Questions about 5e

[David Akers]

I've been a Hero Games fan since 2e. Got it for my birthday the year it came out and played it for years.

 

Now, to my question. I haven't played in years, but I'm getting interested in playing again. Are the new rules truly that much better? Why are they better?

 

I know this is probably a tough question, but thanks in advance for any responses.

 

-David

[Monolith]

The rules changes between 4e and 5e are minimal. Probably not even 10% of the rules have been changed (and by rules I mean powers, skills, talents, perks, combat, ect.). The main advantage to 5e is the clarifiction of many rules and the expansion of others. For example, the Great Link Debate is now dead due to the rules in 5e. There are also new insights into the rules due to the hundreds of examples in the book. Things you might never even have thought of trying are now shown as examples.

 

5e is still not perfect. There are still some rules I do not agree with, and I think a new level of detail and complexity has been added to 5e with some of the changes, but overall it is still the same basic game.

 

One of the things I try to express to everyone when they first start reading 5e is too look at the game with new eyes, not old, pre 5e, eyes. The game has changes and you need to just accept those changes like you would any new game you might pick up at a FLGS. If you do not try to constantly compare the changes to 4e you will be a much happier gamer, IMO.

[Solomon]

5th Edition rules are clearer and more consistent. Also, they're slightly more abstract, which might or might not be a good thing. For instance, Talents are now just pre-built small powers.

 

Probably it's more of a change in perspective than a change in actual playing rules. Characters are usually deeper and more fleshed-out. Greater attention is paid to skills and "flavour" powers.

 

Overall, I really like it.

[TheEmerged]

While the following works from 4th Edition to 5th Edition, it should give you a good idea of what the changes are, and what I think they mean to the game.

 

Commentary on 4th to 5th Edition Changes

 

With a couple of exceptions, generally 5th Edition rules are clearer, more consistent, and truer to the way things work in genre fiction (especially true of duplication on that last point).

 

Bullet points for some of the biggies

• Many power descriptions were greatly enhanced -- in some cases (Force Wall and Change Environment) powers that had only a couple of paragraphs in 4th take up two pages in 5th.
  
• Change Environment has been expanded into its rightful place among the "How Do I..." mainstays like Transform & Mind Control. In particular, it makes "debuffing" effects more viable.
  
• A new disadvantage category Social Disadvantages works well for many concepts that didn't quite work in previous systems.
  
• Many, many new optional manuevers and combat clarifications (Linked Debate). This includes two optional manuevers that, if used, effectively give HERO an initiative roll.
  
• Many Talents are now skills or powers. Talents are now merely pre-constructed powers (Fantasy HERO in particular makes use of this mechanic).
  
• The sense-affecting powers now have differing costs based on whether the sense is usually targetting or not. Shape Shift is now a sense-affecting power (something many dislike but I love).
  

[David Akers]

Thanks for the comments...

 

Thanks for the comments. I guess I wasn't clear. I have *only* played 2e. I never got or played 3e or 4e.

 

-David

[Monolith]

Re: Thanks for the comments...

 

Originally posted by David Akers

Thanks for the comments. I guess I wasn't clear. I have *only* played 2e. I never got or played 3e or 4e.

Well the differences between 2e and 5e are like night and day. Almost every single aspect of the game has been changed in some fashion between those editions. There have also been several more Powers, Advantages, Limitations, Skills, Talents, and Perks added to the game as well. The difference between 2e and 5e is like the difference between a Model A and a Porsche. They are both cars, but that is all they have in common.

[David Akers]

I'm sold...

 

Now I need to know which books I need.

 

Do I need the big 5e book, or is the Champions book enough for the rules?

 

-David

[phydaux]

The biggest differance I noticed when I moved from 3rd to 4th (with about 10 years in between) was that END is now 1 END per 10 active points, not 1 END per 5 active points.

 

Also, 1/2 END cost is only a 1/4 Advantage, and 0 END cost is only a 1/2 Advantage.

 

Also, it seems superheroes are expected to be built with 350 points rather than 250 points. This seems to leave a LOT of room for skills, talents, perks and all the "background" stuff that makes characters interesting.

[phydaux]

The Big 5e Book, aka FREd or "Fifth Rules Edition," is all you need to play.

 

Champions is the genera book. It contains everything you need to know to create your own super hero world and run a superhero RPG except rules.

 

Champions Universe is the game world book that tells the story of the "official" Champions RPG universe.

 

As a player I'd snag FREd, then maybe Champions Universe. Just don't read the "GM Vault" chapter.

[Monolith]

Re: I'm sold...

 

Originally posted by David Akers

Do I need the big 5e book, or is the Champions book enough for the rules?

The only book which has the rules in it is HERO System Fifth Edition. Champions, Star Hero, and Fantasy Hero are Genre Books. They define the genre and give examples, including some powers and gadgets and sample characters, but the Genre Books do not contain any of the actual rules.

 

If you are wanting to play Champions, then at the minimum I would suggest would be:

 

• HERO System Fifth Edition (called FREd on the boards).

• Conquerors, Killers & Crooks (CKC, about 100 villains).

• UNTIL Superpowers Database (USPD, several thousand superhero power combinations)

 

If you also want to know more about the genre itself and how to build an interesting superhero campaign I would also recommend Champions.

 

Champions Universe and Millennium City are just two parts of the Champions superhero Universe and are really only needed if you want a predefined world to game in. I use it myself, and like the Champions Universe quite a bit. It has a classic superhero comic book feel to it.

[David Akers]

GM Vault...

 

I would probably read that section because I've always been more interested in GMing rather than playing. All the fun of playing *and* you get to control it.

 

I will have to take a look tonight at the local shop to see what they have in stock. DOJ might just get the order instead, because I don't remember that my shop had much.

 

-David

[Bartman]

I guess a good question would be, did you ever play Justice Inc, Espionage, Danger International, Robot Warriors, or Fantasy Hero? Several of the changes from 2nd to 5th are ideas that were originally developed from these. So you may recognize the expanded skill lists, martial arts and many of the talents from these games.

 

Let's see what has changed.

 

Characteristics - These are still exactly the same. All the same stats are there. They still have the same costs and base values. DEX still provides OCV/DCV. 5pts of STR gives 1d6 damage etc.

 

Skills - The skills are almost entirely reworked. The basic mechanism is stil there, but virtually all skills cost 3 points and the list is vastly expanded. A number of skills have been made into powers instead including Swinging, Find Weakness and Luck.

 

Martial Arts - These have been completely reworked. Rather than just a straight multiplier of strength you buy the individual manuevers seperately. Each manuever adds various bonuses based on how it is used. If you really like the way they used to work you can just buy the manuevers listed as the Generic Martial Arts and you'll have almost exactly the same thing. The real advantage is that is now alot easier to have a 10 STR sensei who can punch through brick walls.

 

Talents - This is class that didn't exist in 2nd ed Champions but did in the other 2nd ed Hero games. These are semi-powers that even non-supers may have, Eidetic Memory and such. These have largely been worked into the powers lists. Basically an entire class of abilites came into being and have more or less disappeared since you played.

 

Perks - These will be new to you. They represent various advantages, legal standings, etc. like Wealth or Police Powers. Followers (sidekicks) and Bases fall under here as well.

 

Powers - Many of these will be pretty much as you remember them. There is probably about a 50% increase in the number of powers including things like Extra-Dimensional Movement, Clairsentience, and Aid (basically a reverse Drain). However between 2nd and 5th virtually every power has changed a bit. Armor has a different cost; Flash works differently; Entangle has dozens of new options; Enhanced senses have been completely reworked; Desolid has been radically changed; Shapeshift is practically unrecognizable. And a number of powers have been lost or rolled into other powers including Power Destruction, Instant Change, and Mental Paralasys.

 

The combat rules and such have likewise been greatly expanded. There are dozens of combat options. Which can be a bit overwhelming at first. But it helps create a far more cinematic feel. In general characters are far more detailed and much better described. The rules are cleaner and much more specific requireing far less GM handwaving. But there is a lot more there than there was three editions back.

 

I highly recomend it having played more or less continuously since 2nd ed. But you will need to read the rules thoroughly. Otherwise you'll find a lot of your assumptions don't hold true any longer.

[zornwil]

People have provided great details to this point. I'll just a more personalized 2 cents: at first I was not only suspicious but a bit dismissive of 5th (as I was of 4th), but now I'd have to say that overall it's an improvement, even if slight.

 

But it's value is NOT (in my opinion) as a rules book per se. Rather, it's an interesting elaboration on HERO rules with many new and interesting ideas. There's a LOT of it I don't use, but I don't regret buying it and reading it one bit, rather, I think it increased my understanding and made me think more closely about the rules, even if I disagreed with some of Steve Long's conclusions.