Vigil

Yeah, I see it Starlord. I was only...joking. Anyway, it seems to me that taking this sort of chart as gospel can be death cause every game has it's own mechanics and it's own conventions about what's "legendary" and what isn't. For instance, in my Worldwatch campaign only Job Hatchet and a few other high end bricks have a 30+ BODY, it's considered obscene. Vigil (my character and our equivalent of Batman or Cap but way cooler, I may add) has a 20 BODY but also has a honking big 10d6 HEAL which is the evolution of his power from the "Rapid Healing" power of Justice Inc. days. I guess, to me, I'm just very uncomfortable with the idea of all but the toughest bricks or regenerators have a BODY of over 20. I think those character types are meant to be "damage sponges" but others, like Cap aren't. If you consider the +5 CHAR points = 2x normal rule in Champs I can't see cap having more than a 20 BODY (4x normal) at the absolute outside and I think 15 is quite adequate. Beyond that and I think you're getting into munchkin land and unbalancing the cahrcter, IMHO. Vigil

Oh, I see it there. So what are you saying that Cap is Challenged ? I think he's at least Average/ Vigil

I guess that would explain it since I don't believe that I have the Genre Book. Is it 5th Ed? and what does it basically say? Vigil

Excuse my ignorance...but just what and where is this Standards Chart that is oft referred to here? Vigil

I agree with the general opinion here. The T Bolt is just a fanatically loyal Summoned creature probably with a level or two of difficult to dispell to express that it's Johnny will that keeps him around. I'd also build the T BOlt with a pretty honking big VPP< maybe 125 - 150 point with the limits that the Pool requires verbal commands from Johnny. As for Wildcat, it's apretty simple Healing with Resurrection adder with 8 charges...most of which the Crimson Avenger used up already. Vigil

Yeah, but I think 30 BODY for Cap is way way out of line and isn't indicated at all by anything shown in comics. I think 15 BODY with around 10 points of Power Defense is more appropriate. Just because max human is defined one way in Champions doesn't mean that Cap should comform to that one definition. Earlier I gave the way I'd stat out Cap and i think something in that ranger...where he approaches theoretical human maxes in a couple of areas makes more sense, but to give him a BODY score on the level of superbricks makes no sense. Sucking up BODY is a brick's job but it isn't Cap's. Vigil

It's a no brainer... the JLA would trounce The Authority, maybe even before they were aware of it. As I've said in previous posts, The Authority don't strike me as a very tough (defense wise) or speedy team and aginst the JLA that's death. Given the phenomenal speed and power advantage that the JLA possess, I belive that most of The Authority would be down and out on segment 12. Superman could trounce Apollo and Midnighter together without even breaking a sweat. Flash would run rings around Swift like she was standing still and before she even realized what was happening. Green Lantern dwarf the Engineer in pure power and imagination...9 pints of liquid metal is no match for the most powerful power ring ever created. Bats could knock Jenny Spark out before she even knew he was there. If it's Jenny Quantum then Plas could keep her distracted by turning into a cool plane or something and keep her entertained while the grown ups take care of business. Martian Manhunter or Diana or Aquaman could all kick the snot out of Hawskmoor, even if he's citified. As for the problematic Doctor, well he's so slow that even the slowest of The JLA could probably wrsp him up before he even realized what was happening. But, more likely, J'onn would just disconnect his mind from Earth's magical field, giving him an instant demotion back to mere junkie. All in all I think it would be one of the JLA's least challenging battles ever. Vigil

I agree 25 seems appropriate for Cap. If I recall correctly the issues that you are referring to were published in the early to mid seventies at which time Cap gained superhuman STR and toughness. Those increases were temporart and by the time of Avengers 170 had faded to the point where Cap had to exert himself to do the aforementioned 500 lbs curls. As an aside, the Beast in re-racking the weights did so with a mere 2 fingers and dangled the weight above his head. I don't know what that says for the Beasts STR but to do that gives him I think a score of somewhere around 38 or 40. Vigil

and just to add a little bit of fuel to the fire Here's an off the cuff but carefully considered version of Batman: STR 25 DEX 28 (higher than Wolverine or Nightcrawler but lower than Cap) CON 25 BODY 13 INT 38 (at the level of Magneto) EGO 23 (same as Cap) PRE 40 (same as Cap) COM 24 (again just short of Magneto. I think it's the cool helmet that makes the difference) PD 15 (he's on the high end of human tough) ED 15 SPD 6 REC 12 (same as Magneto) END 50 STN 40 Plus he's got gadgets and Martial Arts and other nifty stuff too. Again, I think putting Bats in this range makes him unique and nuanced and dynamic but not a "munchkin". I think it's important to think of characters in light of the other characters around them and in the perspective of their world. Obviously a lot of the dynamic appeal of a charcter is in how they're played and what's done with the pile of points. Vigil

some thoughts on Cap When I began playing Champions...decades ago...ye gods!, the first references which converted MU to Champs which I picked up was the Different World with Glen Thain's version of the X Men. Since it was published I took it to be approved and authoratative. In the write ups, it placed Wolverine, the most Cap-like of the X Men at: STR 28 DEX 26 CON 30 BOD 15 INT 14 EGO 13 PRE 20 COM 12 PD 22 ED 15 SPD 5 REC 15 END 60 STN 45 He, obviously, also had Regeneration and other stuff. In another such apparently authorized column a couple of years later the Teen tiatns and Deathstroke were written up. Deathstroke read as follows: STR 25 (seems way low to me, I would have gone 35 - 45) DEX 30 CON 28 BOD 15 INT 30 (what the...what for?) EGO 14 (seems low) PRE 25 (again seems low) COM 20 PD 15 ED 15 SPD 8 REC 12 END 56 STN 50 Then he had armor and his gadgets, etc. Back then I took those write ups as the basis with which to start converting Marvel characters. Over the years my opinions have changed and grown but I still think those write ups are a good launching pad, if out of date. Given that, I'd write up Cap, off the cuff, the following way: STR 30 DEX 30 CON 25 BODY 15 INT 18 EGO 23 PRE 40 (Magneto had a 50 in his write up and I don't think Cap is quite that messianic) COM 20 PD 18 ED 15 SPD 6 REC 13 END 50 (as we all know Cap never seems to tire but I think that's as much a function of Reduced END Cost and actual END) STN 45 All in all he looks kinda like Wolvie and kinda like Deathstroke which to my mind makes sense since they're physically very comparable. In reagrd to the many OHOTMU comments, I believe it says in there that Cap "possesses greater agility than any Olympic athlete who ever competed", which I think may argue for an even higher DEX but at the same time Deathstroke, who's supposed to be the absolute peak of human into the superhuman range has a 30 so I think 30 is fair. As for SPD, well, again Deathstroke uses 95% of his brain capacity and is super augmented so he gets an 8, which puts him into the speedster range...makes sense. Wolvie is fast, but not blazingly quick - toughness is more his hallmark - so he gets a 5 which, incidentally, I take to be kinda baseline Marvel superhero SPD. I think Cap is in between so 6 seems apropos. I think it's important to remember in discussing Cap as the peak of human potential that the Super Soldier serum didn't make him the peak right across the board. It did, more or less, physically but it didn't seem to augment him significantly mentally. Steve Rogers was always a geeky kinda bookworm so he was pretty bright to begin with. As for EGO, well Cap has an iron will rivalled only by Thor and maybe Wanda in The Avengers so I think 23...beyond NCM and into the low end mentalist range is good. After all, he's strong willed but not formally schooled in mental combat and he's not in Professor X or Phoenix's league. At the outside 25 EGO is as high as I'd go with him. Plus he's have Mental Defense and Overall Levels which he can use for Ego Combat. Beyond that I think my write up is kinda basic and middel of the road but I think it makes Cap playable and enjoyable without making the other characters superfluous. remeber Cap is certainly the best combatant in The Avengers...other than Thor and maybe Hercules but he's isn't an island unto himself in the scope of the team. As for his powers, I haven't really thought about them but maybe I'll chart them out soon and post them for savaging, lol. Anyway that's my opinion and you should stick to it. Vigil

Eureka! Ah ha, I found him. He's in the GNBORH under the Frighful Four. You should check him out. Thanks for replying. Have a good day. Vigil

Will do and thanks for the advice. If you aren't familiar with the charcter, The Brute is the Reed Richards of Counter Earth. The difference, however, is that when CE Reed was exposed to cosmic radiation it caused him to manifest his repressed rage and hatred and dark, evil, side...kinda like the Hulk but still maintaining Reed's intellect, although ina twisted form. He appeared in Marvel Premiere with Adam Warlock first then showed up the classic FF 177 - 183 where he got trapped in the negative zone and hasn't been heard from since. An amzingly cool character. I'll keep you posted. Vigil

Hey Liaden, Somewhere a while back I saw a write up for one of most fave underused Marvel villains, The Brute. I thought it was on one of the eight pages worth of old Champs threads that you posted again recently but it wasn't. Do you happen to remember seeing that write up and, if so, where? Thanks again, in advance. Vigil

d'oh! I just finished posting my thought on exactly this issue in the Doom/Destroyer thread. Anyway, a recap. We always tried to play games with a distinct Marvel feel that the original Champions point totals didn't seem to capture soour early campaign (over 20 years ago! yeesh!) had our heroes in the 350 - 400 point range. Now many years later they're in the 370 - 2000 point range with the average being 800. As for how they fit in relation to other supers, well, Worldwatch have long since been considered our Earth's equivalent to the JLA or Avengers so they're the dominant force for good. A few years back the team reached its maximum membership with over 50 supers on board in what was a literal army brought together by Vigil to right all of the world's wrongs. This army was later decimated by Rex Monday and The Cartel in a world altering story arc and the team is now back, more or less, where it started with 8 members. Active points tend to be in the 90 - 150 point range with Nirvana's Dark Matter Blast being the big gun with 24d6 EB VA (+1) and 302 active points. While it's true that manyadventures have a rather philosophical or "soft" tone to them there's still plenty of villains and teams out there for Worldwatch to duke it out with on an ongoing basis and the power level doesn't make soft stories any less effective. Vigil

an observation One thing that I don't really like about Champions is just the fact that all of the superheroes seem radically underpowered when compared to the characters which inspired them in Marvel and DC. As of this iteration, it seems that the average NPC super is built on about 350 points...which is a level comparable to The New Mutants. When I began playing Champions over 20 years we quickly realized that the types of stories and, more importantly, combats that we wanted to portray fell outside of what was then the norm for Champions. The one natbale exception to this in the early Champions canon was Strikeforce, which showed charcters as they began and later with significant amounts of experience. So we abandoned all of the NPC, etc and simply used the system to create the level of campaign we wanted from the ground up. At the time, beginning supers were built on 350 - 400 points (including disads) and the scale went up from there (megavillains were in the 1500 - 2500 point range. We felt that this reflected the sort of feel and flavor of the comics that we most liked. Similarly, we never really applied any active point parameters and we found that that balanced out conceptually, also. We found that f you want to build a 350 point character with, for instance, a 200 active point power that that character is going to be exceedingly powerful in a rather limited way while being very vulnerable in others and that the weight of limitations and inherent unblance of the charcter tended to balance things. Now, many many years later, the point totals in our team Worldwatch range from 370 for Spectra to 2 000 for Vigil (who is used, mostly, as an almost omniscient NPC) with the average being about 800 points...just in the same range as the Avengers or JLA. The thing I like about a range that diverse is that it gives the team a real feeling of comic book "realism". After all, Green Arrow and Superman coexist in the JLA and their point spread is proabaly pretty similar, as I imagine, is the point difference between the Wasp and Thor. The other thing that I like about that sort of point range is the fact that charcters then become startified and specialized and their roles become much clearer. And finally, it allows for just the sort of combats mentioned here several times... the lone hero against the megavillain. And there's few things more fun and dramatic to play than an injured, exhausted Job Hatchet putting it all on the line against Gargantuan or Rex Monday! Anyway just my thoughts but I am curious as to the point levels and active point parameters of other campaigns out there. Vigil

I have to agree with Liaden To give the Hulk, even a "calm" Hulk a STR 60 is disingenuous if not insulting. The Hulk is supposed to be Strength personified...and 60 doesn't personify STR in any but the lowest level Champions campaigns. The way I convert STR from the OHOTMU to Champions is that, up to STR 50 I take the amount the charcater is supposed to be able to lift or press and track it straight across...so Spider-Man can lift 10 tonnes...that's STR 44, Doc Samson can lift 25 tonnes, that's STR 50. When STR scores get up into the lift/press 50 tonnes range (STR 55, Rogue for example) I then correlate the STR score staright across with the tonnage lifted. For example, it says Colossus can lift/press 70 tonnes. Rather than give him a STR 57 (which is luaghable for any true brick) I give him a STR 70, which makes sense. By this system, the Hulk, in his calm state (and the Silver Surfer unaugmented by his cosmic power as well) has a STR 90, not STR 59. With characters in the Class 100 range it becomes a bit of a judgement call but even then, with a little thought the traisn run on time. By my calculations, Thor would have a STR 110, Superman a 120 (maybe up to 130), Wonderman 100, Hercules 110, and an angry Hulk up to around 140 or so. Then there's guys like Gladiator who would have a base STR around 100 but can lift an extra 50 STR or so. Were you to translate the OHOTMU STR scores right across you'd end up with a system where Rogue has a STR 55, Attuma STR 56, Colossus STR 57, Thing STR 58, calm Hulk STR 59 and Thor STR 60. And that makes no sense at all. To say that Thor does only 1d6 more damage than Rogue is absolutely moronic and shows a complete lack of understanding of the spirit of the charcters involved! Anyway, that's my rant for now. What I'm trying to express is the fact that rather than pigeon hole characters into some sort of artificial 60 point active point total, take a look at the character and how they relate to others and go from there. For me, in the above, I'd used Colossus as a baseline (since he's fairly simple to chart out) and scaled from there. Vigil

From reading some of the comments, I think that what's happening here is that several people are completely misunderstanding the power levels of Marvel characters in general and Doom in particular. There were some excellent write ups of The Silver Surfer which I will try to find and post for you here to give some sort of enchmark to go by. If I recall correctly, the Surfer had a 16 or 18d6 EB with a +2/34 Variable Advantage...this was before megascale and the author wanted to make the advantage large enough for the Surfer to cover entire cities with his EB. Plus he then had his Aid, and I think a VPP etc to augment his abilities further. There are some good write ups of the FF in TGNBORH and I think there's a link around here somewhere for it. I think that Mitchell Santorenios' write ups are pretty good and consistent but I think he severly underestimates several of the FF's abilities...most notably only giving Reed 8" of Stretching! What the! I think something along the line of 30"+ combat is more appropriate. Somewhere here, someone mentioned, absurdly enough, that Dr. Destroyer was on the level of Galactus. I'll try to find the write up for him that was posted in aprevious thread...and Liaden you're the expert at finding such things so your help would be appreciated once again...thanks in advance. Anyway, check out the Galactus write up. If I recall correctly he has 4 425point VPPs on top of his basic stuff. Destroyer wouldn't even make a dent...or be noticed at all. As for Doom...well I posted Steve Long's stats for a one megaton nuclear explosion a little earlier. It seems to me that Doom's force field would have to somewhere in the 80rPD/80rED range with additional goodies like 20 - 30" of KBR and probably 50 points of rPower defense, hardened to even begin to survive such a blast. I think the reason why Doom doesn't always use his force field is that it makes things too easy for him and he wants to feel that he's being challenged. I think that with his ff up, Destroyer would have a virtually impossible time doing any real dmaage to Doom and Doom could then dispose of him at his leisure. Remeber Destroyer is tough but Doom is the original that Destroyer was based on and you gotta go with the inspiration, not the copy. Vigil

yep...done blowed up real good...just like Wendy O Williams!

blowed up real good... Eureka, I found it! The mention of a nuke got me to thinkign thatI'd actually seen one written up in Champions, and I did! It's in the Hero System Almanac #2 but for those of you don't have it here are the highlights of a ONE MEGATON NUCULEAR BOMB. Note: I'm not going to include thelimitataions unless people really want them but they mostly cover duration etc. Plus I mentioned that in the OHOTHMU it says that Doom can survive at ground zero of a nuclear explosion so most of the limtiations are irrelevant anyways. First Effect: 6d6 RKA AVLD (VS POWER DEFENSE), AE (ONE MILE), AFFECTS DESOLIDS, FULLY INVISIBLE PLUS 3D6 CON AND BODY DRAIN, AFFECTS DESOLID, AE (2 MILES), FULLY INVISIBLE That was the basics. Now it gets good. Second Effect: FLASH 8D6+1 MAJOR TRASFORM (EYES TO POOLS OF GOO), AE (50 MILES), AVLD (SIGHT GROUP FLASH DEFENSE), AFFECTS DESOLIDS Now it gets really good... Third Effect: THERMAL BLAST: 20D6 RKA AE (18 MILES) Fourth Effect: EMP 6D6 RKA AE (12 MILES), FULLY INVISIBLE look out here comes THE BLAST WAVE! Fifth Effect: BLAST WAVE/STATIC OVERPRESSURE 20D6 RKA AE (10 MILES), INDIRECT (ALL PARTS OF AN OBJECT, +3/4) AND BLAST WAVE/WINDS 20D6 RKA AE (10 MILES) DOUBLE KNOCKBACK Sixth Effect: NEGATIVE PRESSURE 3D6 RKA AE (10 MILES) what only 3d6 RKA ?...it's like a spring shower! Seventh Effect: FIRESTORM: 10D6 AID (HALF TO THE RKA OF ANY FIRES, HALF TO THE AID) UNCONTROLLED, CONTINUOUS, AE (1.25 MILES). Eight Effect: NUCLEAR WINTER - ESSENTIALLY SFX AND A BIG CHANGE ENVIRONMENT. So that's a nuke in a nutshell. If Doom's force field can survive that, I don't think he's in much dnager from Destroyer's 150 point MP. Now, to me, this kind of nuke seems way over the top but that's the way it's written up. Food for thought anyway. Vigil

I haven't read all the responses but I think the consesnus is pretty clear. As for my team, Worldwatch the punishments would probably read as follows: Vigil - walk with the man into The Dusk where Vigil would sell him off to extradimensional horrors at a slave market...what goes around comes around. Nirvana - if she paid any attention to him at all she would probably just erase him with an energy blast. The Aviator - would be shatttered to see the depravity that a supposedly civilized man is capable of. He would surveil the man until he had enough evidence to act...while making sure with his phenomenal senses that these children aren't or are "real" and then he would act within the law to bring a stop to it. He would also see about counselling for the real children. Professor Cinnabar - more or less the same response as The Aviator. Job Hatchet - to a man who was raised as a shepherd on an otherdimensional Earth and has since adopted mankind as his flock...you do the math. Wrath of God comes to mind. Doc Monolith - probably along the lines of Cinnabar and The Aviator Spectra - the ingenue of the team would be the most problematic. Only in her mid teens herself she may have a horrible time dealing with something like this. She'd proabably feel horribly conflicted, she'd do everything she could to protect the children, but would never loook at taking the man's life as an option. But she would do everything she could to see justice done. Something like this would be an incredibly test of character for her. Eikon - does the man possess any items of occult power which Eikon could collect? No? then he wouldn't give a rat's ass. I think that's how my team would deal with it if they had to. Vigil

In defense of Doom Hey Vorsch, It seems like you've missed the point of Dr. Doom. Someone once posted an analysis of the Hulk on these boards which said that his real power was "to be stronger than anyone else in the MU" And Doom is the same way. His job is to be the most dire terrestrial threat that any group of heroes can face. So, in essence, Doom is as powerful as Doom needs to be to fill that role...kinda like Destroyer. Even in the HOTHMU it says that Doom's force field is strong enough to survive a point blank nuclear blast, which I think goes way beyond 30d6 and that's Doom at strolling in the park levels without augmenting his basic set up with his VPP Gadget Pool. Dealing with Doom then, is never a matter of just going in and outfighting him...if it's shown that way, the writer has missed the point. Even the FF have never beaten Doom cleanly in astricght up fight, it's their cohesiveness and strength of conviction that always carry the day. I don't know but I'd say that Dr. Destroyer is really just a jacked up knock off of Doom and that were the two to meet Doom would give Destroyer the bitch slapping of his life. To do otherwise would be unlike Doom.

Hey All, I've been playing with Hero Designer v 2, doing some finishing touchs on my superspeedster Professor Cinnabar. One of the powers that I wanted to give him was the classic speedster bit of snatching the weapons out of the hands of groups of people before they can even react. So I built it as a Martial Takeaway AE Radius (with increased radius, 8"), Selective, Costs END to activate (to represent the effort of exerting both Speed and STR to pry weapons away from multiple targets simulataneously). The limitations is Linked to Superspeed (non proportional) (-1/4). I think that's a very basic and fair way to express the power. The problem is the cost and the structure. Does anyone know why a 4 point Takeaway Manuever with +1 3/4 in Advantages turns into 84 points? Or why you can't apply Limitations? Or how to change any of this stuff? I'd also wanted to move the ability into his Superspeed Tricks MP but can't seem to find a way to do that either. Thanks in advance for your help. Vigil

First off, I'd like to wish all of my fellow hero-philes aVery merry Christmas and a Peaceful New Year. In the spirit of the season, and in the spirit of rampant polling, I thought that there could be no better, no more festive, way to celebrate the season that with a poll too determine who the one true Yuletide Titan is - The Grinch or Santa! So, without further ado, let's meet the combatants for this very special battle. In the red corner, weighing 365 lbs and hailing from the North Pole. He knows when you're sleeping! He knows when you've awake! He knows when you've been bad or good! So be good! For! Goodness sake! Yes, none other than the jolly old elf himself...Santa Claus! and in the green corner, hailing from Whoville and weighing 98 lbs soaking wet! He's a mean one! Miiiiiiiisterrrr Grinch! Let's get ready to rumble! But wait! What's that! There seems to be a disturbance in the crowd! Other combatants have appeared, each claiming to be the true spirit of Christmas! We have: none other than the Lion of Asgard... Volstag! and wait, what's that noise? We thought that not a creature was stirring not even a mouse but it seems that some trouble is stirring in the form of... Cindy Lou Who! A hushed silence falls over the crowd, interrupted by a sudden "SNIKT!" as the final contestant makes his entrance to uproarious applause! It's... Wolverine! Yes he's here, everyone's favorite adamantium clawed berserker has thrown his cowl into the ring as the true spirit of Christmas! But wait, can it be? Melting from the shadows themselves, one final entrant! Gothm City's own Caped Crusader! The Bane of Bane! The Dark Night Detective Batman! Who will survive what has become an awesome "SPIRIT OF CHRISTMAS BATTLE ROYAL'!

No prob. Try this link: http://www.sysabend.org/champions/gnborh/gnborh.zip Vigil

I remeber reading in the 5th Edition rulebook just the other day, under the optional combat rules, that if an attack does more than 1/3 of a target's body that it severs a limb. that seems fairly staright forward. In the case of The Authority, if they're fighting a bunch of normals then they're only having to do 3 BODY or so to tear off an arm. Any super can do 3 BODY off hand and, in this case, I think it's just applying the optional Severing Limbs rule. IMHO, if they're tearing off someone's head then I think it's just a matter of SFX for an attack that does 2X BODY. I believe that I read somewhere in Hero's rules that if a single attack does more than 2x a target's BODY then the character is irretrievably dead from the massive damage. Given the fact, again that most normals have 10 BODY, that's just 20 BODY, which a lot of supers can do pretty easily even with non KA's. Check out the Authority write ups in the Great Net Book of Real Heroes if you're interested to see how some people stat them out. What's interesting is that their stats aren't all that high and they don't have any KAs that ican remember. The bloodiness is just the chosen SFX for their style of combat. Vigil