Vigil

Hey what's that smell? It must be Issue 2! I'm not sure how this discussion segued from Issue #2 of the JLA/AVENGERS crossover to earlier and far less illustrious ones but to get back on track... I finally had a chance to sit down and completely read the issue as opposed to just skimming it but all in all...in a word...yeeesh! What a stinker of an issue! The fight between Cappy and Bats was a non (and I mean non as in actually never happened as opposed to non as in the sense of happened but was a letdown) event. So since it never happened there's nothing to discuss so let's move onto other areas. The Thor/Superman fracas was almost as big of a non-happening and bears little more comment. Thor's mystical nature, Mjolnir's supernatural/magical essence and Thor's vastly superior fighting experience seemed to have ben completaly forgotten as did Superman's vastly superior speed and raw strength. So, since neither seemed to bear any true resemblance to the actual characters beyond looking like them, there's really no basis for comparison and nothing to talk about here either. Pity, cause it would have been cool if the actual characters had fought and I'd hoped for way, way more from a writer of Busiek's ability. That being said, what a stinker of an issue. Not only was the plot all over the place in the worst way but there was absolutely no attempt made to mainatain any sort of consistency or continuity at all. The only guideline ssemed to have been that the JLA have to win in order to maintainthe unheralded plot twist which I'll plop in at the end as opposed to develop during the actual issue. God, does that suck! I'd hoped for much more and got much much less. Which is a complete shame given the prmising beginning of issue one. Oh well, nuff said and back to the drawing board. Maybe in another 20 years a real crossover and not a soulless blatantly pandering to DC piece of crap will occur. Maybe but not with this team. Vigil

My final thoughts No disrespect meant but it seems that I've finally reached the root of the problem. You see the superhero comic book genre appeals mostl strongly to thowse fans who have an appreciation 9and understanding of) mythical storytelling. And that is exactly what appears to be disinteresting to you. Your tastes seem to run far more to the verite or slice of life style of storytelling. And that's fair enough. The problem then becomes not one of comparing apples to apples or oranges to apples but of comparing rocks to apples...and that's just not going to be meaningful or understandable in any sense so let's just agree that we'll never agree and move on. Thanks for the discussion, though. Let's chat or argue again soon on a topic where there is common ground. Cheers, Vigil

As far as I know the bronze age started with Weird War Tales which I believe appeared in March 1972. That's kinda where most critics place the beginning. The end, well I think it came with the Crisis, I would say. So that gives about 13 years of up and down storytelling but also many revolutionary moments...first appearance of Wolverine...Warlock...Captain Mar-Vell...The Secret Cociety of Supervillains...The Fourth World...The New X-Men to name a few. It was a time of unparalleled creativity and I think it struck a beautiful balance between maturity and imagination. One can't credibly argue that Starlin's Warlock and Dreadstar weren't mature and edgy and insightful in the best, most fully rounded sense. And they did it without being nihilistic or cynical or self-indulgent. I agree with the commment that maybe today's dark, non-imaginitive tone is a lemming-like response. It worked for one writer so maybe it'll work for me, too, kinda thing until everyone is doing it. And there are exceptions that I think manage to stay positive. Stuff like Supreme Powers (by one of the best writers, in any medium, ever J Michael Straczynski of Babylon 5 fame), Thanos, The Outsiders, Noble Causes, The Avengers (hell I'll even allow Morrison's run on X-Men) are all excellent examples of smart, funny, well crafted stories that don't rely on shock value for edginess or cynicism for insight. Getting back to the 1970's, and I wish we'd never left for that matter, some other great writers: Gruenwald, Levitz, Goodwin, Micheline (whose brilliant work on Iron Man is still resonating to this day) even Claremont did some dynamite writing...quite unlike the warmed over pap he's shovelling now. And that's just a few off the top. What I'm saying, and this is an analogy that I first heard applied to music of the era but I think the metaphor holds, is that comics in the 1970's may have, at points, been viewed as being a river that's only an inch deep...but it was a mile wide and filled with fish of every sort. Now it's an inch deep and a foor wide and all the fish talk the same. And that's the shame of it all. Vigil

It's true there has been some good stuff published by Vertigo. Moore's Swamp Thind run (which gave rise to Vertigo) and Morrison's Egypt pop to mind. What I'm talking about, even moreso than individual books is the tone of the line. I don't think the generally pessimistic, even nihilistic, tone of those books or of books like The Hulk do anything to advance the artfulness of the medium. I think they just turn people off. It may not be the entire cause and there are other factors (computer games etc) but I think it's a good portion of the reason why readership is 10% of what it was 20 years ago. Think about it, there must be some reason why 9 out of 10 people walked away.

True there was a lot of schlock in comics in the silver age, especially in titles like Superman and Batman. The end result however, lead to the bronze ae, which I think was the richest, most fertile, imaginative and well written period in comics history. Titles like Warlock, The X-Men and Captain America spring to mind (anything that Steve Englehart was involved in, lol). I think, however, the problem isn't schlock or dross...it's cynicism and mean spiritedness, which are rampant in comics today and practically absent previously. In fact, more often than not, "mature" means either or both of those two things, which to my mind is anything but a mature way to write a comic. Rather I think those titles and, again, Vertigo is the worst offender should be labelled "Juvenille and self-indulgent". Just because characters swear way too much, treat each other badly are nauseatingly angst-ridden and get drunk or stoned on an alarmingly regular basis doesn't make a title any more meaningful or realistic or relevant than anything I've mentioned. In fact, because of it's mawkishness, I think those titles are less relevant. In my eyes,it's just a case of writers doing their job poorly ina a desperate and ill-fated attempt to be found intellectual and credible with the end result being that they turnout to be neither. In fact, I'd go so far to say that mature reader title have done little but dmaage the industry and drive readers away. Vigil

60's characters Hey Guys, I agree with the comment that said that the problem isn't the advance of scientific knowledge, it's the retreat of imagination. Anyone remember Alan Moore's brilliant Marvel parody, 1963? The problem with comics today, and it's something that started in the early 1980's with another Alan Moore title, Swamp Thing, is that now there's a generally prevalent feeling that comics have to be "realistic", that there can't be any suspension of disbelief. I cite any number of self-indulgent and crappy Vertigo titles, in fact virtually anything they ever produced, as examples. There seems to be an increasing need in comics to become "relevant" and to address real world problems. You ask me the real world is the problem, which is why I read comics and when I'm reading them the last thing I want to be reminded of is the real world. Give me Hulk smash over Hulk agonize anyday. Cheers, Vigil

Cap vs Bats...my 2 cents Hey Guys, I have to say, not having seen Isuue #2 yet, that based on my 30+ years of experience with the 2 characters that Cappy would mop the floor with Bats. Yeah Batman is way smart and has a high PRE but Captain America is the Ultimate Combat Machine! He's used to fighting in situations and against opponents that even Bats would find daunting...Korvac (Avengers 177) and Kang in the epic Kang Dynasty storyline. And note, that both of those opponents acknowledged that Captain America is extraordinary, in a class all of his own. Now Bats may be the greatest human combatant in comics but Caps skills in combat exceed what a human is capable of by a long chalk. How else would he duke it out with the guys I mentioned above, and many others, when seemingly greater heroes have already fallen. Sorry Batfans but I think you should bow your collective heads to the Supreme Combat Machine and set your sights a little bit lower, say maybe on the Black Panther. But then again, the Panther does have super-augmented jungle born senses and reactions and the sacred spirit of the Panther God within him... Later, Vigil

Re: Joker write up Another excellent write up but I agree with most of the posted comments as to Joker's STR. I think in DC Heroes his STR is listed as 6 which would translate to a 30 in Champions. The way I'd structure it as 15 STR with the other 15 points as a manic burst. For the Luck, I'd look at 5 or 6d6 to reeflect the fact that things do seem to fall out in Joker's favor. I think this is even more emphasized in his conflicts with Bats by the fact that Bats seems to have 1 or 2d6 of Unluck...maybe even just against the Joker. The effect of the 2 together should help to accurately reflect Bat's frustration during their encounters Great write up. I'd love to see others. Vigil

Superman circa 1939 Hey There, I thought your Superman write up was pretty convincing and balanced but I do feel that his STR should have been more in the 45 -50 range. At 35 it may have been very difficult for him to lift the car, especially if you factor in the Golden Age Champions convention of moving stuff like cars one level up the chart to account for steel construction. I seem to recall somwwhere that in Superman's origin it says that he grew up on Krypton, which had a gravity which was much higher than Earth's (JUpiter-like or so, which accounts for his abilities) and that Krypton was never destroyed. Does anyone else recall this origin? Thanks, Vigil I tried to check out your website but couldn't find it. Could you post a link?

Thanks for the replies so far, guys. I think the megascale modifier is a great one cause it does allow for amazing, cosmic level feats without having to create characters with stats that are mornically high. For example, in my estimation Superman would have STR of about 150 or so (that's a rough estimate based on the AC article converting DC Heroes to Champions, I don't recall the issue off hand) which wouldn't allow for anything even close to what would be needed for these sorts of feats. On a related topic, and this is probably another thread, does anyone out there have any basic ideas of how to chart out groups like the Avengers (being my fave). Is there some sort of consensus as to point ranges etc. I remeber Glenn Thain wrote an excellent article in Different Worlds on the X-Men back in 82 which was smart and innovative and well balanced. Do any more such articles exist? Just wondering.

Hi There, I'm a long time fan of the system from way, way, way back when (81-82 ish). I picked up the hardcover 5th Edition rules recently and had a question on the megascale modifier. Could megascale, added to STR be used to simulate Superman-like feats such as moving planetary masses? And if so, would the planetary (+1 1/4) level listed on the table be the ricght VAL? Now, I know that the first response would be "use telekinesis for that" but wouldn't STR be as appropriate? I mean, characters with Growth receive some of the benefits of megascale in a not so megascale way (ie automatic AE style STR) so why not allow it to be applied to STR in a megascale sense (wouldn't Marvel's Celestials and Galactus, among others, have this?) while using other combinations to represent other STR feats. That being said I was wondering what STR (Or TK) VAL would be needed for a planetary level effect? Assuming, high end that 30% of the planet is compsed of Stone which is per hex DEF 5 / BOD 19 would that require a STR of about 95 before Megascale? I couldn't find the numbers for water/hex so I'm not sure about the 70% of the planet. Sorry for the overly long question/rant. Cheers, Vigil