Knives are issued and trained with for special forces. Garrotes are more difficult to use effectively and therefore are not standard issue. What will happen in the few moments that someone is being killed? It can be a lot and can even result in major complications for the attacker, if not the attacker's death. I would prefer the silenced shot to the head from a thousand meters but you still have the body falling down and making noise. Nothing is perfect and nothing is without complications, disadvantages and restrictions.

 

Media has the garrote as an assassin's weapon and requiring a high degree of stealth. Game stats place it at a -12 for a suspecting target in combat plus his DCV. If you get surprise, that would be a great and only be a -7 versus a 0 DCV. Realistically, how often do you get a party to all get surprise and make a stealth roll? If you don't get surprise, you have both hands committed to the close range weapon and your opponent has no restrictions. I don't see it as a good weapon to rely on but I do see it as weapon.

[Roter Baron]

Re: Tricky Garrote Maneuver?

 

Well, it actually isn't my picture but from a military handbook by the USA Army (I think - maybe Marines).

There are several other picture that show how a guard can be pummeled WITH HIS OWN HELMET! Talk about "highly unlikely" and "impractical" there - a garotting is a top-notch approach if your other plan is to hope that the enemy guardsman hasn't strapped his helmet and that you can rip it off his head and then hit him with the helmet into unconsciousness without him defending himself or making noise ... Probably a "I have no weapon, so what else could possibly work"-approach.

 

My argument is from a gamist point of view - I think my maneuver makes (deadly) sense from the perspective of the rules, but there are surely other options to handle it: Use Markdoc's approach (BTW: How often do you need to garrote someone in a game that you need to spend 7 points (5 for the maneuver, 1 for the weapon element, one for WF: Garrote)? or lower the damage of the maveuer to 2 DC and/or use my option of applying the damage one segment later, giving the victim time to react.

 

The real world use (ex-Bundeswehr myself) is - let's say - limited. But since you are ex-military yourself you probably know that not really everything in the armed forces make a lot of sense ...

[Markdoc]

Re: Tricky Garrote Maneuver?

 

If you can't see my points, try this.

A blocked garrote attack does the damage to the hand and not the throat, much lower damage. You always see a garrote attack coming since you need to swing the garrote through the field of vision of anyone but the unconscious and blind. A garrote attack is cutting off the airway. A person can survive a while without air so it is not instant. With a block, you are also not getting the caroroid? nerve and the effect it has. When against a guard or sentry as in diagram, you should expect a degree of awareness versus used against an assassination target who is unaware of any danger. The standard way a garrote is used, includes a second person to ensure that nobody else gets involved since the attacker is fully committed to his attack for the duration of the struggle. The length of the struggle can vary based on health, defenses and the counter. If the counter used prevents the damage, it becomes a choking scene which can last a long time.

My point is that it is impractical and there are many ways for it to screw up. My answer to your questions is that it is impractical and a high risk maneuver compared to other attacks. There was a comment on why so many views and only 3 comments. In my case, I saw how impractical this was from real experience and knowledge so I didn't respond until goated. I am sorry but your picture shows a rifle barrel that could be used to block. I am pointing out the disadvantages and restrictions that make other attacks preferable. Knives are issued and trained with for special forces. Garrotes are more difficult to use effectively and therefore are not standard issue. What will happen in the few moments that someone is being killed? It can be a lot and can even result in major complications for the attacker, if not the attacker's death. I would prefer the silenced shot to the head from a thousand meters but you still have the body falling down and making noise. Nothing is perfect and nothing is without complications, disadvantages and restrictions.

 

Media has the garrote as an assassin's weapon and requiring a high degree of stealth. Game stats place it at a -12 for a suspecting target in combat plus his DCV. If you get surprise, that would be a great and only be a -7 versus a 0 DCV. Realistically, how often do you get a party to all get surprise and make a stealth roll? If you don't get surprise, you have both hands committed to the close range weapon and your opponent has no restrictions. I don't see it as a good weapon to rely on but I do see it as weapon.

 

The answer to this is that the technique is taught - and used - in real life militaries because if executed correctly it's effective. Not as effective as simply shooting the victim in the back of the head with a silenced pistol, but more effective than trying to subdue him with your bare hands. Like many techniques taught to special forces, it's based on the principle "use anything available to augment your capabilities". It's not something that's likely to come into play very often - as you note, you have to sneak up on your victim, surprise them and then execute the attack successfully. On the other hand, it's not entirely a media construct - according to the official reports SBS forces attacking Faylakah in Iraq garrotted sentries prior to placing beacons for airstrikes.

 

Given its use - if rarely - in real life and its more frequent portrayal in the media, its inclusion in a heroic game setting seem appropriate enough.

 

cheers, Mark

[Bolon]

Re: Tricky Garrote Maneuver?

 

Game wise, I think the mechanics are sound. As a single chance to be out before that extra segment and damage with strength versus STR or even an acrobatics / escape roll, works for me. I do think that the attacker would then be required to hold it until it resolves. People do survive garroting due to the carotid artery reflex and it is removed early but not without scarring. If you are running high realism, you might want to add a choke aspect with an NND to simulate this. The defense would be hard neck armour. This should only be stun and therefore would take a subject out quicker. It would leave a scar. I think you might want to discuss that with your GM. Linking them on a successful skill roll or triggering it would simulate this but how far do you want to go?