randian

Do sense modifiers purchased specifically for Clairsentience cost end, as Clairsentience itself does?

As Special Powers, must said modifiers be purchased outside of any Framework containing Clairsentience itself?

Am I correct in deducing that Clairsentience is not a member of any of the Sense Groups to which it applies?

Re: Is the pricing for Telescopic Sense wrong?

I'd approach it by thinking about whether it's reasonable for you to be able to see the object (flea' date=' or whatever) at 8m range.[/quote']

Assuming you have deemed it unreasonable to see the flea unaided, what in your mind would let me see it? Fleas are small. Microscopic? It's not mechanically limited to 0m range like a real microscope is. Since you'd probably let me see that flea at 1m range unaided (otherwise it would be impossible to inspect a pet for fleas), might I might be suffering an extra-harsh range mod penalty (-1/1m?) to which Telescopic applies? If I had +4 Telescopic I could then see the flea out to 5m.

Well' date=' according to the rules Nightvision is simply +4 to Normal Sight to overcome penalties due to darkness.[/quote']

Even if that's how you treat it mechanically, there's still an inconsistency. The rules text for Nightvision says "see in total darkness", while 6E2 12 equates a -4 penalty to "dark night". Total darkness, as you might experience in a cave or closed room, is not the same thing as "dark night". I would thread this needle by saying that a person with +4 Enhanced could see on a dark night as well as a normal person in full daylight, but you need actual Nightvision to see when there is no light at all.

Re: Is the pricing for Telescopic Sense wrong?

I'm pretty sure the 2km he listed in his example more than a -6 range modifier.

I'm trying to illuminate the underlying principle, which doesn't require an exact match of numbers.

Re: Is the pricing for Telescopic Sense wrong?

You'd know the dog was there' date=' but you wouldn't be able to tell what color its nose was or whether it had a flea on it. Without the Telescopic, I wouldn't even allow a roll to spot the flea itself. With Telescopic, you'd want to have the dog there to catch your attention (know where to aim your binoculars), and you might be able to see the flea.[/quote']

I am looking for fleas on a dog. They are -10 to PER, divided -6 for range and -4 to size. I have a total visual perception bonus of +10. Can I see that flea with less than +6 of that bonus in Telescopic?

You aren't going to spot a giant with your Normal Sight in pitch blackness' date=' and I don't care how damn big he is.[/quote']

I'm not sure why you think we disagree on this point. That's why I called Nightvision "all or nothing".

Must I take into account the cost of Sense Group modifiers when figuring the cost of advantages on my senses? For example, Discriminatory for the entire Sight Group is 10 points. Infrared Perception is 5 points. If I want to put an advantage on my Infrared Perception, does Infrared Perception have a 5- or 15-point base cost (or even a 10 point base cost, since Discriminatory for a single sense is 5 points) for that purpose?

Conversely, is it correct to assume that individual sense modifiers do increase the base cost of my senses for the purpose of figuring the cost of an advantage?

Do sense modifiers apply through Clairsentience? For example, if I've purchased Penetrative for my sight group, do I see through the permitted substances from the perception point of a sight-group Clairsentience?

The sentence (from 6E1 180) "This lets him see (or hear, smell, and so on) in any direction from the perception point just as if he were standing there himself" appears to imply this might be so, since if modifiers didn't work through Clairsentience it wouldn't be "as if you were standing there yourself".

Re: Is the pricing for Telescopic Sense wrong?

Just because you are incredibly alert and perceptive doesn't mean you can see a flea on a dog's nose at 2km.

From the perspective of figuring out your final PER roll at the target, it means exactly that. If "make a PER roll at -10" isn't the correct method of seeing said flea, then what is?

Just like I don't even allow a Normal Sight Perception Roll in total darkness (very dark conditions, sure, but not pitch black), even at the supposed -4 penalty, unless a character has Nightvision (note I said Normal Sight; I'm not including other Sight Group senses like Infrared Sight).

This confusion wouldn't have happened if Nightvision had been (properly IMO) modeled as a Detect, like Infrared. That aside, you aren't comparing like with like. Nightvision and Infrared are all or nothing, so you can't make up for their lack by rolling better. That's not so for Enhanced and Telescopic.

Re: Is the pricing for Telescopic Sense wrong?

You neglected to quote the part where I said I wasn't refering to RAW (that's rules as written) but to how I've seen it played.

Equally, that's not how I've seen it played.

Also, there's the whole thing of Common and Dramatic Sense. Common Sense says no human can see 100s of miles away no matter how Perceptive they are.

"Common sense" says that you should be able to demolish buildings with Tunneling, because that's what real-world tunneling would do. I am extremely wary of arguments applying any variant of "common sense" to RPG rules. "You can't see far away with a high PER roll" as a matter of "common sense" is a very, very arguable point. Plus it is, as you note, not consonant with RAW.

By the way, do you make the same "common sense" ruling for PSLs vs CSLs? Because if Enhanced Perception doesn't apply to distance vision, CSLs on OCV shouldn't apply to long-range attacks.

EDIT: Plus, as Hyper-Man already pointed out, the pricing isn't off anyway.

Hyper-Man said he thinks it may have been done to encourage specialization. That hardly implies he thinks the pricing isn't off. He may in fact believe that, but I get no sense one way or the other from what he said.

If "you should only have one Telescopic sense group" was an intentional part of the pricing model, then yes the pricing isn't off. From the perspective that PSLs (or their equivalent) should always be less expensive than CSLs, the pricing is way off.

Re: Is the pricing for Telescopic Sense wrong?

Much like no amount of Enhanced Perception will allow you to see microscopic' date=' or smaller, items, you need Microscopic for that[/quote']

That's because Microscopic is like Infrared Perception: it's not a question of bonuses or penalties, you can't see the item in question at all without a power. Telescopic is nothing like Microscopic. It's a pure bonus/penalty play.

no amount of Enhanced PER will allow you to see something 100 miles away' date=' but enough Telescopic will.[/quote']

That's not true. Hero makes no distinction between types of bonuses and penalties. Add applicable bonuses, subtract applicable penalties, make roll.

Enhanced Perception is priced thus:

1/+1 one sense

2/+1 one sense group

3/+1 all sense groups

Telescopic is priced thus:

1/+2 one sense

3/+2 one sense group

You can easily see that Telescopic for 2 sense groups is just as expensive as Enhanced Perception (6/+2) while being strictly inferior, and you'd be crazy to buy Telescopic for 3 or more sense groups. Both that and the conspicuous pricing gap in Telescopic makes me think it should have been:

1/+2 one sense

2/+2 one sense group

3/+2 all sense groups

What say you?

Re: First 6Th Ed Brick

No' date=' Perceivable is used for things like "Obviously Armored Body" and the like.[/quote']

Wouldn't that be better handled by a Complication (Distinctive Features)?

Re: Hero System Books Have Way to many Typos

I would've preferred that if Damage Resistance were removed from the game' date=' it simply be removed completely since it is redundant.[/quote']

If you read the section in "Defensive Powers" on the Resistant Defense advantage, it's obvious the Resistant Protection power could have been (and I agree should have been) completely removed with little effect. The only purpose Resistant Protection has in 6E is to allow you to buy specialty defenses at +50% cost in Power Frameworks, since Steve decided that you can't buy basic specialty defenses in Frameworks by making them Special Powers (RP is a Standard Power).

Re: Hero System Books Have Way to many Typos

Nope. You need to buy it twice.

That's not what the rules say. They say you must buy it on both your resistant and non-resistant PD, not that you must buy it twice on your resistant PD. Those are most definitely not the same thing.

Buying Resistant creates a separate Defensive Power.

So what? It has always been true that "Power X" and "Power X + Advantage Y" are separate powers. It does not then follow that buying "Advantage Z" for "Power X + Advantage Y" means you must buy "Advantage Z" on both "Power X" and "Advantage Y". Advantages are summed, never multiplied.

Re: Hero System Books Have Way to many Typos

While the book might not explicitly spell out the example of using the Resistant Advantage' date=' it does clearly state that the Hardened Advantage must be bought for both Regular and Resistant DEF, just like it was in 5E (and, it seems 4E, though I wasn't around back then).[/quote']

That doesn't mean what you think it means. It simply means that if you have 10 PD (10 points) and 10 PD, Resistant (15 points), Total PD = 20, you must buy Hardened on 20 PD (5 points).

Re: Hero System Books Have Way to many Typos

Sorry to have doubted you, it just hadn't occurred to me that this Advantage is handled differently than every other Advantage in the game.

Of course it didn't occur to you, it isn't anywhere in the rules.

Re: Hero System Books Have Way to many Typos

Okay' date=' it works like this: You buy a super-tough PC with 20 PD/ED fully resistant. To do that in HD the easy way to buy it is to sell off the base 2 PD/ED and then buy 20 PD/ED and add Resistant to it. So far, so good. However, if you want to have Hardened (or Impenetrable) defenses, you need to buy Hardened for the non-resistant PD/ED, [i']then[/i] but it for the Resistant PD/ED. So you end up applying Hardened to the core PD and ED. Then you apply Resistant to the core PD and ED. Then you need to apply Hardened again, to the Resistant Advantage, to harden it against armor piercing attacks.

HD is broken then. It has never been the case in Hero that if you buy (for example) 10 PD Resistant +1/2 Hardened +1/4 (17.5 points) that it is not proof against Armor Piercing Killing Attacks unless you also "harden" the Resistant advantage itself. HD is erroneously treating Resistant as if it were still a Power and not an Advantage.

Re: Hero System Books Have Way to many Typos

It does get a little tricky with Hardened Resistant PD and ED' date=' though. You need to apply a Naked Advantage to the Advantage....[/quote']

Why would you buy the Hardened advantage on the Resistant advantage and not directly on your defense? That's bizarre.

Is Piercing stopped by Hardened defense, as it was in 4th Edition? The APG doesn't say and I don't know if that omission was intentional.

Re: Hero System Books Have Way to many Typos

Speaking of typos and other errors:

1) Where do I report errors should I find one?

2) What's Hero's policy on periodically issuing corrected PDFs?

Re: The Classic Justice League starting members on 350 points

Hyper-Man, I have some questions about your 6E Superman and Captain Marvel writeups.

1) Why are they taking the "Always On" limitation on their Resistant Protection? As a Persistent power it neither needs nor is eligible for that limitation.

2) Why do you have Flight with Variable Advantage in a Power Pool? Unnecessary and wasteful. Seems like that should be handled the same way you did Hand Attack: "Flight, any +1 worth of advantages, 45 active, 30 real". Gets them 22m Flight rather than 15. Not huge, but nice. Or keep them at 15m and make that slot 30 active instead of 45.

3) They have slots titled "+5 Overall". Overall what?

I am amused how easy they are to take out so long as you can force them to chase you. Stay and fight and they take no stun on average from a 15d6 attack assuming DI+Negation as the two slots. Actually, that's not quite true, because low rolls don't heal you, but it's close enough. Get them to chase and since they have no movement powers outside their pools they have to switch a slot to Movement. Then they're either doing too few dice (9d6) to hurt you or taking so much damage they won't last more than half a turn against a couple of 12d6 villains. If they can hit Superman's modest 8 DCV, they're doing 11 stun per hit assuming Superman has DI as the other slot. Two phases each and Superman is done (~6 stun left and time to retreat) and could easily be unconscious with a little luck.

Re: Why would I want an Accurate AoE?

Here's another question for y'all: would you have a problem with an Accurate Cone or Line? I think the restriction on Accurate to AoE: Radius only is bizarre. I don't see how the other shapes of AoE could be abusive when paired with Accurate.

Re: Why would I want an Accurate AoE?

I've also see an AOE Accurate' date=' MegaArea, No Range attack built to simulate voodoo-style attacks that would affect someone [i']anywhere[/i] as long as the attacker has the personal effect needed to target them, without worrying about any Range Modifier.

Accurate does suffer from Range Modifier (6E1 320).

Re: Do you buy Resistant alternate defenses?

Well' date=' in 4E, Autofire 20(+2.5 because of the other advantages), Penetrating x 2, AE-1 hex, 5d6 would be 125 active points. If you put it into a gun with 250 rounds and a 14- activation roll, you could knock out Dr. D. with a good roll in one phase(his damage reduction wouldn't apply against the 5 stun per hit), and it'd only cost you 60 real points. Of course, it's precisely the kind of munchkinny thing that gave Champs a bad rep in some circles for a long time, particularly at cons, in my experience.[/quote']

To hit all 20 times you'd have to have about a 40 OCV. That's as much of an issue as the attack itself. This got worse by the huge powerup Penetrating got (not being affected by Damage Reduction), and by the bifurcation of Impenetrable from Hardened in 5E onward which encourages rock/paper/scissors one-upmanship.

Re: Why would I want an Accurate AoE?

You can' date=' but in my version you have to dive completely out of the normal area covered by the AoE to avoid the hit, which makes a 4m radius Accurate AoE a bit better than a 1m radius Accurate AoE, and a 16m radius Accurate AoE almost impossible for most characters to avoid....[/quote']

Your version? I always thought that was the standard version.

Re: Why would I want an Accurate AoE?

Ok, I get it now. This would even be useful with a mental power, since AoE mental powers target DMCV 3 rather than your actual DMCV.