Pegasus40218

That's disappointing for someone like me to hear. As a player and GM, I'm personally not a fan of the Super Hero genre. I have been a fan of fantasy for more than 30 years. Conceptually, I really like the flexibility of the HERO System...the fact that a character isn't locked into some artificial forced progression of skills. Character development over the course of a campaign can be more organic -- the character can develop the skills that they find they need and use, rather than simply having to live with a limited set of options...But, it sounds like we (fans of the fantasy genre) can only expect limited support as far as product goes.

While I really like the idea of a 200-page generic system reference with supplements for the various genres, I'm having a hard time envisioning it...particularly considering the two "core" 6E books weigh in at around 750 pages and (while leaning heavily in the supers direction) aren't really genre-specific. While there is certainly material that can be cut to reduce page count, I'm not sure you're going to get there without splitting the "Powers" section out into a separate supplement. And is that what you really want to do, given that powers, and the ability to build pretty much anything with them, IS pretty much the heart of the system?

I'd like to caution against short-changing examples. My weekly gaming group is currently playing Pathfinder. In many instances, the "rules" aren't particularly clearly written, and it's the accompanying example that is referred to find clarity. Of course...the rules could have just been written better in the first place... Of course, my situation, while hardly unique, involves a group of 6 gamers, 3-4 of which are rules lawyers (who constantly argue with each other about rules interpretations )...

Definitely agree on the "concise writing skills". Since I have a tendency to read every game system book I purchase cover-to-cover at least once (first pass is mainly to get a feel for the overall material, then I'll go back to try to pick up the nitty gritty details), I greatly appreciate the idea of being concise...and many of the HERO System books can be described as "verbose". To put it another way: I studied Engineering. I don't care much about "theory". Tell me how it works and and what I need to know to actually do something useful with it.

Well...I FINALLY finished reading Champions Complete. So, here are my current thoughts on the idea of a Fantasy Hero Complete: It will be extremely difficult to pull off and have a completely satisfied base of players. I suspect that there will be too much demand for custom guidelines for too many varieties of fantasy to provide the level of detail desired in a single book. One player / GM may want guidelines for running a sword & sorcery / Conan-esque type game (stat limits, CV limits, templates, etc). Another player or GM is going to want guidelines on how to set up and run low-fantasy. Another player / GM is going to want a magic-rare epic fantasy (similar to the Tolkien's Middle Earth). The next guy is going to want D&D/Pathfinder equivalent high-fantasy, and so-on. Pretty soon, you'll have nothing but a book of templates and guidelines...and I'm not sure what sort of value a book like that would have. I guess the question I have is this: what is the goal of this book? What needs is it intended to address? What I suspect was being considered is largely re-printing Champions Complete, but changing/adding a few sections such that they fit the fantasy genre a little better. While you might get a few new players to pick up such a book, my personal opinion is that what is needed is more of a GM's guide for fantasy. As someone who's been gaming for 30 years, I can say that in my limited experience with HERO, it's not a big problem for the players to work with the materials available. My challenge has been how to set reasonable limits on characters that can still be fun to play without winding up with radically unbalanced characters -- and learning to recognize what abilities / combinations of abilities will result in an unbalanced character. Fantasy Hero makes a number of suggestions about imposing limits, but doesn't explain them in sufficient detail or provide concrete examples with an explanation of what effects the limits imposed would have on a game. Anyway, I know what I would be looking for in an additional Fantasy Hero supplement, and I can't honestly say that something akin to Champions Complete would be it. I think time and money spent developing/expanding multiple campaign settings would be better. In my own case, I may have found a supplement that details a setting and mechanics that are very close to the type of game I'd like to run: "The Last Dominon: Echoes of Glory". I've skimmed through it, and it looks very promising (though it references additional books and materials that I have not been able to locate -- and the publisher's website seems to no longer exist).

Since a lot of this thread refers to whether something similar to "Champions Complete" should be done for Fantasy Hero, I finally broke down and bought "Champions Complete" so I'll have a better frame of reference to work from. I'll provide additional feedback when I'm done reading it.

What I envisioned for the cards would be a card size comparable to any other trade-able card games out there, with one noteable difference: the cards wouldn't all have a common "backer" side. One side of the card would be a character illustration, the other would have a basic (stripped down) stat block. Again, the cards "map" to full character sheets, so it wouldn't be necessary to pack everything onto the card -- just enough of the stats and powers to pique a players interest and convince them to seek out the full character sheets and give the game a try.

I agree to a point...but the best way to get people to play a new game is to GET THEM TO PLAY A NEW GAME. What that means is going into environments where the gamers are and letting them get hands-on with the system. You've got to find good people to run games using the system at the various gaming conventions and even at local gaming stores that provide gaming tables. I went to Gen-Con in Indianapolis a few years ago, really hoping to get an opportunity to play in a couple of HERO system games with people who really knew and loved the system and could explain the ins and outs to me, so I could take that knowledge back to my gaming group and get my group started with the system. Unfortunately, I only found 1 reference to HERO game, and that was for the first night of the convention (Thursday night), which I was unable to attend because I had to work and could only come up on the weekend (Friday night through Sunday). Outside of that one game, there was HERO was represented by a booth selling the books. There may have been other HERO games being run/played there...but, I wasn't able to find them. The point of all this is that if you want more people to play the game, you need to take advantage of every opportunity to enable people to play the game. I'd almost say the best scenario would be 3-person teams to run the game: 1 GM and two "plant" players who understand the mechanics, role-play well, and are willing to help explain the system to neophytes to help "get the mechanics out of the way". (Assuming the game would be run for 6 to 8 total players.) Another interesting idea for gaming conventions: Create a bunch of pre-generated characters, print them out (no dups), and just give them away to anyone who wants them (or have them included in the typical bag o' goodies)...Then have a couple of people at the convention ready to run some sort of "pick-up" games for HERO in the various gaming rooms. Since character creation tends to be the most time-consuming part of the system -- particularly for new players -- you've eliminated that hurdle to getting started with the game. There will be challenges to this approach (consistency of power level, what type of adventure to run, whether the characters are supers, fantasy, sci-fi, etc.); but not necessarily insurmountable. Another option would be to do more of a tradeable card thing...do a higher-quality card run with a depiction of the character, a basic stat-block, etc; but have each card map to a full character sheet that the people running the "pick-up" games would be able to provide. The cards could be tradeable (collect the complete set!) and would help generate interest in the system... ...but, I'm just thinking out loud at this point...

Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product I largely agree with these points. The caveat to the first point is that the GM's section of the material needs to provide the fledgling GM with some guidance on how to maintain game balance -- which is alluded to in your point about providing a specific power level and providing guidance on what is "reasonable" for the characteristics. In the games I have attempted to run (as a GM who is relatively new to HERO), the problem for me has been with OCV and DCV. At least 2 of my 5 players are prototypical power gamers, and they quickly figured out that one point of extra SPD (bumped up to 4 instead of 3) makes a HUGE difference in combat...and I didn't know enough about the impact/implications to say "No!". Couple that with min-maxed OCV, DCV, and enough REC to go "all out" for the entire turn and get all spent END back with a single post-segment 12 recovery, and you've got a bit of a problem. BODY can also be a problem for new players. Coming from other systems, they see BODY as "hit points", and, of course, more is better. If you're not careful, you quickly find yourself dealing with characters in what was supposed to be a low-fantasy game who play more like the cast of "Hawk the Slayer" and have more BODY than your typical whale.

Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product As someone with a gaming group that I'm trying to get to take up HERO as our primary fantasy RPG, having two "base" magic systems offers familiarity (particularly if one is for "arcane" magic and the other is for "divine" magic). I think even presenting up to four magic systems for characters to choose from (justified with background from the sample setting as opposed to simply focusing on the system mechanics) would probably be manageable. Much more than that will likely be challenging to the fledgling GM (such as myself) as well as the players. Presenting options for toolkitting and customizing the system in the GM's section of the material (as someone else suggested earlier) is something I can see working.

Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product Looking at the HERO System Grimoire, I think the presentation is largely fine. I'll disagree with you that it's a good idea to have the spell description in one section and the detailed builds in another section. If you're going to have the content, have it all in one place. It will be better in the long run to have information that a starting player can ignore if they choose to, than require the slightly more experienced player to have to flip back and forth to different sections of the book to find information about a single spell.

Re: aggrovated over flash/Blindness

Re: Dagger, Obviously Missing something here.

Re: Humanoids not in charge? Hmmm...Was Congress the inspiration for this setting?

Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product The list provided on pages 174-180 of the 6E Fantasy HERO product are a good start for basic equipment. What would be useful would be some explanation at how the prices were arrived at. Is it related to the Character Point [Active or Real cost] necessary to build the effect? Is it based upon historical research as to what the relative cost of such items were in the real world? If you started adding powers/improvements (appart from low/high quality as discussed in the Equipment section of the book) how does the price increase? These things would allow gamemasters to expand the equipment lists and still keep prices consistent. Now, I'm not a huge fan of the idea of buying and selling magic items in a fantasy game; but, most fantasy games have so much magic that it is another commodity that is simply bought and sold...So the system needs to be able to account for that. I was also thinking about something along the lines of the 5th Edition HERO System Equipment Guide (which didn't include any sort of relative prices except for Modern equipment).

Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product A couple of things that might help on the fantasy front: - I tend to agree with whoever posted it that with the juggernaut of the genre (D&D) in disarray, there's an opportunity to gain significant market share at this time. - I also agree with the poster (I believe it was Mallet) who recommended establishing a base Fantasy HERO power level. I'd recommend establishing that base at the low end of the power scale because I believe it's easier to add features / power to a game than it is to figure out how to scale things back. - This may be a bit of nostalgia on my part, but I tend to lean AWAY from the idea of an all-in-one product. Look at how AD&D built its base: a relatively small Player's Handbook, a separate Gamemaster's Guide, and a bestiary. The Player's Handbook contained everything the players needed to know to create characters, including a relatively extensive list of spells. The Gamemaster's Guide had all of the information necessary to run the game, including a relatively extensive list of magic items and suggestions for other treasures. The bestiary provided access to statistics for the fundamental foes of fantasy (orcs, dragons, demons, devils, etc). From there, they started by providing pre-packaged adventures and eventually expanded into full campaign settings. Early in gaming, most campaigns were "immature" and weren't set in a specific setting (or the setting wasn't all that significant). Players could enjoy simply going through various adventures. So, in summary, if I were trying to build the Fantasy HERO player base, I might look at putting together a player's guide that only contained the rules establishing basic power-level guidelines and rules for character creation. Then I'd put together a gamemaster's guide to provide GMs with the guidance necessary to run the game mechanics, how to scale the system UP to higher power levels, and maybe encapsulate some of the combined wisdom and experience from the forums on what works well and what doesn't. The bestiary already provided largely meets the needs of a basic Fantasy HERO game, and additional bestiaries could be created (perhaps even creating additional setting-specific bestiary supplements). - As for the distribution issues, I don't know the details of the implications of Kickstarter vs. internal funding, but I can say that the ubiquitousness of e-book readers these days should not be ignored. In addition to making the products available on Amazon, I'd seriously look at putting together Kindle editions of the material. Providing the books on Kindle generally implies a slightly lower price point, lowering the cost of entry for any players who are "curious", but not willing to make a $40+ investment without knowing whether or not they'll even be able to use the system. For those players, the reputation (deserved or not) of HERO as a "complicated" system is often enough to deter them from making that initial investment...and I recommend the Kindle format (as opposed to just making PDFs available on the website) because the e-book reader's I've seen and used are terrible and handling PDFs (as far as navigating, searching, and managing multiple bookmarks).

Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product 1. The players. Seriously, the type of gamer who is drawn to a system like HERO is a different breed from your typical D&Der or Pathfinder player. My weekly gaming group typically plays some version of AD&D or Pathfinder, and the players are almost always focused on one thing: min-maxing everything. Unfortunately, many of the "canned" adventures pretty much expect or encourage this by making some of the challenges pretty much impossible if you don't min-max. As a result, things are focused more on game mechanics than story and character development. Juxtapose this with my previous gaming group (which is currently playing Fantasy HERO, unfortunately on a night that I cannot attend), and you'll find the players far more focused on developing skills and abilities that "make sense" for the character or current story rather than simply trying to get the most "bang for the buck" out of every point. HERO players also tend to understand the value and interest of disadvantages and weaknesses, whereas your typical D&Der will attempt to develop their character into an invulnerable mop-monster as quickly as possible...And if that's what they and their gamemasters enjoy, more power to them. It's just not a style of play I find entertaining for long. 2. As other people have mentioned, the flexibility to literally do ANYTHING is one of the great strengths of the HERO System. You can create a "character" and then let his abilities evolve organically as the story progresses, rather than being locked into a rigid schedule of progression based upon choices that you made before the actual game even started. Unfortunately, for newcomers to the system, this flexibility is also one of the great barriers to getting started (successfully) with the system. It can sometimes be extremely difficult to figure out whether a player's build is "unbalancing", particularly for someone new to HERO. Add to that the sheer number of options available, and the system can SEEM quite daunting. 3. Simplicity and consistency of the basic mechanic. The same basic mechanic is used for just about everything. This helps simplify the learning curve. I'm a longtime gamer (started gaming in 1981) and I've played a wide variety of systems and can enjoy a well-run game in just about any system. I've tried introducing my current gaming group to Fantasy HERO, without much success (my struggles have been somewhat chronicled on other threads). There are a couple of issues that have proven difficult to deal with as someone without a lot of HERO System experience trying to run a game for an inexperienced group of HERO players. I'll outline a few of those issues here: 1) Overcoming a "level-based" mentality as a game master. In most systems, the characters start off relatively weak and become significantly more powerful as they gain "levels". In my opinion, to run a successful HERO campaign, you have to forget the notion that the characters will start off weak and become stronger. For example, in D&D, a single orc can be a threat one-on-one for a PC. In a typical HERO game, the PC is going to mop a typical (straight from the bestiary) orc without breaking a sweat. I think the concept is that the characters START OUT as "HEROES", rather than developing into "heroes"...That mental shift alone can be somewhat challenging to make. 2) Trying to figure out what is and is not "balanced" in gaming terms. While the basic mechanic is fairly simple, it can be difficult to guage just how much impact an extra point of OCV, DCV, rPD or rED will have on the game. Again, the tendency of players from other systems to min-max makes it difficult for a new GM to figure out where to set the limits necessary to get the "feel" he's looking for. The other part of this is that you have to take multiple factors into account when attempting to gauge balance. Consider combat. In a typical D&D game it's a fairly straight-forward proposition to determine how easily any given PC will be able to "hit" an opponent. The same is true in HERO. However, unlike D&D, where pretty much EVERY hit is going to inflict some damage (which is also relatively simple to guage, even with damage reduction), it can be somewhat more challenging to figure out what a typical "hit" will do in HERO. It's not quite as easy to gauge how much actual damage a character can dish out in HERO. You have two different types of damage (STUN and BODY), two different types of defenses (standard and resistant), you have to be concerned about whether an attack is (or can be made) armor piercing; whether or not the target has any sort of damage reduction, etc. It can be a lot to consider for someone new to the system.

Re: 6E - Low Fantasy Hero - Game Balance Issues - Advice Requested

Re: 6E - Low Fantasy Hero - Game Balance Issues - Advice Requested Wouldn't you know it...one of the few I haven't picked up yet. I do have "The Valdorian Age" which you referenced, but it didn't quite have the feel I was looking for -- but I'll go back and give it another look. I also picked up "Kamarathin: Kingdom of Tursh" at GenCon last year. My impression is that it's OK, though it's written for HS5e. I have held off on picking up "The Turakian Age" so far because it's obviously high-fantasy, which is not what I was looking for. Perhaps I should explain that...Over 30 years of gaming, even with good role-players, under most systems I've played, I've watched the campaigns slowly devolve into "how's the spell-caster(s) going to deal with (x)." If you weren't a spellcaster, by the end of the campaign, you were pretty much a side-kick. I wanted to avoid that, and HERO looks like a system that, with appropriate limits on spellcasters (e.g. low-fantasy) could easily accomplish that WITHOUT making spellcasters significantly weaker than their counterparts. I basically wanted the spellcasters to stay in-line with the pure warriors and rogues as far as raw combat effectiveness -- they just might have a few more options with their spells. I'll have to give Tuala Morn a look. I'll let you know what I think.

Re: 6E - Low Fantasy Hero - Game Balance Issues - Advice Requested Thanks to everyone for their input. Many good suggestions and observations. Christopher, you are correct: I and most of my players have very different play styles. When I'm not GMing, we typically play Pathfinder or D&D4e. I create backgrounds for all of my characters, even though they won't matter since they're running canned "adventure paths". One other player will typically come up with at least the outlines of some background. The others tend to plan out every skill point, feat, power, and spell they're going to pick from 1st level through 20th level. I, instead, wait to see how the campaign develops, and choose skills and abilities that make sense for the character, or to fill gaps in party capabilities (I often end up playing the characters with healing abilities, since they tend to not be as powerful in combat). I've been gaming for over 30 years (I started when I was 10), and I guess I've been relatively fortunate with the gaming groups I've played in over the years. There have been some fantastic campaigns...and I've found that the quality of the campaign depended less on the talent/skill of the GM (though it's definitely a factor) than the quality of the players. Great players can carry a campaign when the GM is struggling...and the best and most memorable adventures (in my opinion) were not the ones where we completely outclassed our opponents and mopped the floor with them because we were so powerful. They were the ones where things went wrong, and we had to overcome adversity, injury, or long odds to eke out a victory, even if that victory was simply escaping with our lives. I've been reading a thread on this board where everyone is posting "quotes of the week". I started at the beginning of the thread, and I'm somewhere in the neighborhood of post #2175 (out of about 11250 -- I plan to post some of my own great quotes when I get caught up to the current posts), and there's some GREAT stuff in there. One of the things I'm trying to do with my players is give them the opportunity to have THAT kind of gaming experience. I'd love for them to think back to "that gladiator campaign", and vividly remember those characters and some of the things they accomplished and the adventures they had! I look back on the Pathfinder and D&D campaigns / adventures over the past couple of years, and I can remember a couple of the characters that I've created and played, very few of the other characters, and very little of what we did (and I take notes during play to keep track of the NPCs and events so I know what's going on in the story). Tasha, The "generic gladiator" you provided is VERY helpful, and at a glance looks to be about the power level I was hoping for in the campaign. One thing I've noticed, at least among the players in my group is that they NEVER take anything but 2 or 3-point CSLs. I think this stems from the fact that 99.9% of the time, a character is going to have their weapon of choice available, so why spend the extra 2 points on a 5-point CSL when you'll hardly ever have call to use it? And a 10-point CSL? Forget it! With the min/max mentality, that's going to be a hard sell at best...and that's not a criticism of the build you provided! That's simply where my current expectations of my players are. Also, I just noticed the link you had at the bottom of at least one of your previous posts: "How to Build Hero System Characters and Evaluate their Powerlevels". WHAT A GODSEND!!! I wish I had seen this sooner! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! (bookmarked the blog page) Gojira, I agree completely: the complications are a big part of what makes HERO characters interesting (and what seems to be lacking in so many other game systems). It also usually tends to be a big part of a character's background. Without trying to be overly critical of HERO 6E, as someone trying to learn the system, the one thing I have found disappointing is the lack of guidance in the way of "hard numbers" for different types of games / genres. The main books recommend implementing "effectiveness caps" but don't provide any real information on what that might look like nor any guidance on how to evaluate characters to ensure that they adhere to those caps. I've purchased most of the genre books, and read every one of them from cover-to-cover hoping to glean enough information on how to pull off the campaign I'm trying to run; but obviously, I've been coming up short (at least of my own expectations). If someone could pull together a book/pdf of play-tested systems with guidance for setting up the effectiveness caps for various genres to help us noobs, I can guarantee at least one sale...and it would probably also make the system more accessible to gamers who are more familiar with more "fixed" (level-based) systems. It wouldn't have to go into great detail about a particular genre...maybe even simply providing 1 or 2 "generic" characters (like Tasha's gladiator) would be enough in some instances. Most useful would be guidance on how to evaluate the characters that the players create to make sure that they're "balanced" under each genre/system and at least some of the "gotcha"s to look for. (Like combining shields with martial arts / martial block which NuSoardGraphite referenced -- the type of thing a beginning GM is very likely to miss.

Re: 6E - Low Fantasy Hero - Game Balance Issues - Advice Requested I appreciate the responses so far. A couple of points: 1) The gladiator campaign was the idea of the players. I merely indicated that I wanted to run a low-fantasy (low-magic) campaign and they decided that the gladiator campaign sounded the most interesting. Of course, now that they're all gladiators, all but one of them is focused on trying to escape...but, I'm OK with that, as long as I have some kind of material to work with to develop interesting and fun stories. 2) Yes, I (and my players) are relatively new to HERO. I played in one Champions campaign back in 1994 (4th edition), and I started picking up 6th edition last year. This is our third attempt to start a campaign. Attempt #1 imploded when the players created characters who came to hate each other (within the first 4 game sessions) and then tried to kill each other. Game #2, we went with 400 point supers; and with the exception of one player, everyone simply used the templates out of the "Champions Powers" book -- which I found disappointing simply because they made no attempt to be creative. We had a cookie-cutter brick, cookie-cutter speedster, cookie-cutter Energy Projector, etc. In each and every game, I practically had to FORCE them to take any sort of skills / perks / complications (including this one). For the most part, these players have almost always focused exclusively on maximizing combat capabilities, often to the exclusion of everything else. In other systems, using "canned" adventures where the character backgrounds don't matter, it's pretty much expected. I've grown tired of the adventures pretty much devolving to simply moving from one combat to the next with little more than a brief rest in between. 3) In my reference to the PCs fighting a greater dragon, I noted that the PCs would lose that fight because of the dragon's superior defenses. I also indicated that it would take longer than it should, but to keep the discussion in context, I DID indicate that I was referring to HTH only (no powers, breath weapon, etc -- simply HTH attacks). To put this in perspective (for anyone who doesn't have the Bestiary, a Greater Dragon has an OCV 7, DCV 7, +2 Overall Skill Levels, +4 w/All Combat. Of course, because of its size, the PCs would be at +8 OCV to hit it...so they will pretty much constantly hit it, but do little to no damage (which is why they would lose). 4) From the beginning of the campaign, one of the things I explained (repeatedly) to the players is that I wanted a low-powered game, particularly at the start. I wanted the PCs to have plenty of room to grow and develop into "badasses"; but I didn't want them to start with the ability to mop pretty much anything straight out of the gate. If they're on an espionage / stealth based mission, and run across a guard patrol, I didn't want their first instinct to be to simply wipe the floor with the guards because they can (which is typically what this group does -- combat is the resolution to almost every problem). I wanted them to at least have some hesitation because a trained guard COULD be a significant threat. My reference to Orcs earlier was probably a poor choice. Compare these PCs to ogres (OCV 4, DCV 4, 11PD (2rPD), 8ED (2rED), no CSLs). We did mock combats during character creation where they fought an equal number of ogres -- the fight wasn't even close. I think one PC got knocked out, the others suffered little or no damage (the ogres could only hit a couple of the characters on a 6 or less)...So, ogres aren't even a threat (and applying the characteristic maxima for humans, a "stock" ogre is built on 150 points [13 points over the listing in the bestiary -- 10 for strength and 3 for CON]). Quite honestly, one of my motivations for wanting to limit the PCs starting power-level is simple: the time I have to prepare for games. I typically work between 50-60 hours per week, and my life would be much simpler if I could pull some creatures from the bestiary without having to modify the snot out of them to make them a challenge. Tasha, you recommended figuring out what the average OCV, DCV, DC and DEF are. My question: average for what? The PCs? Their opponents? One of the things I've struggled with is this: being new to the system, I have no sense of what's "good", "bad", or "outrageous". Our first attempt at the gladiator campaign, the PCs were built on 175 points. 4 of the PCs had OCVs and DCVs of 8 or higher. Add in CSLs, and I had characters capable of jacking up their OCV or DCV into the 13 to 15 range. The players also built stats and skills to maximize DCs at the same time; so there wasn't a balance between a character who could hit often, doing a little damage; or a bruiser who maybe didn't hit as often but did more damage. It was pretty much, hit all the time, clobber the snot out of the target, and have such a high DCV that they'd never get hit in return. Of course, being relatively new, I didn't recognize the significance of some of the stats (or the influence of the CSLs) until we started trying to play...but when a party of starting characters wipe out an equal number of ogres in a single turn (12 seconds); I start thinking it's going to be difficult to run a gritty and challenging game. Now, being new to GMing HERO, there may be a lot of opportunities that I'm missing. I've been reading one of the other threads (I believe it's entitled "Ars Tactica") about combat tactics in HERO, so I can get a better understanding of how to best take advantage of various combat maneuvers and such, and I have picked up a few tricks...but then, as I mentioned earlier, I'm trying to keep the game from devolving into simply meadering from one combat to the next. Some DMs would approach this by running a game that required them to constantly use skills that they either don't have or aren't good at. I don't think that would be any fun either; neither for me nor my players. I'm seriously struggling to find the balance that I'm looking for.

Re: 6E - Low Fantasy Hero - Game Balance Issues - Advice Requested To try to put some of my struggles into context, I've decided to post some examples of the characters that my players have created. (I have the characters in Hero Designer, so I'm giving stats and such the HD does)...Keep in mind, this is at the start of a "Gladiator" campaign (low-powered low-fantasy, limited magic) -- most of the PCs have just been captured and sold to a lanista (master of gladiators). I'm also going to only list the skills they spent points on, not the free "everyman" skills they were given. Also, keep in mind: these are 125 point characters. Character #1: A character from a culture similar to the Spartan culture of ancient Greece. STR: 18 DEX: 11 CON: 18 INT: 10 EGO: 13 PRE: 13 OCV: 6 DCV: 8 OMCV: 2 DMCV: 2 SPD: 3 PD: 8/10 ED: 2/4 REC: 10 END: 31 BODY: 15 STUN: 30 Skills Teamwork: 11- Tactics: 11- Navigation(land): 11- Survival(Mountain): 11- Weaponsmith(Swords and Daggers): 11- Gambling(Card Games): 11- Fast Draw: 11- Tracking: 11- Survival(Temperate/Subtropical): 11- Animal Handler(Equines): 12- Riding: 11- KS (Gladiators): 11- Language (Doethi): Fluent Conversation WF: Polearms and Spears WF: Bows WF: Blades +2 OCV w/Longsword +2 OCV w/Longbow Complications (25) Social Comp: Slave (VF, Severe) (5) Social Comp: Fights over insults about home (IF, Minor) (5) Social Comp: Fights over abuse of animals (IF, Minor) (5) Social Comp: Fights over loyalty to fellow soldiers (IF, Minor) (10) Psych Comp: Fear of heights (Uncommon, Strong) (15) Social Comp: Fight to the death for country (IF, severe) (15) Social Comp: Fight to the death for family (IF, severe) (5) Social Comp: Fight for females (IF, minor) Character #2: Modeled after a Mongol warrior STR: 13 DEX: 15 CON: 13 INT: 13 EGO: 10 PRE: 13 OCV: 5 DCV: 6 OMCV: 3 DMCV: 3 SPD: 3 PD: 6/8 ED: 2/4 REC: 8 END: 40 BODY: 14 STUN: 30 Skills Acrobatics: 10- Analyze (Fighting Styles/Tactics/Combat): 10- Animal Handler(Equines): 12- Breakfall: 8- Combat Driving (Equines): 10- Concealment: 10- Contortionist: 10- Gambling (Dice Games): 12- KS (Arenas): 11- KS (Famous Gladiators): 11- Language (Doethi): Basic Conversation Lockpicking: 8- Navigation (land): 12- Riding: 10- Stealth: 10- Survival (Arctic/Subarctic Plains, Temperate/Subtropical Plains): 12- Teamwork: 10- Tracking: 8- +3 (3pt) CSLs with Javelins +3 PSL to offset range penalties with bows Perks: Contact: Lanista (contact has useful skills or resources): 8- Complications: (20) Social Complication: Slave (VF, Major) (5) Psych Comp: Fear of Supernatural Manifestations (uncommon, moderate) (5) Psych Comp: Fights for freedom (uncommon, moderate) (5) Psych Comp: Fights for Friends (uncommon, moderate) (5) Psych Comp: Willing to die to free his people (uncommon, total) Character #3: A bare-knuckle pit fighter STR: 18 DEX: 10 CON: 18 INT: 10 EGO: 10 PRE: 10 OCV: 6 DCV: 6 OMCV: 3 DMCV: 3 SPD: 3 PD: 8 ED: 2 REC: 8 END: 30 BODY: 20 STUN: 40 Skills: CK (Home City): 12- KS (Arenas): 11- KS(Famous Gladiators): 11- PS(Criminal): 11- WF: Dagger WF: Gladius Martial Arts (Ancient Boxing): Punch (Basic Strike); Jab (Custom Maneuver); Block (Custom Maneuver) (4) Unarmed +2 with any single attack Perks: Combat Luck (5) Contact: Viaticus, the Money Lender (Contact has useful skills or resources, significant contacts of his own, good relationship): 11- (5) Contact: Lanista (Contact has access to major institutions, significant contacts of his own, very useful skills or resources): 11- Complications: (25) Gladiator/Slave (VF, Severe) (15) Fear of spiders (common, strong) (10) Rivalry: Professional, As Powerful, Seeks to harm or kill, aware of rivalry Note: This is the only player who has given me any sort of background material to work with. The others have just referenced broad cultural archetypes (if that). Character #4: A kobald (sic) warrior STR: 13 DEX: 16 CON: 13 INT: 10 EGO: 10 PRE: 13 OCV: 3 DCV: 3 OMCV: 3 DMCV: 3 SPD: 4 PD: 6 ED: 4 REC: 6 END: 24 BODY: 10 STUN: 25 Skills Acrobatics: 12- Acting: 12- Breakfall: 12- Defense Maneuver 1-2 Sleight of Hand: 8- Teamwork: 12- Two-Weapon Fighting (HTH multiple attacks only) WF: Small Axe WF: Short Spear Martial Arts: (5) Defensive Strike; (4) Martial Dodge; (1) Weapon Element - Small Axe +2 (3pt) CSLs w/Martial Arts Perks: Combat Luck Off-hand defense (2) Contact: Lanista: Contact has useful skills or resources Powers: (7): Shrinking (1 m tall, 12.5 KG mass, -2 PER rolls to perceive character, +2 DCV); persistent, 0 END, Always On (5): Scales (Resistant protection 1 rPD/1rED) plus +1 PD plus +1 ED (6): Amphibious: swimming +2m (10m total), plus Underwater Breathing (Expanded Breathing) Complications (10) Dependent NPC (a fellow kobald); Infrequently, normal (5) Rivalry: Professional(Kobald slave, as powerful, seek to outdo, embarrass, or humiliate, rival is aware of rivalry) (10) Psych Comp: Fear of Horses (common, moderate) (20) Distinctive features - Kobald (not concealable, extreme reaction, detectable by common senses, not distinctive in some cultures) (25) Social Comp - Slave (VF, Severe) (10) Psych Comp - Fear of dying a useless death (common, moderate) (15) Psych Comp - Code vs. Killing (will not intentionally kill during arena fights): Uncommon, Total Character #5: A doctor from an enlightened Greek (Athenian) culture STR: 15 DEX: 13 CON: 10 INT: 18 EGO: 13 PRE: 18 OCV: 4 DCV: 3 OMCV: 3 DMCV: 3 SPD: 2 PD: 6 ED: 6 REC: 7 END: 19 BODY: 11 STUN: 30 Skills Literacy (native language) Language (Doethi): Fluent Conversation, Literate Paramedics: 13- PS (Healer): 13- KS (Healing): 13- KS (Herbalism): 13- KS (Alchemy): 13- SS (Chemistry): 13- Power (Alchemy): 13- Inventor (Alchemical Research): 13- Bureaucratics: 13- Teamwork: 10- Cryptography: 13- Survival (Temperate/Subtropical): 13- Navigation(land): 8- KS (General History): 8- Oratory: 8- Trading: 8- KS (Mathematics): 8- TF: Equines WF: Short sword WF: dagger WF: Short Bow +2 (3pt) CSLs with Short Sword +4 (2pt) CSLs with Shield only to block. Perks (2) Contact: Lanista: has useful skills or resources (2) Social rank (lower nobility) (3) Ambidexterity (no off-hand penalty) Powers (Alchemical Formulas) Potion of Minor Stamina (Healing END 1d6) Potion of Water Breathing Potion of Minor Healing (Healing BODY 1d6) Complications (25) Social Comp: Slave (VF, Severe) (5) Psych Comp: Fear of drowning (uncommon, moderate) (15) Psych comp: fight to the death to protect home city (10) Psych comp: fight to protect patients (10) Psych comp: fight to protect other healers (10) Psych comp: fight to protect children Now, many of you are probably looking at all of the psychological / social complications...Those all pretty much came from an exercise I took the players through during character creation. In an effort to add some depth to the characters, I asked them to come up with 3 things that their characters would be willing to fight for/over, and 1 thing that they'd be willing to die for. I suggested that these things COULD become complications. Now, several of the characters took extra complications (beyond the 50 points) required. Don't get me wrong: the characters are not ALL bad. There are some potentially good story lines to be developed, if I could only get some additional backgroun information from most of the players. I also feel like they're WAY too combat-oriented for 125-point characters. To some extent, I don't blame the players -- we're all new to HERO, and it's somewhat difficult to gauge the "toughness" and "power" of a character compared to some "typical" opponents. Certainly, I'd like the heroes to be slightly tougher than say, a typical orc or goblin, but, I don't want the odds to be stacked so heavily in favor of the PCs that we might as well not bother to get out the dice. As it is, these characters could take on a greater dragon (in HTH only)...they'd lose (because the dragon's defenses - PD, ED, rPD, rED - are high enough that they'd be able to inflict relatively little damage...but the fight would take FAR longer than it should. There are even greater demons that this group of characters would be a challenge for.

Re: Guide Lines for Campaigns Getting back to the original question...I'm also new to the system, and posted a similar request for advice on how to deal with some of the issues I encountered (and continue to encounter). You might find that thread useful as well. It can be found here: http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/90001-6E-Low-Fantasy-Hero-Game-Balance-Issues-Advice-Requested My gaming group come from a D&D (3.5 & 4th Ed) and Pathfinder background. Typically, the GMs run "canned" modules, so character backgrounds don't really matter much as far as the adventure/story is concerned. Since the main thing that matters in those games is the combat, that's where the group's focus tends to be. Add to that a lack of familiarity with the Hero System (both on their part and my own -- prior to attempting to run this 6e campaign, I had played 1 Champions character under 4e rules back in 1994), and the players (and myself) lacked any sense of scope/scale/context as far as determining what might be "too high" for things like OCV, DCV, etc. As a result, I now have 125-point fantasy hero characters who have a base OCV and DCV of 5 or 6. To put that into some semblance of context, a Greater Dragon in the bestiary has a base OCV of 7. Now add 3 or 4 CSLs (typically 3-point CSLs) and martial arts (in at least a couple of cases) and you've got a nightmare on your hands. (Assuming you want to run challenging and entertaining combats. If you want every fight to be a foregone conclusion, this is no big deal.)