randian

Re: Stacking Damage Reduction?

Say you have a character with innate Damage Reduction (75% resistant ED)' date=' then they get ahold of a laser reflective suit that has 50% resistant ED vs. lasers. How do you cover this? Do they get the highest only? Apply one than the other?[/quote']

In 6E the answer is clear: "If a character has two or more Damage Reduction powers that could apply to the same attack, he can only apply one of them (he chooses which one)". 6E1 184, last paragraph.

Re: House Rules

...and when he's unconscious' date=' he reverts to flesh form. Which is the basis of the debate.[/quote']

Not really. "Reverts to flesh form" is an example of nonpersistent defense. Nobody has any problems (mechanically) with being able to kill unconscious people in that case, though I also think shouldn't be able to ignore their BODY while doing so. The problem is killing people with persistent defenses. If you have a weakness in your defenses such that a part of your body can be targeted when unconscious you should either make your defenses and/or BODY nonpersistent or take a physical complication. Otherwise, there is no mechanical basis in Hero for having such a weakness. If Colossus doesn't revert while unconscious, you should be as helpless to kill him as you are while he's awake.

 

In a fantasy game, you should be able to kill helpless characters, but only because they're wearing "real" armor with a limitation. If they had persistent defenses without such a limitation, like an ice troll with super-hard skin or a wizard with a "force field" spell, that's defense you shouldn't be able to ignore. If you're going to run a Champions game that way, tell the players to buy all of their defenses with the Nonpersistent limitation, or have a campaign limit on how much persistent defense you can have. Since buying up BODY is the inevitable side-effect of campaign guidelines like that, you can even limit their BODY characteristic just to make sure the PCs are as vulnerable as possible.

Re: Gun-Kata or Gun-Fu, Anyone?

If your goal is to break through walls, barriers, and car doors, I think Tunneling is a much better fit than an Autofire Penetrating RKA. Define the special effect of your Tunneling as "shoots a ring of bullets".

Re: House Rules

A fundamental meta-principle of hero is reasonableness. Hero mechanics run on mechanics tempered by effects. In other words, a logical mathematical model balanced by reasonableness imposed by dramatic sense, genre, and special effects.

I disagree. The great (in my opinion) advance of Hero is that special effects rarely change the result of a game mechanic. You don't get extra STR when using TK against an iron door, you don't do extra stun damage with sonic attacks against targets with extra-sensitive (in the +PER sense) hearing, your fire blast doesn't do extra damage to Paper Mache Man, and your radiation RKA doesn't render metals brittle. The "real world" or "logical" result of a Power is irrelevant.

You don't get to kill Thor with a greatsword to the head just because you knocked him out. His skin is super-tough even when knocked out. Similarly, you can't Transform an unconscious Darkseid into a bunny. Not because doing so is somehow undramatic or a bad special effect (humiliating villians is quite fun after all), but because his Power Defense leaves you unable to do so. What's the point of the Persistent category of powers if they don't work when you're unconscious? I think ignoring game mechanics because it's dramatic is a really bad idea. Can you imagine being told by your GM "I know your Colossus clone doesn't actually have an "extra stun from Magnetic attacks" Complication, but attacks from this villain are going to do double stun to you anyway because I think it's dramatic". Perhaps you have a phlegmatic disposition, but I would be livid.

Re: House Rules

I've never played in a Heroic level game where the killing an unconscious foe with a full phase action wouldn't apply.

I've never played in a Heroic level game where the characters had enough defense to avoid taking body on an average hit with a killing attack. Getting hit in the 3-5 or 13 was always painful. It therefore is no surprise that you can easily kill unconscious characters with head shots, since Heroic games tend to use hit locations. However, I've never had a GM that allowed automatic death shots even to unconscious characters. You don't get to ignore my BODY characteristic just because I'm unconscious. Maximum damage to any hit location you wanted, sure. It doesn't take long to kill you doing double BODY after defenses combined with maximum sword damage. The idea that somebody with a 2d6 RKA gun can kill a brick with 25 fully resistant PD just because he's unconscious is absurd.

Re: House Rules

I disagree randian. Let's look at the entire sentence:

It is pretty clear that all it takes is a Killing Attack and a successful Attack Roll. There is nothing in there about PD, or Armor or anything else the unconscious character is killed automatically. And this is exactly how I would expect it to work.

Then we agree to disagree. I don't think the author intended to imply you can ignore both the persistent defenses and the BODY characteristic of an unconscious character. I have posted the question in the Rules forum to clarify.

Last paragraph, first column: "A character in this state of unconsciousness (-10 STUN or worse) can be killed automatically as a Full Phase Action by any character with the means to do so (a Killing Attack or other powerful attack) who makes a successful Attack Roll against the unconscious character."

What is meant by this? Does it really intend to imply that an attacker can ignore both the persistent defenses and BODY characteristic of an unconscious character?

Re: House Rules

6th edition' date=' volume 2, page 106, last paragraph on the leftmost column.[/quote']

You forget the key caveat: "by any character with the means to do so". If you can't do enough BODY damage you don't have the means. At best, this paragraph means that you can do maximum damage to a post-twelved character by taking a full-phase action to attack them. If I have 25 PD and you're doing 12d6, the 24 BODY and 72 STUN won't kill me. Indeed, I can be at -500 STUN in Hero and be no closer to death than if I were at full STUN. If I have 20 PD, you do 4 BODY (or 8 BODY with hit locations), which still doesn't kill me instantly.

Re: House Rules

one feature that D&D has that we used extensively is that unconscious creatures are automatically considered willing

Hero always considers unconscious creatures as unwilling unless the power is beneficial, like Aid, Healing, or some sort of defense usable by others. Furthermore, since reducing defenses is a voluntary act, an unconscious character's defenses are always at full strength unless they were tricked into lowering them while awake and couldn't abort to raise them again before being knocked unconscious or those defenses aren't persistent.

As far as I can find (I am still a newbie) HERO explicitly does not have a similar rule' date=' but it does state that knocked out creatures can be killed with a full phase action.[/quote']

It does? Where? You can certainly automatically do head shots in games that use hit locations. Double BODY after defenses may not be instant-kill, but it gets the job done. Drowning them works too. In superhero games it's quite common for characters to be unkillable by conventional means. You can knock them out to -oblivion, but you'll never get BODY through their PD/ED.

Thus' date=' we extrapolate this with a house rule that an offensive power used on a knocked out creature is automatically successful -- mental powers and mental transforms being the default mode of operation here.[/quote']

That's definitely not how Hero is supposed to work. Defenses are generally always on even when you're unconscious. It is entirely possible that the target has enough power defense to ignore your transform and enough ego defense to ignore a telepathy or mind control. They may have DMCV 0 when unconscious, but Ego does not drop to 0 when unconscious.

Re: DnD 3.5 to HERO 5e Conversion

Some people view the high end of the curve as an aberration' date=' a bug in the rules.[/quote']

I've noticed quite a few (perhaps even a majority of) gamers have an almost religious aversion to high-level gaming, whatever the RPG system. It's a point of pride for them that they scrap D&D campaigns at 6th or 7th level. They'd scrap HERO campaigns early too, lest the weight of experience points erase their character's stasis. Some even appear to prefer characters that are incompetent at in-game tasks.

Re: DnD 3.5 to HERO 5e Conversion

With a magic weapon' date=' yes. With a "knife", no.[/quote']

Power attack a one-handed weapon with two hands and you double your damage bonus. Power Attack for 8, giving +16 damage, then add STR bonus and maybe weapon specialization and you're at 20 base damage easy. Auto-crit does 40 damage, ergo 50 DC Fort save or die with zero magic. A 13th level rogue has it harder, probably doing ~6 (doubled to 12) base damage plus 6d6 sneak attack (21 damage), or a mere DC 43 save or die. Easy peasy.

 

That's aside from the fact you should be able to get off your full multiple attack suite before the target can react, meaning 2 or 3 DC 40+ Fort saves in a row. If the sheer damage doesn't kill you, good luck making the saving throws.

Re: DnD 3.5 to HERO 5e Conversion

If they survive' date=' they have to make a Fort save at 10 + Damage dealt. So a plain old knife is going to take a lot of sawing...[/quote']

Maybe if you're a wizard. A mid- to upper-level rogue or fighter can easily force a DC 50 Fort save, which is as close to automatic death as it gets in D&D.

Re: DnD 3.5 to HERO 5e Conversion

And Player A's character can get in a battle with a creature that has a CR of 8 and have a reasonable chance of survival (assuming he has 3 other level 8 characters with him). All Player B has is a reasonable chance of dying in the first round of combat if the CR 8 baddie goes after him. I've seen this happen so many times I stopped allowing Monsters as Races in D&D all together.

That's an artifact of 3 things:

1) WotC deliberately overpriced +LA templates. Multiple templates compounded the problem.

2) The benefits of LA were fixed, but the cost was variable. What cost you 1000xp at 2nd level is now costing you 25,000 xp at 10th.

3) The benefits were fixed, so what is fun or even overpowered at 2nd level is mundane and trivial (and thus hardly worth the xp) at 10th or 15th.

Nonstandard abilities should have been given a fixed xp cost. Then as you level you are given the opportunity to pay the fixed cost again to gain another increment of the ability. That's not very D&Dish, though. It's rather more like Hero

Re: Immovable Force Field

Is there any reason Barrier won't work for this purpose?

Re: 6E What happened to HKA?

So why does the Hulk or the Thing not swing a baseball bat to add some damage when faced with a powerful opponent? I suggest the reason is that, with their existing strength, there is no real benefit to using such a small item - it would not, in fact, enhance the damage they do. It would not be capable of delivering the same level of force they can already deliver bare-handed.

You can't apply that reasoning to superheroes. Size and power are no more related in a comic than they are in Hero. Comic logic no more limits what a baseball bat does than it limits what a small handheld box (Mother Box) does.

Again, you ignore opportunity costs. Time spent training to use a bat or sword is time not spent improving accuracy with your punch, lifting massive weights to improve your strength, learning a combat maneuver, divining the secrets of the Negative Zone, or convincing a Hunted to go away. While we as players model opportunity costs with character points, characters model them with time.

Ben Grimm might not be using a bat because

a) it really won't work to improve the damage he can inflict

it will work, but he erroneously believes otherwise

c) it will work, but only if constructed from certain substances which are not now available

d) he's spending time in therapy (buying down a Complication) rather than weapons training

e) he's spending time in the hyper-gravity chamber (improving STR) rather than weapons training.

f) he thinks bats are for sissies

g) he's out testing his improved Seduction skill on blind chicks

Any, all, or none of these might apply to Ben Grimm.

Re: 6E What happened to HKA?

How much more damage should Grond do if he swings a baton instead of his fist and' date=' given that, why don't all Supers carry a billy club or something similar?[/quote']

Because as far as damage is concerned, Grond is generally indifferent to spending 50 points on a 60 STR or spending 50 points on a 50 STR and 2 DC baton. Besides, why waste a line on your character sheet? Buy 60 STR and be done with it. If you're taking limitations on that baton, that's an entirely different arrangement. Most people like the extra lifting capacity and grab insurance of STR over HA (or moral equivalent), even if HA is cheaper.

 

You're also ignoring opportunity costs. By buying that 1 PIP KA or 1 DC billy club, when compared to having more STR I (a) lift less, ( reduce my ability to escape grabs and certain entangles, and © my choice isn't "X Normal or X Killing", it's "X Normal or X+1 Killing". The latter is especially important, because players almost never voluntarily use a lower DC attack when they have a higher DC one available. They won't occasionally use that X+1 KA, they'll always use it in preference to X Normal, because otherwise they wasted 5 points. If what they really wanted was a choice between X Normal and X Killing, now we're talking extra points for a Framework. You might say "but that's only 2 points at the margin", to which I say "opportunity costs haven't disappeared". Unless you're playing in a "build to concept" game, you are always constrained by total character points. That 2 points is a skill I don't have, an enhanced sense I didn't buy, or any number of other things my character now doesn't have and must wait for.

Re: What powers for "denial" specialist?

Who said you can't take anybody out with "denial" powers? You might not be set to easily knock them unconscious, but if they are in an Entangle they can't break out of or their END has been drained to the point they can't do anything without taking STN, then they are effectively out of commission.

I never thought of Drain as a denial tactic. Now that I think about it, since Drains became ranged in 6E they're a lot more appealing.

Re: What powers for "denial" specialist?

How about damage shields? Triggered attacks (attack or move and you'll take damage)? Things like that.

At +3/4 damage shields are darn expensive in 6E. In a 12DC game 6 or 7 dice of damage shield isn't much of a deterrent. Unless damage shield is your main attack, I think they're better for villains, who aren't point-constrained and can afford damage shields large enough to be a significant deterrent. As for things like triggered attacks, not only do they suffer the problem of lower damage due to their cost, but I think any attack that relies on the opponent is suspect. I could do 12 dice right now, or 10 dice, but only if you can't delay tripping the trigger? There's no contest, really. Triggers make great flavor powers, but as primary attack powers I think they're terribly deficient.

Re: 6E What happened to HKA?

Compared to Strength. Hand Attack is highly overpriced*.

That can be mitigated. That's why I like multipowering HA and STR (or even better end-only-to-activate Density Increase). Use HA only to provide flexibility through advantaged attacks: the 1 hex accurate HA, the armor piercing HA, the affects desolid HA. Use the DI slot for general STR goodness like full normal damage attacks and resisting grab/entangle.

Besides the obvious: Flash/Darkness/Change Environment/Enhanced Senses for sensory denial, Trip/Entangle/Barrier for action denial. Yes, I know there's some conceptual overlap here. Those powers are nice but they don't actually take anybody out.

I don't mind being a force multiplier too much (I loved battlefield control mages in D&D 3.5), but is it too much to ask to not be totally worthless every time a teammate can't immediately stomp on my opponent? The general environment is far less constraining in a superhero game than it is in fantasy, where the opponents have far fewer options for going through, over, or around obstacles or simply being unaffected by your abilities. One doesn't see Flash Defense or Radar very often in fantasy!

I'm also unsure where to go for defenses. I'll have relatively low STR and STUN, so high DCV like a martial artist? Invisibility or a personal darkness field to make them 1/2 OCV instead? That's more in theme. Is 1/2 OCV mechanically better than high DCV? You can't hide where you are with darkness, but you're immune to flash attacks which is cool.

Re: Gravity powers

If you want to suppress Flight in an area, buy Change Environment. It has a "reduce meters of " feature.

6E1 157 (Movement Powers) states: "Characters with unusual Movement Powers (such as Flight or Teleportation) can use those powers to get to their feet as a Zero Phase Action after being knocked down, and without moving any distance, if they buy this +5 Character Point Adder".

Since Position Shift does not require I actually move, does it still function when that movement mode has been reduced to zero, either by a Change Environment or an Adjustment Power that lacks "Can Remove Adders"?

Re: 6E What happened to HKA?

Can any one say old school StunX die?

Almost. A StunX die is 1, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. Why does this game have such strange dice?

Re: 6E What happened to HKA?

As Folded pointed out' date=' it's the cost structure that is problematic (apart from realism/heroic fiction modeling/etc.). A character can convert their STR to killing for almost no cost -- and this has particular benefit for bricks, since it is giving them another top-level attack for that cost.[/quote']

Sure a brick can convert STR to Killing for almost no cost, but why would he want to? For a meaningless extra BODY or two? Setting defenses to 2.5/DC, at 4 SPD and assuming all attacks hit a 4d6 KA does 16 stun per turn (SPT) while 60 STR does 48, or 2.5x more SPT. Setting defenses to 2/DC, said KA does 32 SPT and STR does 72 SPT. Hmm, only 2.25x SPT. If that's the benefit, I think a brick should be paid points to convert their STR to killing.

Re: 6E What happened to HKA?

Character 2:

10 STR - 0 Character Points

+8d6 HA - 32 Character Points

+3d6 HKA - 45 Character Points

TOTAL COST - 77 Character Points

 

On top of which, Character 1 gets the other benefits of a high STR, and Character 2 does not. Yes, Character 2 can limit his abilities (focus, real weapon, etc) and get the point costs to be similar. But he is still paying more base points for less effective abilities. I am willing to accept some discrepancies in different builds of similar characters resulting in different point costs, but paying 32 more points for less effective abilities seems a little unreasonable. I'm not generally a minmaxer, but I'm certainly going to think twice about the build when the differences are that extreme.

I'd say the number of characters for which that power suite wouldn't be multipowered approximates zero, as are the number of characters who would buy an HKA and have 10 STR. A much less absurd cost is more like 15 (25 STR) + 30 (multipower) + 5 (slots) = 50 points. 5 points is practically in the noise on 400 points.