Starlord

Re: Fantasy HERO page count?

Originally posted by hybris

Is there any information on what the approximate page count of Fantasy Hero will be?

 

Alas, the catalog on the main page seems to list this only for books due in 2004, but not for books that aren't as far away, like Fantasy Hero.

 

Hopefully it will be over 300 pages, like Star Hero.

It'll probably be even bigger than Star HERO. I'd also be interested in knowing who is doing the cover for Fantasy HERO.

Big FRP fan here as well. I'm probably one of the lucky few who also has an excellent FLGS, but FRP gives such great deals if you preorder that I often go with them.

Make Mine FRP!

Originally posted by Nucleon

I'll give you one better; when I come here, I mostly play by the system but you should see our extensive list of house rules.

 

 

I guess it all begin when first playing the game with gamers that made many rules errors, some 10-12 years ago. We learned the rules while playing, but were not ready to let go the way things worked before we knew the correct rule. Then there's the broken stuff. And the supplements (Ninja Hero had a big influence.)

 

I don't know at which extent seasoned HERO players use optional or house rules, or if the majority play in the most orthodox manner possible.

 

I'm weird too. My two main games are HERO and D&D. For HERO, I've almost exclusively played by the rules. Very strict.

For D&D, almost everything was optional. Things would change from week to week almost.

Interrupting this thread for a special announcement:

Just noticed this...Happy Birthday, Morningstar.

My b-day was yesterday...what a coincidence.

I now return you to your regularly scheduled thread.

Originally posted by Nucleon

Maybe Nucleon Will just Alter his Moleculo-Cosmic structure as to be impervious to your Raging Fist of Flame, Starlord.

 

Eh. I'm all hot air anyway. Obviously playing your way has worked for you...that is what is important.

Originally posted by JohnOSpencer

On topic, how do you subtly convince someone that their comcept is too powergamey for your game? The new characters currently have an average DEX of 21 and speed 5. One guy wants to make a brick and is immediatly talking about DEX 26+ and SPD 6. I want to subtly discourage him, and I'm about as sublte as a lead pipe to the forehead(heeey...that's not a bad Idea! )

 

John Spencer

I would ask him what he thinks is important about his character. A brick should be the strongest/toughest on the team. Ask him how he'd feel if 2 other guys wanted higher STR than him. Then he'd have nothing to stand out. Remind him that everyone will have the most fun if EVERYONE is happy with their characters. You can't 'have it all' when playing on a team.

Also, try a slight limitation like forcing everyone to have a certain amount of points spent on noncombat skills/talents/perks...say 30-50. Make sure you bring up situations where they can use some of those skills/talents/perks in the game also. With 50 less points to spend, your brick will worry more about his STR, defenses, and a few 'brick tricks' before he worries about that DEX and SPD.

If all else fails, THEN hit him with the lead pipe. He's a brick...so he can take it.

Originally posted by Stargazer

it seems, starlord, that u didnt catch Nucleon's way of writing...

wich is basicaly in character...

 

who cares if he speaks of himslef in the 3rd person or calls others mortals??

it just for theatrical...

and pointing out gramatical errors the way u did to Nukleon is something i find insulting... when u dont know where someone comes from u shouldnt say anything and take it as a typo...

i would very much like to see u post in Nucleon's mother tongue... and see how perfect u write.....and if utake someone's profile that seriously..u defnetly a long vacation.....

Careful there, Stargazer. This post constitutes 'cheerleading' according to Nucleon. He might be offended.

Originally posted by Nucleon

Let it be known here that Nucleon comes here to discuss seriously about lighter stuff, or discuss lightly about serious stuff. Not for a minute does He takes himself too seriously, for He often writes about sterner stuff on other boards under His secret guise. Then he comes here to relax a bit while talking about His favorite Hobby.

 

And even thought He is haughty, never will he condescend to the level you displayed in that former post of yours. If you disagree, try to be constructive and open about it. If you can't, I suggest you to go somewhere quieter where dissidence will be more sparse. You'll feel better.

 

Just saying "leave" might've been easier. No thanks, I'll stay.

Originally posted by Nucleon

Yes, you were meaningful up to there. And Gary is 1-1-1 about the rules so far, even thought "relentless" about the rules would be more apt.

Oh, I was meaningful until I dared 'cheerlead' against you? YOU mentioned a rule, Gary called you on it. He proved you wrong and you wouldn't listen. He called up the FAQ, then you fall back on "Well, its an optional rule". He calls you on that, you still don't listen. I told Gary not to worry about you, you very clearly just wanted to argue. Now I see above, after YOU argued rules with him point-for-point for the past 3 pages, you (quite hypocritically) accuse HIM of relying too much on the rules. Whatever.

Originally posted by Nucleon

"Starlord" is so much more serious than "Nucleon" for that matter. How would you feel if you were accused of not being serious by someone named "Toto the Clown", eh?

Yes...but I don't hide behind the excuse, "I'm debating serious matters IN CHARACTER.", just so I can be pretentious and condescending to people.

Originally posted by Nucleon

Lastly, English is not Nucleon's first language.

That's why I used the 'funny, sticking out tongue' smiley. It wasn't a serious retort.

Originally posted by Nucleon

So have a care, mortal.

Or what? You blast me with Nucleonic energy?

Originally posted by JohnOSpencer

I need you to come over and teach my group something.

They don't work as a team. There opinoins of the other characters are...low. They think it is funny when some gets punked around. And they all try to out do everyone else(more or less).

 

Their DEX war started when the Maritlal Artist was slower than the Mage. The mage left and a mentalist and a combat monster showed up. Neither were faster than him, but both were as fast as him, so immediatly he starts buying DEX and Speed. The Brick, tired of being the slowest, bought dex and speed. Slowly everyone has been creeping up the DEX/SPD ladder until we get the group with an average DEX of 28 and an average SPD of 6. It is darn near impossible to use premade anything against them. They punked Mechanon in 2 turns. He just couldn't touch them without spreading so much he didn't do enough damage to stun anyone. So after tonights climactic battle, we are retiring the camgaign and starting a new one where everyone tells me a concept and we decide how to make it. This way we have no DEX war.

 

John Spencer

Ouch, thats tough.

I think it has to do with respecting the team and, especially, everyone else's character not just your own. That's why we had so much fun and we're able to play and be happy on the same campaign for 6+ years.

Originally posted by Nucleon

Quite constructive Starlord. Rather than continuing our discussion, you're being an exellent cheerleader. Nucleon is not impressed.

 

The opinion of a person who constantly refers to himself in third person and others as 'mortal' isn't very impressive to me either.

...and I'd think for the 'all-powerful' being you claim to be you'd know that:

A. I've been an active and meaningful participant in this thread

B. Gary is correct about the rules

C. It's 'excellent' with a 'c', not exellent.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Interesting...

Originally posted by Shaun Hendricks

On the surface, that 'seems' to be the case, however, my group have discovered major flaws with the 'total points' acting as a balancer. This doesn't come out as much in playing Super Heroes as it does in other genres, since the Hero System was primarilly designed for Super Heroes.

 

snip...

Ah. See, being in the Champions forum I always assume that we're referring to the Supers genre.

I never encountered any major problems playing without limits in all my years playing HERO in the supers genre. However, at lower point totals I COMPLETELY agree with you. While I have far less experience playing Fantasy HERO, we did find that strict AP, CV, PD, ED, etc., limits had to be set. My experience is the system starts breaking down around the 200 point and under level. Of course, maybe others had different problems.

Re: Arguments for Arguments sake...

Originally posted by Shaun Hendricks

You guys do realize you are debating make-believe characters, which rely on a great deal of personal perception as to abilities and capabilities, as well as rules to a system which seem to be flavored by the 'author of the moment' and some built in flaws that spawn massive amounts of house rules in many gaming groups.

As I said before to debate actual stats/abilities for characters you need a baseline or set of ground rules, which just happens to be the established Champions characters. To be fair, I don't think everyone here was specifically arguing character stats. They were using established characters to try to show different concepts at different power levels and different types of game play.

Originally posted by Shaun Hendricks

Is it REALLY worth it to start sniping at each other and making this personal? Dunno about you guys but I'd rather have a bunch of friends with the sytem in common than enemies made by getting technical or devisive.

 

Just some food for thought...

You are correct here.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Interesting...

Originally posted by Shaun Hendricks

When I role-play via the internet, I play (and GM) without a system at all... the story rules the 'game' as it were. So I agree with the post here, but the ultimate extension of that 'logic' is simple cooperative storytelling. The GM builds the universe, runs the NPC's and the Player runs the protagonist. This works well in solo-player games, but tends to break down with multiple players. Thus the system is needed to act as a comparative restraint method to the players, even if they are incredibly mature. By nature, people (read: players) are competitve with each other.

No, limits aren't necessary, but you still must have SOME kind of limits on the game, be they CV, Points or ceilings of other sorts. You can't have one player build "Docter Dexterity" with CV's in the neighborhood of 20 and someone else build "Miss Manners" who only has CV's in the sub 10 range. These characters can't face the same badguys, can't fight well as a team. As a GM, when you say "I want your CV's between 8-11" you have just set a limit. "Doctor Dex" may end up with an 11 CV and tons of levels of Lightning Reflexes to make up the character conception points, but in the end, you have to have a realistic 'spread' of characters and this requires limits to both the upper and lower end of the stat/power/skill spectrum.

 

My current ruling philosophy for players is: use as many points as you like, but here's your CV/Power/Skill limits. We've even developed a sophisticated 'balancing' system for these limits so that they can 'slide' around in relation to one another and keep characters balanced between each other. It seems to work really well and also keeps the badguys balanced in relation to the players without much hassle.

Sure thing, but...we still never set ANY limits whatsoever (well, other than the obvious one: total points). The points balance themselves. If you build a guy with 100 DEX in a 350 point game, he still has ALOT of weaknesses. Now metagame-wise, we all agreed to have our schtick and noone was allowed to infringe too much on that. The MA never came too close to the speedster who never infringed on the 'weird powers' guy who never infringed on the straight 'energy projector', etc. Occasionally, we would agree to always allocate a certain number of points to skills/talents/perks.

Originally posted by Gary

Read page 35 of the rulebook. It specifically states that the 3 pt CSL can only be applied as DCV vs the same types of attacks for which it could increase OCV. And it has a specific example of a swordfighting martial arts level which can increase DCV in HTH, but not in range combat. It's right there in the rule books. So all 10 of your 3 pt CSLs with MA are worth nothing vs ranged attacks.

 

 

 

That's the problem. You somehow think that 30 dex is ridiculous, but 28 str is ok.

 

Page 28 of the Champions Universe specifically states that Legendary Humans can reach 30 in physical stats. And they don't come any more legendary than Captain America.

He's not going to listen, Gary. Its obvious at this point he'd rather ignore the rules and stated genre conventions just so he won't have to admit he's wrong. I've seen these people before.

Originally posted by Trebuchet

IPlayers and GMs must recognize that all characteristics are relative within each individual campaign, not on a Cosmic Scale of Characteristicsâ„¢. If the average team brick is a DEX 11 3 SPD ,then perhaps the martial artists can get by with a 20 DEX 4 SPD. But if the bricks are at DEX 18 SPD 4 then the martial artist needs to be faster. In general, I think a martial artist should be at least 50% faster than a typical brick in the campaign. Considering that "normal" humans have a SPD 2 and well trained agents or soldiers would likely have a SPD 3, SPD 4 is hardly slow. Once again, the proper benchmark for comparisons is normal humans with DEX 8 SPD 2. Compared to that standard, a brick with a DEX 18 SPD 4 is a world-class athlete. That's as it should be; CHAMPIONSâ„¢ is a superhero role-playing game. Superheroes should be amazing athletes, it's part of the genre.

Great point. If your supposedly quick MA is at a lowly SPD 4, where is your brick? SPD 3?!?! The equivalent of a VIPER Agent? The Hulk, Thor, Thing, etc., DO NOT move at the same pace as lowly agents. Please.

Look at linemen, linebackers, and Worlds Strongest Man competitors. They are proof that big and muscular guys aren't slow and plodding. In actuality, they are very fast.

Re: Re: Interesting...

Originally posted by lemming

It's the Cleaver!!

 

I don't run with set limits. (or at least that I've had to limit) Then again, I've got very reasonable players so I don't have any worry.

Never played with limits, either. Never had a problem with stat races, either. Even 20 years ago when we were all 13-14 year olds.

I suspect stat escalation it has nothing to do with rules problems, its more of a player/GM maturity problem.

Originally posted by Morningstar

Now look at the throwing table: Thor and the Hulk have both thrown large tanks completely out of orbit. Um..what exactly is that STR score? However if you look at there lifting ability on the chart they would stat no higher than 60--80. Hulk can lift 90(over 100 when angry) tons which would be certainly no more than 200 in champions lift. With that 65 STR he could throw a tank 8 meters! Not exactly out of orbit. Grond with his 90 STR could throw it 28 meters. Wohoo!

 

Sounds like you might be following the OHOTMU too closely, my friend. The strength levels in the Handbook for the upper echelon guys are pure bunk. The Marvel Editors-in-chief for both runs have even admitted as much. All the big Marvel heavy hitters have easily lifted things in the couple hundred ton range (and more) many times in the comics.

 

You can pretty much assume the weight limits for anyone stronger than Spidey in the Handbooks are way off.

 

Just FYI (now I've veered even further off topic:eek: )

Originally posted by Nucleon

I think you guys have somewhat lost perspective. It seems to me like your heroes belong more to the 90s Image stuff, drawn by Liefield. They could vanquish these icons of yours such as Cap on any given day. But would they sell?

 

Without concept, no, of course.

 

Abdicate, mortals!

You assume we don't have perspective? I would say thats pretty narrowminded. I'm sure most here are comic fanatics to one extent or another. I've been reading them 25+ years myself. At one point, I had over 10000 comics before I downsized. The largest portions were Avengers and Thor.

I won't argue isolated incidents. I could go in the opposite direction as yours and bring up the time Cap picked up and threw a motorcycle with one hand. My perspective comes from examining the character as a whole, and what they most often can do.

Originally posted by Pattern Ghost

Yeah, and all Cap fights are hordes of Hydra agents...

 

Here's the deal:

 

Cap has:

 

One of the best initiatives in the Marvel Universe

One of the highest CVs in the Marvel Universe

A boatload of DEX-Based skills at high levels

 

If I got a character sheet with a bunch of DEX-Fudges like Lightning Reflexes, CSLs, and Levels with DEX Skills, I'd hand it back and tell the player just to buy the stupid DEX.

 

He also has:

 

Mediocre defenses without blocking/deflecting with his shield

A huge habit of using that shield against superhuman attacks, including ranged and strength based.

The ability to run through vast hordes of agents, and take them down.

The ability to make an offensive attack a panel after doing a bunch of deflections.

 

That's SPEED, folks. If he has a 4 Speed, he'll run out of actions to abort to WAY too soon, and NEVER go on the offense. He cannot sweep agents who aren't standing adjacent to each other. He could sweep and move, though. A SPD of 6 is totally reasonable, and a heck of a lot easier to read on a sheet, and to adjudicate than a buttload of special attacks and PSLs cluttering up the place.

 

Cap's performance is best modelled by a high DEX and at LEAST a 6 SPD. The "concept is king" argument doesn't wash when it gets in the way of gameplay.

 

If you think the NCM rules are what to go by instead of the NPCs, I suggest you read them, b/c taking NCM is an OPTION. You don't have to take the disadvantage. What would be the point in taking NCM for 20 pts of Disads if you're going to spend over 20 pts buying abilities (STR, some DEX, and CON were noted earlier as buy ups) over NCM anyway? NCM should either be a campaign rule or not be used, and has no real place in a supers game.

 

Also, if you want to use the NCM discussion and tables as a basis of argument, try reading the Champions Genre book and seeing what it has to say on the subject. I'll save you the effort.

 

From page 57:

 

 

 

Let's parse that, shall we?

 

Upper limits of Legendary are 30 for primaries and DEF 15, SPD 6-7, REC 11-13, END and STUN 60, and higher than NCM movement.

 

"Few humans reach this lofty plateau.." Stever Rogers was given a drug and radiation therapy specifically to reach this plateau. He is the freaking poster child for this plateau.

 

"heroes and superheroes" I think Cap qualifies there.

 

"Only truly exceptional individuals..." Again, he's the poster child for truly exceptional.

 

"...is the upper limit of normal human attainment." CONCEPT CONCEPT CONCEPT.... that IS Cap's concept, in the nutshell.

 

The NCM = 20 and SPD 4 argument is a moot point dealing with Cap or any other superhero.

 

If you're bored and want to throw away WAY more points than you net from taking NCM when building him, that's fine, but he's not capped at 20/4, or even 23/5.

 

Now, if you want to build a low-speed Cap, there is a whole sidebar on lowering the NCM threshold, and since Cap exceeds that threshold to the maximum attainable by normals -- the maximum a normal can buy over NCM -- you'd want to adjust that NCM threshold. Cap is the benchmark, though, and if you impose NCM on him, he's going to end up buying over in any event. There's threshold, then there's max you can buy over, which is Cap-land.

I think that about sums it up. Brilliant.

Originally posted by Morningstar

Stargazer& Nucleon,

 

When you say things like Cap should have a 5 speed and Batman a 4 Speed, are you completely ignoring the over 100 characters that Hero Games has already provided for us? If you are simply saving that in "your universe" none of these characters would have the DEX and SPD scores they have, well fine, but The same people who created this game, and who's boards we are discussing this in, completely disagree with you! PLEASE ANSWER THIS!!! Would you but BATMAN in to the Champions universe with a 4 SPD and 20 DEX when dozens of trained normals have higher scores than this?

 

NIGHTHAWK of the Champions has a 25 DEX and 6 SPD and he is only a 350 point character! So Batman is slower than this guy??

 

Their brick IRONCLAD has a 20 DEX and 5 SPD. So the 350 point brick is faster and just as agile as BATMAN??? INSANE!

 

They have OBVIOUSLY established that it is ok for trained normals to have dexterity scores in the mid 20's and SPD scores to be at least 5 or 6 for this type of character, not to mention a top of the line very experienced, best of the best type like BATMAN.

 

As far as Captain America goes, are you ignoring that his CONCEPT and ORIGIN have ALWAYS been that he is a Strong, fast and tough as it is humanly possible to be! I commented before that those pesky guys at Champions(yes that game again) made TELIOS the perfect man fit that profile. They gave him 30 stats across the board except INT since he created the ability himself. Logically that makse me think Cap would hit these scores plus combat levels.(He is not a 350 point character!)

 

I think everyone understands that you think DEX scores are too high and levels are underused. But I think when most of us uses the example characters created by the same people who made the game, as a basis for our own characters that is quite valid. And then we naturally stat Iconic top of the line Marvel and DC characters high in that range, it makes sense to us!

 

I am sure I am not the only one that feels this way. Someone out there give me some affirmation!

Yes, excellent points. I have said this repeatedly in the past.

Look,

Person A wants to make a DEX 11 Spidey. Fine.

Person B wants to make a DEX 50 Juggernaut. Fine.

Person A plays one way, Person B plays another way. Fine.

That argument is neverending and, frankly, noone is REALLY wrong.

HOWEVER, in order to argue them logically and present them in an open forum as realistic, you have to have some kind of overall baseline to go from.

That baseline HAS to be the 100+ characters given us by the gamemakers. I see no other plausible solution.

I think everyone can assume, for example, that Nighthawk is a clone of Batman (for all intents and purposes). Well, more specifically, Batman-lite.

It is just not acceptable to me to make Batman himself weaker, slower, and clumsier than Nighthawk. I say again... gamewise the Superheroic genre ignores NCM for a reason.

There are no normal humans and 30 is maximum human potential in the Superheroic genre. Base your arguments off that.

Originally posted by Gary

I personally think Cap should have 30 dex with about 3-4 general combat CSL' and 3-4 HTH CSL's. That is how he is portrayed in the comics, although the skill levels are horribly inefficient.

 

As a side note, 15 Dex costs only 30 pts not 45 after you factor in the savings from speed.

Agreed.

Re: Re: I'll Try The Quote Function This Time.

Originally posted by tesuji

Lucius, I am honestly perplexed as to why you contiue to act like your opinion of "me" is relevent?

Can we perhaps start a thread titled 'what we think about tesuji" so that those who want to rant about me can do so and the ones who want to discuss gaming can avoid this?

snip..

Well, FWIW, I was trying to play moderator because I want the thread to continue. Certain posters stand out to different people. You are one of a dozen or so that stand out to me because of your insight. Based off of the posts I have read of yours (not just here) I feel you also can be condescending. I did not intend to add to the continuation of a "Let's get tesuji" thread and I could care less if you 'insult' HERO. I have seen others respond with annoyance or anger at your posts. You seem to be convinced that its 'what' you are saying. I feel it is 'how' you are saying it.

You respond with basically 'so what?, the thread isn't about ME'. However, you apparently post here because you want your opinions known. I was merely offering 'advice' on perhaps why some people react badly to your opinions. Basically, your opinions will have less and less meaning if you gain a rep as a 'bad egg'. I've seen it happen twice in the last 6 months over in the Non-gaming forums where brilliant people pissed others off to point where ANYTHING they posted was just scoffed at by many others. One decided to leave altogether over it. I'll offer an example: say I have a brilliant college professor. If said professor constantly screamed his teachings right to my face day after day, then pretty soon I could care less what he said.

I don't know about the others here, but that was the point of my post. I had no intention of attacking, just a friendly reminder that how you say something can be as important as what you say. It is also reason enough to (briefly) go off topic in my opinion.

That probably sounded like a lecture, I just didn't know how else to say it. Feel free to discard at your leisure, I won't disrupt the debate again.

Re: I'll Try The Quote Function This Time.

Originally posted by Lucius

When he is gratuitously insulting and deliberately exasperating, any points he has to make become moot in any case - who wants to put up with this sh1t? Nothing he has to say is worth the annoyance of reading his posts.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

It's enough to give a palindromedary a headache. Both heads.

I've followed many of tesuji's posts here and in the General Roleplaying Forum. I don't see any deliberate harm in his posts. I do believe there is an inadvertant condescension in the way he writes. Basically, he talks down to people. I don't think he knows he does it though. Perhaps that is what you (and others who've responded similar to you) find annoying.

However, the reason I've 'followed his posts' is because I believe they are very insightful, detailed, and well thought out. He has a unique and clever way of viewing things. I think his advice should be heeded.

Originally posted by Nucleon

Why is 12-20 levels unrealistic extreme? It is surhuman training, of course, but is it a more unrealistic extreme than a 38 DEX? For Cap? (No offense Gary; I know you don't think it neither.)

In my opinion, yes. However, you were the one who offered the 38 DEX Cap. I wouldn't use 38 Dex Cap either, but I think it FAR less unrealistic than a character with an average of 16 CSLs.

Originally posted by Nucleon

Well, that sounded quite childish actually. It seems I cannot convince you that substitutes to DEX can be used to tailor-cut your character more to your liking, while keeping to the concept. Ah well.

 

Let us conclude on my side with that; The Bonuses you can get from a high DEX (or STR, or CON) are only useful to some point, where they then become costly luxury. Don't let the DEX race impede on your concept.

-Without meaning to offend, the only thing here that I see that could be construed as 'childish' is that you naively assume nobody else has thought of the things mentioned in your first paragraph. Many other players here have up to 2 decades of experience with the system (including myself and possibly you). Most everyone 'gets' your point, but personally I think few agree with you because you have taken the use of CSLs to an unrealistic extreme. I think most see it as a balance between DEX and CSL's.

-The DEX race has never impeded on my concept or anyone I've played with. The importance stressed by concept and specific team archetype always eliminated the DEX race without having to go to extreme measures. For the record, I think use of NCM for the Superheroic genre is an extreme measure.

As with many systems, its more how the players and GM interact and work together that makes things flow effectively. When this happens you don't have system breakdowns such as a DEX race.