Help with a Hulk-like character...

[Bloodstone]

Ok, I am playing my first Hero's game this Sunday and I am still trying to put together my character. Since this is my first time playing, I get to be ther party brick, as allegedly that's one of the easier things to play. So of course I had to go and make things complicated

 

My basic idea is a Banner/Hulk type character. The game is magic based, but is set in modern day, so insted of gama iradiated blood I got something a bit more setting appropriate: I have a demon bound to me.

 

The character is set up as sort of a schitzo with Multiple Personality Disorder. The "Banner" person is a very skilled normal, sort of an occult detective actually. Lets call him Jack.

 

The catch is, while Jack is aware of the other persona and can sometimes even interact with it, he has no idea that the two actually share a body. Think Fight Club. Jack has no clue that when the demon takes over that they becomes a 9' tall winged terror. Jack cannot control the transformation and he does not remember anything that happens when the demon is in control. The demon is mainly a ball of destruction and rage, ala the Hulk. No real skills, just frighteningly strong, tough as Hell and nealy impossible to put down.

 

So here's where I start asking for advice:

 

1) What is the best way to represent Jack's total lack of control over the transformations? Accidental change coupled seems close to what I want, but I still get the impression that the character can choose to triger the change and revert back to normal pretty much at will...accidental change just means Jack sometimes change from circumstances beyond his control, right? My idea is that Jack can ONLY changes from circumstances beyond his control. Essentially I want it to be a subcoucious battle of wills between the two of them as to who gets to "drive".

 

2) The demon is not a nice guy, but he is concerned about his own survival. I have it that he can be permenantly destroyed if Jack dies, so when danger rears it's ugly head the demon often steps up to save their collective asses. The down side is the demon usually is not content to let go. What's the best way to represent that? Should I use the personality loss disadvantage or would some kind of contested posession type effect be better?

 

3) Like I said, Jack and the Demon do talk from time to time. How do I represent that, since the demon doesn;t really exist? Exclusive mind link or is this just a SFX?

 

Now for an easier questions: Since I've never played before, I don't have to good of an idea what a typical brick has in terms of abilites. Can anyone point me to a web site that has NPC's that I could compare myself to? The Demon form is built on 200 character points + 150 disadvantages. While I'd like to imagin him as being rather like the Hulk, I'm sure the hulk is built on a LOT more points...but still I 'd like to know what I have to shoot for.

 

I forgot the character sheet at home, so off the top of my head the character has the following:

 

35 STR (30 base +5 from Growth)

20 DEX

30 CON

21 BODY (20 base +1 from Growth)

INT 10

EGO 10

PRE 10

COM 6

PD: 20 (all Hardened, Resistant)

ED: 20 (all Hardened, Resistant)

SPD: 4

REC 12

END: 60

STUN: 51

 

- Damage Reduction 25%, Resistant (Physical and Energy)

- Regeneration 3d6

- Absorption (Physical to STR) 3d6, 50 points max, only vs HTH, delayed return rate (5/minute)

- Claws: 1d6 HKA (2d6 w STR), no knockback, Armor Piercing

- Wings: Fly 8", restrainable, no NCM

- Life support (Immune to all Poison and Disease)

- UV Sight

- Growth (1 level, Persistant, Always On))

 

Skills: +4 CSL to all HTH

Martial Arts: most of the "Brick Tricks style" from Ultimate MA

 

How's that look?

 

Is there anything I should really consider taking? Is there anything that doesn't look particularly usefull? I really like the absorption idea, but would it be better to just take those points and put them in permenant levles of STR or BODY or something else?

 

Also, most of my powers don't use END. Should I perhaps sell back some of my END?

[JeffreyWKramer]

Re: Help with a Hulk-like character...

 

Good character concept. As I have said before, I absolutely *love* 5E Multiform!

 

To answer your questions:

1) You can and probably should have the Accidental Change Disadvantage, and possibly take it more than once to reflect different conditions that trigger the change. The thing to keep in mind is that Accidental Change is a Disadvantage, so it gives you no points if the conditions that trigger the change don't disadvantage your character (it may still be okay to take some 0-point Disads, though, to reflect the way your character works - the Demon form having Disads like "Revert from Demon to Human when out of combat for more than 1 minute" would be a -0 Lim). Things like "Change from the Jack to Demon form whenever supervillains are around" isn't a DIsad, but "Change whenever he observes violence" or "Whenever angered or frightened" are both Disads. You might also define Accidental Changes for both Forms - maybe certain kinds of attacks (touch of a holy item or holy water, for example) cause the demon to revert to Jack, which could be a major liability in the midst of combat.

In any case, if you want the normal form to have no control over the change, you have a couple options. First, you could give the Multiform Power the Limitation "No Conscious Control." That puts the change entirely at GM option, and is probably not the best option. A better option would be to purchase your Multiform with the Limitation (Limited Power) "Change only occurs when triggered by Accidental Change conditions." Now, it might seem funky to have a character save points on a Power via Limitation and also get Disad points for the same condition, but one should keep in mind, having no conscious control of using one's primary Power is a pretty major Limitation. The exact value of this Limitation would be up to the GM, but I would suggest anywhere from -1/2 to -1, depending on the number and variety of conditions that trigger the change.

 

2) I think having Accidental Changes define the only ways your character changes form is adequate for reflecting this aspect of the character.

 

3) Just a special effect.

 

BTW, as to the "no clue" thing, I assume you took the "Multiform Amnesia" Psych Lim (either on the Jack form, or on both?).

 

As to the Demon form - it looks pretty good, but I'd ask the DM what typical brick power ranges are for the campaign. The Demon's initial strength starts out low for a brick, but it has the potential to get quite hefty through the Absorbtion. If that's the effect you want (the more he gets hit, the tougher he gets), go for it! The "Growth, Always On" routine no longer exists in 5E, though - you get the same effect now by purchasing the appropriate points in Characteristics, then taking a Physical Limitation + Distinctive Appearance Disad to reflect the character's unusual size.

 

And I would definitely *not* buy down END. First, the Demon doesn't have Reduced END on STR, and as that absorbtion kicks in, you'll be spending a lot of END on using the STR (7 per attack when at max STR). Second, pushing your STR is one of the joys of playing a brick, so give yourself plenty of END to play with!

 

I didn't bother adding up points to see if you spent all 350, but if you didn't, I'd jack up some stats. Demons are supposed to be scary, so I'd boost PRE - as is now, your demon is about as impressive as the average guy on the street. I'd also either boost EGO or buy some Mental Defense, otherwise this guy is going to be tearing out his teammates' lungs the first time you run into a mentalist. Some extra defenses to reflect Demonic resistance to Fire might also be good (Extra ED, Resistant, only vs. Fire, -1)

 

Good basic character, though! Have fun!!

[Killer Shrike]

The character youve written up isnt really a brick IMO, but rather a martial artist. At most a "light brick" -- he's mostly scrappy.

 

I would recommend OIHID -- Multiform should be reserved for characters that have 3 or more forms IMO. Multiform is also one of the more complicated and easily abused constructs, neither of which traits recommend its use to a newbie.

 

As far as not changing, your GM might allow you to take a limited form of No Conscious Control, "Only Changes Into And Out Of Hero ID Via Accidental Changes", the value of which would be based on how many Accidental Changes you have and how often they are likely to come up.

 

As for an example, while there have been characters built very directly on the Hulk/Werewolf model before in our groups, I dont have any of them handy as they were all played many years back; however a current character that is similar (and happens to be a world-class brick at that) can be found here: http://www.killershrike.com/MillennialMen/MillennialMen.htm

 

Scroll down a bit and look at Chitin; a link directly to his character sheet is provided, and a Hero Designer file is available.

 

As for a mystic demonic type character with a possessed form, check out Nightwalker here: http://www.killershrike.com/EnforcersInc/EnforcersIncRoster.htm

 

or go directly to his sheet here:

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6160&perpage=20&pagenumber=4#Nightwalker

 

Good luck!

[Blue Jogger]

My two cents worth.

 

1) I think the heart of Accidental Change is that it is not possible or at least extremely difficult to change by conscious action.

 

2) If you use Multiform, you can express the different personalities with different psyche and social disadvantages. If the accidential change back to human is "Successful talked into changing" and that's highly unusual condition, then buy it as such. Although, realize the talking down a demon is only fun the first five times or so.

 

3) If you take something like Multiform Annesia, the GM may suggest Mind Link with a low Activation Roll. On successful activation, you can get an answer (although not neccessary a useful one or honest one) from the other form (as given by the GM). "What have you done with her?" (dice roll) "That she-demon will bother us no more." "Not good enough! Where is she?" (dice roll) "She changed into a demon, went through that wall, and headed towards Market Street." The really important stuff can get up to +3 on activation, really unimportant stuff (Where did you park your car, mortal?) can get up to -3 on activation.

 

3a) Demon should have some skills, but perhaps not at first. But a FAM: Demonic Magic and Rituals to represent the basic, "Are you kidding, this couldn't summon a demonslug." A strange sense or two, even if it's Discriminating Taste. (laps blood) "This is not human blood, it's goat blood." (pause) "What?"

[Killer Shrike]

Also, forgot at first, but here is a "were" base character built on an actual multiform with 3 forms:

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3205&perpage=20&pagenumber=17#Corax

[Lord Liaden]

HERO System Hulk Precedent

 

FWIW, when Darren Watts wrote up the Hulk for a movie promotion in Game Trade magazine a few months back, he used Multiform with the Hulk as the base form, giving him Accidental Change Disadvantages, and buying a Multiform to Bruce Banner with No Conscious Control at the -2 level, defined as "only changes back via Accidental Change."

 

BTW if you'd like to see that Hulk writeup, it was posted as a link to a free PDF on Game Trade's website. Just go to http://www.gametrademagazine.com/ , use the "Back Issues" menu on the top-right corner to go to June 2003, then click on "You Wouldn't Like Me When I'm Angry!" to download the PDF. The file also includes Hulk stats for the MSH Role-Playing Game, M&M D20 and SAS Tri-Stat.

[Farkling]

Part of the Hulk's package is that "over the top" STR boost he can generate. Your absorbtion is a good model for the gradual "anger makes me stronger model", as he gets batted around hurt and frustrated, he gets stronger.

 

An extended push is a fun idea also...

(+20 STR, no figured characteristics, x5 END cost)

 

That power costs about 6 points, and you get to push 20 STR for 10 END. And by push rules...you can still push another 10 STR for 10 END. Great power in emergencies. Especially since you can start burning STUN pips...

[Bloodstone]

Lots of useful information. After reading your responses and looking at the stats for some other bricks, I have signifigantly redesigned my character. I'll try to post him up some time later, as I am still working to balance out some of the fine points.

 

I decided to keep multiform, but I am now using it to represnet two seperate personalities in one body, both with vastly different skill sets and mental/social attributs.

 

The repressed darkside character (Oliver Kale) will have the ability to turn into the demon form...though not always willingly. By using Killer Shrikes "Only in Hero ID" suggestion along with Shape Shift and linked Growth (to handle the vast physical changes), that demon form is now much more brick like...and I like him...a lot. The GM approved of the changes so it looks like we are good to go this evening

 

Thanks for the replies everyone.

[Killer Shrike]

You dont have to use Shape Shift for characters with either OIHID or Multiform -- changes in appearance are handled by either.

 

Shapechanging is for characters like Mystique that can change their forms without changing their abilities.

[Bloodstone]

yeah, I was going to ask about that since I noticed Chitin didn't have anything like Shape Shift and he is normally a puny little kid.

 

So what you seem to be saying is that even though the demon form is 1.5 times larger and massivly different in overall physical appearance I don't need any knid of size/shape alteration power for it as it's essentially just SFX? That seems odd.

 

If that's the case I have a question. OIHID says switching ID's should take at least a full Phase in order for it to be worth anything. So far I am using shape shift (Sight/Touch), Costs END only to Activate, Increased END (x5), Extra Time (Full Phase). How else would you recomend working the transformation so that it takes a full phase?

[JeffreyWKramer]

I definitely wouldn't use Shapeshifting in this case. And again, I would go with Multiform rather than Only In Hero ID. If you do OIHID, the character's personality and Psych Lims will apply whether he's in human or demon form, which does not seem to reflect the character you described to start this thread. You can't really take the OIHID Limitation for separate Multiforms, though - you just buy different Powers, Skills, etc. for the separate forms.

 

Different forms with Multiform need look nothing alike or be the same size - recall the example in the book of the guy who is normally a human but can turn into an eagle, a tyrannosaurus rex, etc.

 

Also, noted again, Growth Always On is not technically legal in 5E, and is better reflected via purchasing the extra Characteristics and KB resistance, and taking combined Physical Limitation/Distinctive Appearance Disads.

 

As to the Full Phase Activation, the Multiform Power can be purchased with the Limitation "Extra Time - Full Phase", a -1/2 Limitation.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by JeffreyWKramer

I definitely wouldn't use Shapeshifting in this case. And again, I would go with Multiform rather than Only In Hero ID. If you do OIHID, the character's personality and Psych Lims will apply whether he's in human or demon form, which does not seem to reflect the character you described to start this thread. You can't really take the OIHID Limitation for separate Multiforms, though - you just buy different Powers, Skills, etc. for the separate forms.

 

Different forms with Multiform need look nothing alike or be the same size - recall the example in the book of the guy who is normally a human but can turn into an eagle, a tyrannosaurus rex, etc.

 

Also, noted again, Growth Always On is not technically legal in 5E, and is better reflected via purchasing the extra Characteristics and KB resistance, and taking combined Physical Limitation/Distinctive Appearance Disads.

 

As to the Full Phase Activation, the Multiform Power can be purchased with the Limitation "Extra Time - Full Phase", a -1/2 Limitation.

It sounds to me like he's using both. He's using multiform for his good self and bad self and his bad self has powers it can manifest with OIHID as the demon manifests itself physically. Of course, I could be wrong.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Originally posted by Agent X

It sounds to me like he's using both. He's using multiform for his good self and bad self and his bad self has powers it can manifest with OIHID as the demon manifests itself physically. Of course, I could be wrong.

 

Could be... but unless the "bad self" has a distinctly different ID, it shouldn't get OIHID for its abilities if the Demon also represents a Multiform. After all, what is the "bad form" if not the demon? If the bad form is always the demon, it shouldn't get OIHID for demon powers while in demon form. This is particularly broken if the bad self is not the character's base form, as alternate forms already get 5 points for every one point spent on Multiform by the base form; giving it a -1/4 Limitation on everything on top of that is way over the top.

 

If I was building this character, I'd build as so:

1) Oliver Kale, the skilled but essentially normal human, would be the base form. That is the form that purchases Multiform; more specifically, he purchases one alternate form, the Demon. The Demon is built on a base of 5 character points for every 1 point Kale spends on the Multiform Power.

2) This Multiform is purchased with the Limitation "Full Phase Activation" (-1/2). If Bloodstone still wants to have the character unable to consciously take Demon form, I'd also apply the "Activates only by Accidental Change" Limitation, the amount of which (probably -1/2 to -1) would depend on how many situations triggered the change, and at what frequency.

[Farkling]

Hey...I'll post the genre comparisons for a minute...

 

Dr. Blake and Thor in the comics...OHID limitation. Thor and Blake are esentially the same person with the same abilities. Blake has an amazing amount of knowledge about Norse Mythology, and Thor has access to Medical training and kowledge. One person who becomes something greater. The size and bulk of Thor are not appreciably more than a human. Suppression of magical powers will reduce Thor to wimpy Dr. Blake. Colossus of the X-Men is a classic OHID also, using persistant growth to model the size change, or a Physical Limitation (200 kg, OHID, Slightly Limiting, All The Time). Captain Marvel (Shazam!!) is a classic OHID character.

 

The Hulk and Banner...can be written either way, as OHID or Multiform. The primary difference is that Banner and the Hulk have overlapping psych limits, but no identical ones, and very few common skills. (Banner is a wimpy, repressed, analytic, control freak, the Hulk is a violent tantrum ridden child with the STR of a god)

I would use Multiform for the classic Hulk change...the time delay can be built in, and accidental changes will work nicely for the rage. Banner is defined as the "True Form" of the Multiform, and thus he will pay for the 350 pt Hulk form. A Dispel or Suppress against Multiform (a la Dr. Strange, mystic conjunction) will turn the Hulk into Banner again.

Colossus also fits here, provided one buys the relevant skills on BOTH forms. (Both forms have X-Men combat training and common skills and knowledges)

 

Shape Shift would be more for Mystique, whose powers don't change/flux with her switches. Shapeshift would be appropriate for J'onn J'onzz (Martain Manhunter) also, as his powers and abilities do not change when he is human. Shapeshift is also relevant for Nigtcrawler in his "Image Inducer" days, a slicker model than Images power itself. Megan of the old Xcaliber comics would be a ShapeShift also, but has a touch of VPP to mimic the powers of the form adopted.

 

To sum up::

OHID for wimpy mortals who exhibit powerful manifestations abilities and keep the same skills and knowledge base.

Multiform for those characters that exhibit a radical shift in skill, knowledge, and/or personality.

Shape Shift for mortals and immortals who can pass for something else, but essentially retain all their basic abilities in either form.

 

Due to personality shift, the human half of your brick should be built as you picture him, and should pay the points for the Multiform for the demon. The human is the "True Form" for game purposes, and the demon is the 350 pt character (keep in mind, the human will be coughing up 50-100 points for the Multiform). I would seriously consider the "personality loss" limitation on the Multiform along with the time delay. Accidental Change to cover the "survival shift" and possibly even one of the "reversion" limitations...causing the demon to flee mortality under certian circumstances (presence of Power Puff girl sappiness).

If the GM decides the forms are too different to share a subconscious, then you can alway buy a 'vague' Transdimensional Mind Link to the other form...after all, it must be somewhere in creation...

[Bloodstone]

It sounds to me like he's using both. He's using multiform for his good self and bad self and his bad self has powers it can manifest with OIHID as the demon manifests itself physically.

 

Agent X is correct. Sorry, I didn't make that clear before.

 

Detective Jack Ellis is the main persona. He's a skitish occultist with a sever lack of confidence and an over abundance of curiosity. Jack has a condition: he suffers from occasional blackouts. He is aware of and utter embarased by this, since he otherwise has an amazing memory and a good eye for details. It's really quite a terrible thing to be a detective and not be able to remember things. Anyhow, I sorta play him like Johny Depp in Sleepy Hollow, though he hasn't managed to actually faint in game yet

 

Oliver Kale is Jack's other half, so to speak. Confident, charming, rebelious and brave, he is everything Jask isn't. He also knows how to dress better, how to talk to women and how to have a good time. Oliver is an avid club goer, which makes him a bit of a night owl, so Jack and him don't see much of eachother these days, but they do talk on the phone quite often.

 

Jack and Oliver look almost identicle, since they share the same body. However, when Oliver is "driving" their posture and body language is clearly very different. Oliver also knows how to dress for success and wares his hair differently. Additionally his eyes turn from light blue to an unearthly red, a fact Oliver conceals with a pair of sunglasses as often as possible. In essence, no one would look at Oliver and think he was Jack and vice versa, though anyone that knows one of them well enough might do a double take.

 

Oliver knows and despises the fact that he is just a figment of Jack's imagination. Jack, on the other hand, has no clue. He thinks Oliver is just a close and somewhat frustrating friend with a talent for showing up/calling when he is both needed most and wanted least. Stealing from Fight Club, Jack has not yet figured out that Oliver is also "awake" when Jack is "sleeping" and of course Oliver insists that Jack not talk about him to anyone "Remember Jack-O, if anyone asks, I wasn't here..."

 

Oliver (and Oliver alone) has the ability to unlock the magic in their body, which enables him to trigger the transformation into demon form. Jack is simply too repressed to draw on the negative emotions necessary to complete the change.

 

To simulate Jack's multiple personality disorder I used multiform. Made the most sense since the two have vastly differnt skill sets and mental attributes. The power has Instant change to represent how quicly Jack can slip into Oliver mode. It also has personality loss after 6 hours and no concious control. However, Jack can only change by accident, with the triggers being when he sleeps (Very Common, 14-), when he is in life threatening danger (Uncommon, 11-) or when he is in an uncomfortable social situation (Common, 8-). Jack has multiform amnesia, so he doesn't ted to remember a lot of things that happen when Oliver is driving. "You should have seen yourself last night Jack-O..."

 

Both of the personalities have an exclusive Mind Link with one another, which is how they talk, though Jack often talks outloud when using the link (usually on his cell phone). They both have a large Mental Defense power, as their split personas make them somewhat difficult to read or control.

 

Oliver has all the other actual powers, most of them purchased with the OIHID limitation. Like I said before, I used Shape Shift and linked Growth to simulate the transformation from Oliver to "the Beast Within". I did this because Oliver retains all of his powers, skills, talents, mental limitations and quirks while in demonic form. Oliver does become stupider and uglier in demonic form, making it difficult to use skills like Seduction or Conversation. Just to clarify, since Oliver doesn't have access to any of Jacks skills neither does the demonic form.

 

In demonic form Oliver's personality remains pretty much the same, but he has a hard time thinking about anything except violence and destruction. Oliver can't really control the transformation very well and it tends to happen more by accident then by choice...for example it's much easier for him to change when he is enraged, which typically only happens when he is taking a beating or is some how tricked or humiliated.

[Farkling]

*shrugs*

 

I think I would still have built the Demon on a multiform, seeing there are some differences, and you're alrady buying Multiform anyway.

 

Jack could take a Physicla Limit in that case that he cannot Multiform to the Demon....or a Psych Limit if he could eventually become aware of the demon...(or have awareness forced upon him)

 

It sounds like the Demon IS mentally different than Oliver from your description, but does NOT suffer from Multiform amnesia.

Oliver does become stupider and uglier in demonic form, making it difficult to use skills like Seduction or Conversation.

In demonic form Oliver's personality remains pretty much the same, but he has a hard time thinking about anything except violence and destruction. Oliver can't really control the transformation very well and it tends to happen more by accident then by choice.

Is Oliver as strong and invulnerable to harm like the demon is? If you bought most of hispowers OHID, it should probably be a third multiform.

 

But that's my two cents...

[JeffreyWKramer]

I agree with Farkling on this one, 100%.

[Bloodstone]

I'm not sure how why, but when I checked the forum this morning JeffreyWKramer and Farkling's last posts on this thread didn't show up...odd.

 

So, your suggesting Jack buy a second Multiform with some kind of limitation that specifically prevents him from turning into demon form. I guess I could see that, though I'm really not sure how it will come out in terms of points.

 

Jack is a 350 character. Oliver is also a 350 point character, and this includes all the powers of the demon form. However, without the OIHID limitation on most of those powers, the new demon form would be at least a 400 point character.

 

Now, if I understand multiform, I would probably have to raise my mutiform signifigantly to be able afford both Oliver and the Demon, and I'm not sure if that will get GM approval. Now admitedly, Oliver would not be a 350 point character without all the demonic powers... hmm... I guess it's worth talking to the GM about it and see what his spin on this is.

 

As a side thought, would it perhaps be better for the Oliver persona to just buy the demon as an entierly seperate multiform with similar skills and personality quirks?

[JeffreyWKramer]

Technically, I don't *think* there's anything wrong with Oliver having his own Multiform, so long as that form can't be accessed/taken on by the Jack form. Some GMs may raise an eyebrow over that, though.

 

I would probably tend toward having Jack be the one who purchases Multiform, and let Limitations on the Multiform Power and/or Disadvantages such as Accidental Change define the conditions in which either he or Oliver is in charge (perhaps Jack can only become Oliver, and Oliver can become either Jack or the Demon). Let's say the Demon is a 400 pt character (base 200 + 200 in Disads). That Multiform would cost 80 pts. For +5 Points, Jack could have two Multiforms - the Demon, and Oliver (who could cost up to 400 pts, but need not cost that much). Since Jack is supposedly more or less a very skilled normal, 85 points should be manageable. It *is* legal for a Multiform to be worth a lot more points than the base character, btw.

 

If you have Jack and Oliver with separate Multiforms, Jack would pay Oliver's cost/5 in Points, and Oliver would pay the Demons's cost/5 in Points.

[Farkling]

heh...I meant that Jack would buy them both as Multiforms.

Sorry it was fuzzy.

 

He can be restricted on which form HE can access with limitations/disadvantages. I think Jack himself deserves a chance to manifest as the demon in the face of a dire threat to his existance.

 

Also...in the event that the demon is banished, should not JACK be the form defaulted to?