Vigil

Re: Champions 6th version Another thing I just noticed is that universally, in the Champions character examples in the second sourcebook, all the characters maintain the classic 1/3 ratio of DEX/EGO to OCV/ECV. Since the deisgners don't seem to be able to or want to move past the ratio, why bother changing it? It's seems, like in the old system, that there is still a move toward the old, iconic, balance. I've yet to see an example here of a character with a 14/2 or somesuch.

Re: Champions 6th version I think for me the thing most at issue, having started playing Champions back in 1981, is that 6th Ed doesn't feel like Champions anymore. It feels like Mutants and Masterminds or some second tier superhero rpg. It doesn't feel like the classic. And I'm really not sure why the originator and the best rpg system ever created would want to remodel itself to feel like it's lesser competiton. It's like chasing the bronze medal when you have the gold. The system simply wasn't broke...so why neuter it? I think it's most likely because of the dismantling of the CHAR system. Right or wrong, the system was iconic and who really cares if you got more than point for point benefit from STR and CON? Are we gamers or accountants? It just shows that it pays to have a high CON. Makes sense to me. Stuff like changing movement from inches to meters (which is odd in an American publication anyway, not being on the metric system) doesn't really bother me but "inches" were another iconic Champs insitution. I really do feel that what's happened is that the 5th Ed, which was a perfect system, imo, has become, in the 6th Ed, "Champions for Dummies". It seems to be a very deliberate attempt to dumb the system down and I'm not sure why. Obviously to appeal to someone but, if it's supposed to target the popcorn game crowd it doesn't work cause it's still well over 700 pages! Why simplify the system when no one had problems with it's "complexity"? Were Figured CHARs too challenging? I'm still puzzled by the argument that this iteration was meant to broaden the appeal of the game. Who was it meant to appeal to? We all already have the game so it's not us. Then who? I think the only reasonable answer is that it's supposed to be marketed to folks who play the MMO. That has to be the answer. If it isn't then there's something wrong with HEROs marketing department. I've seen in my experience though, that people who like MMOs generally won't take the time to learn another, even a related system....because they like MMOs! Not RPGs. Pen and paper and online are galaxies apart. Vigil

Re: Champions 6th version Actually, I seem to recall that in one of the 6th Ed prerelease threads that's basically exactly what Steve said. I will try to dig through to find the thread reference. 6th Ed was created to attract new fans, I would imagine, from the online world as that was supposed to be the tie in...the advent of the online game and the presumably parallel rules revisions for the 6th Ed. There would certainly be no other rationale for it as anyone who is a fan of 4 color RPGs is already a Champs fan and player, it would seem. if you like superhero RPGs you know about Champions, period. In that way it makes sense...have the online and paper version use the same character generation system. The problem is that I really don't know of a single WOW player who plays D&D and precious few City of Heroes players who hold a similar interest in Champions. It seems to me that the two worlds are very differently targeted while superficially similar. Online gameres simply aren't interested in the type of complexity that pen and paper types bask in. And, if as you assert, Steve never said it, then what is the rationale for the 6th Ed? Just wanted to mess up a system that is already the best system in the gaming world? Was it working too well? It just doesn't make sense as anything but an online tie in promotion. Vigil

Re: Champions 6th version Hi Folks, I haven't read all of the posts here or in th other very extensive threads dealing with the 6th Ed but I did pick it up and browse through it (all 700+ pages). Unfortunately, imo, it's the weakest iteration of the game baring New Millenium, which was an all time low. I can understand Steve's stated reasoning that it's made to appeal to subscribers for the online game but it seems to be targeted to a group that really, in its very nature, has no interest in anything but online gaming. So, it's basically a situation of abandoning your base in the hopes of finding a broader audience. Truly a case of the grass is greener if ever there was one. It seems some of the changes were pretty trivial and some (like Growth) were of the "huh, what th--?" sort (4 points for level of DI and 6 for Shrinking just seems odd and gimmicky somehow) . To me the truly egregious offense came in the dismantling of the CHAR systems, something that has been a bulwark and an insitution right from the get go. Jettisoning the Figured CHARs made no sense either. Given the revision it seems that every CHAR should be 1/1 as none of them really seem to have any use at all, anymore. DEX being 2/1 just seems to be a rather lame attempt to retain some of the old flavour (gvien that it's usefulness has been gutted as it it no longer determinative of OCV/DCV) and to prevent the system from looking too much like the CHAR generation systems you see in online gaming. Moreover by making EGO 1/1 the system makes Mental powers, which were already a pretty dodgy prospect even more unavailing. At one for one the cost of EGO is such that bricks can run around with 30 EGOs for 20 paltry points. It just about makes EGO powers useless. Obviously, the big change is breaking out OCV/DCV into their own CHARs. This seems to echo other systems...see below. This is not too terribly bad of an idea but given that in the examples they are all tied to to the 3/1 DEX ratio why bother anyway? Moreover, this formula makes CSLs basically superfluous, which the rules kinda do anyway. I think that the revision may well be an attempt to turn Champs into more of a "popcorn" game like "Mutants and Masterminds" but it's counterintuitive since I don't know of many 700+ page 2 volume popcoirn games. It doesn't make the system any more accessible, user friendly or understandable just far less interesting and distinctive and much more generic. I'm hoping really that this is all a glitch or a bad dream or an imaginary story as this is a truly horrendous revision. Maybe I will wake up tomorrow and see that is as it was and all is good. I know that, I for one, will no longer pick up Hero products as the system I know and love no longer exists (in certain very meaningful ways) as it has for almsot 30 years! Ah well, at least I still have my memories...and given this revision they will have to do... Vigil

Hi Folks, I'm currently running a JI/Pulp Hero campaign here and I had wanted some input into a itustion that the PCs have gotten themselves into. I've been running the Radio Marauders scenario and at our last cliffhanger the PCs have crashed their Oldsmobile sedan into a garden shed where several Marauders are guarding the secret access to Dr. Hengelhoffer's underground lair. The problem is, that a couple of PCshave taken some Body from a previous run in with our Tommy Gun toting baddies and given the DCV of a Olds sedan the car was welcomed with a robust hail of gunfire, totalling 15 hits. That's the cliffhanger. What to do now? Fudge the hit locations? I mean this could be a Bonny and Clyde type blood bath. What do you JI/Pulp Hero GMs and players suggest? Obviously, given the convetnions of the genre some sort of spectacular coincidence is needed here. Maybe the floor collapses under the weight of the car landing it in the underground tunnels while the gunfire chatters above? Not sure how to play this one... Vigil

Re: Deathstroke module from 1983 Hi Torchwolf, I actually picxked up all of my V&V pdfs from RPGnow. The one module that they are missing is Death Duel with The Destroyers. In fact, it seems to be basically imposible to find. I located one copy on EBay but that's about it and I had wanted a pdf as opposed to paying astronomical shipping charges for the module. I will have a look at PRGnow for pregenerated maps, also. I have all the Her Maps resources, I think. Do you know of other good possibilities? Vigil

Hi Folks, I was just wondering how many people out there have run the Deathstroke module/scenario from way back. It was published in 1983. I was reading through it and it seems that the map of Deathstroke's base is rather woefully incomplete. In fact, it just stops with the base description leaving entire areas indicated on the base map completely blank. Kinda an odd approach. So, of those of you who have run it, does anyone have copies of maps for the missing areas available or know where they can be had? Also..on a related topic...kinda...does anyone have a PDF of the old V&V scenario, "Death Duel with the Destroyers" available or know of where I may be able to find one? Thus far my search had turned up nada. Thanks, Vigil

Re: Converting Call Of Cthulhu To Champs... Thanks for the leads, all. The posted material looks quite helpful especially in regard to gelling thoughts on size (a major feature of CofC), PRE and that sort of thing. COM is rarely an issue, though. lol I do have most if not all the supplements mentioned and found the Anopheles write up especially helpful for its Sanity/EGO blasting effects. I was thinking that for lesser creatures just straight PRE modified by the applicable adds would be good but for the more hardcore Lovecraftian beasties, ie, shoggoths, hunting horrors, dimesnioanl shamblers, etc...the truly "alien" creatures that levels of mind blasting would be good. Thanks again for a great start. It's always nice to have another perspective to gauge my own thoughts against. Vigil

Hey Everybody, I am working on launching a Justice Inc./Pulp Hero campaign here in Cowtown and I was planning on using heavily Lovecraftian elements in the campaign. I recall seeing at least a rudimentary conversion scheme from CofC to Hero somewhere but can't recall where that was. Anyone remember? Or, if not, does anyone have conversion system, suggestions or hints that they have used or found helpful? Thanks once again, for the collective wisdom of Herodom assembled! Vigil

Re: Best SuperHero Fights ever I agree. The Iron Monger storyline was great as was the Justin Hammer/Devil in a Bottle storyline from the 120's. I also really enjoyed the first War Machine storyline from, I believe the 270's or so. Plus Iron Man vs the Hulk from 119 or 120 or 121 (can't remeber which issue specifically) was really excellent. At the time one of the things that i liked about Iron Man was that he regularly fought foes who were more powerful or skilled than he and he had to use his brains, which made the man as important as the iron, as it were. Plus, his technology seemed to have very real limitations. He simply couldn't build a set of armor powerful enough to directly combat someone like Thor or the Hulk. Now, sadly, that limitation is no more. Now, it seems, there's no limit to his technology or his power. He simply builds whatever suit he needs for whatever purpose and "presto whammo" problem solved. It makes one think that maybe Doc Doom should shop at Tony's garage sales because he doesn't seem to be capable of the same sorts of leaps. And don't even get me started on the "futurist" bullshit being shovelled in the worst storyline in Avengers history (even worse than Avengers Disassembled), Civil war. What a load of cynical, meanspirited bullshit. Vigil

Re: Best SuperHero Fights ever I think Mantis was a way cool character, too. Unfortunately I think she may have been too revolutionary for her own good. Think about it, Mantis appeared around 1972, if I recall corrctly. That was a full 3 years or so before Gamora, Storm and the revamped Marvel Girl would really start to revolutionize the image os superheroines as extremly competent and forceful in their own right. Ms. Marvel had just appeared, if I recall correctly and was starting to make some inroads as was the Valkyrie over in the Defenders. In the Avengers, Moondragon was being a bit too women's lib-ish for her male counterparts. At the time probably the two most visible heroines in Marvel were Sue Storm and Scarlet Witch. Wanda, while awesomely powerful, quickly ran out of juice and was, basically, a more or less minor threat, while Sue Storm was very much the supportive, team player hidden in the shadow of the men of the FF and still preceived as the weakest member of the group. Mantis was different. She kicked the crap out of Thor (briefly) in her first confrontation with the Avengers. She was forceful and dynamic. I think she was, perhaps, so revolutionary that the writers quickly floundered in trying to find a proper niche for her. Never mind the fact that she was, also, Vietnamese at a time when the Vietnamese were about as popular in America as Iraqis may be now. And so they, basically, abandoned her. It's a pity really cause she was so cool and she would never ever be used in any great stories after her initial appearance in Avengers. Still it would be cool to see her and Val duke it out. Vigil

Re: Best SuperHero Fights ever No question about it, Lord M... Karate Kid (the Pre-Crisis one I assume) is the numero uno pure MA in either universe, ever. No one else even comes close...except for maybe Mantis...

Re: Best SuperHero Fights ever I agree, Hulk 316 was awesome. And I agree that the Hulk vs Thing fights were, for the most part classic. I especially the one in FF 329 where the Thing had mutated into his spiky form with Class 100 STR and the Hulk was in his weaker Joe Fixit ID. The odds were on the Thing for once but the Hulk won by being smarter. Great twist. The Avengers vs Defenders clash had some great fights, especially the hUlk vs Thor where they just grind to a halt, becoming immobile as they perfectly match each other's STR and neither will give up so they just don't move. Great stuff. In the JLA/Avengers crossover I thought the one panel, one punch, victory of Cap over Prometheus was truly revealing. So much for the guy who wasted the entire JLA. Cap is THE ultimate combat machine as he demonstrated in Avengers 52 or 53 when he took on the giant force simulacrum of Kang. Cap mastered the technology on the fly, during a combat against a foe who had literally lifetimes worth of experience with the technology while Cap was recovering from near endless battles for the last half dozen issues and he still managed to clearly defeat Kang, who is an almost unparalled strategist and tactician. Even guys like Thor acknowledge that Cap is the best, period. Cap rules.

Re: Best SuperHero Fights ever I don't know if it's been mentioned yet, but imo there are a few great team vs solo villain fights that come to mind: 1) The Avengers vs Korvac from Avengers #177. Probably the best team superhero fight of all time because the action was tied in with the underlying emotion. Classic work 2) The same applies to Magneto vs the X-Men from X-Men 112 and 113. I think these are the two best issues of the entire run of the series and Magneto's high water mark as a villain. 3) The Avengers vs Count Nefaria from 165 and 166. Really classic action and it answers the question, What If the Avengers Fought Superman. Well, I guess they'd beat him is the short answer. 4) the FF and the Silver Surfer vs Terrax. This has maybe the all time best cavalry charge with the Surfer appearing literally out of the blue to save the day. Brilliantly done. 5) the FF vs Galactus from issue 242-244. Doesn't get much bigger than that even though it was, basically, an anorexic Galactus that they fought. Basically if Nicole Richie survived the death of our reality and was reborn into the next one but didn't want to eat planets because of all those icky calories and then fought the FF that's waht the above battle would be but it was pretty damn cool, anyway. Vigil

Re: Batman vs Midnighter Yeah Cap! He'd wipe the floor with Bats then tean Midnighter that there's certain things a "tactics engine" is completely useless at, that is, beating a foe that simply won't be beaten. Cap always finds a way to win, regardless of the odds and that's why... Cap Rules!

Re: Batman vs Midnighter As much as I hate to admit this...and I really, really, really, really hate to admit this, I think Midnighter would annihilate Bats before Bats even had a chance to comprehend what was happening, nonetheless react to it. Remember, and I think this has been stated elsewhere in this thread, Midnighter seems capable of at least Quicklsilver level acceleration and bursts of speed and his agility and reflexes seem to be superior to Spidey's so, plausibly, Bats wouldn't stand a chance. And since Bats would, presumably, be perceived as a "villain" by Midnighter I don't think there'd be enough left of Bats for a rematch after the first half second or so. Bats would be dead before he even perceived what hit him. Basically, Midnighter is like Deathstroke jacked up on super-steroids then combined with Deathlok for good measure. And we've all seen Deathstroke clean Bats clock on several occassions so there's really no way to deny that Midnighter would annihilate Bats in no time at all. And I really hate that, too, and utterly despise the Authority but that's, overwhelmingly, the only plausible outcome. And that sucks. Vigil

Re: Batman vs Midnighter Hell, I'd buy two copies. Maybe three.

Re: Batman vs Midnighter Streaky, absolutely. All the combat implants in the world (and I assume Midnighter has all the combat implants in the world since no one else seems to have any of them) are no match for the wrath of a small, marmalade-colored, tabby who just happens to have Kryptonian-level powers. Maybe Midnighter could calculate all the ways Streaky could scratch his eyes out before he reacts or something similarly lame.

Re: The Infinites pages Thanks again, Sketchpad. I've already submitted the pages to Alias and am waiting to hear back. I've tried to contact Speakeasy but they've yet to respond so I'm not sure what's up with them. I also e mailed Narwain for more info after you mentioned them and Markosia, from what i could figure out from their website is a book publisher or self-publishing house which is a route I definitely do not want to take given the time it takes to produce The Infnintes, the level of the work and the caliber of expertise.

Re: The Infinites pages Hmmm, thanks for the tips Sketchpad. I'm not familiar with either of the publishers that you've mentioned. Do they do superhero books or just manga stuff? Seems like it's harder for superboooks to find homes these days but I'll check into it. Thanks for the tip.

Hi All, Some of you know that the name of my team, and the focus of the campaign we've been running since '82, is The Infinites. Over the last couple of years I've been working with an old pal, Kelly Goodine (look for his work on an upcoming Marvel project) to get The Infinites published. There was some interest from Image but it didn't materialize. So, I thought I would turn to Champsdom assembled for advice on how best to proceed. I know the product is as good as anything out there right now. It's just a matter of finding a home for the book. Maybe, with a little bit of grassroots support, we could even persuade Steve Long to think about expanding into the comics publishing biz. I mean what could be better than to see Champs alumni make good? That being said, enjoy the pages. I welcome any and all comments. Vigil

Re: CHAR: Thor. (Marvel Style) I've always charted Thor's STR as 110ish so 115 is entirely reasonable. I noticed earlier in the thread that someone had referred to Thor's STR as 60 in Champs terms cause Thor can lift press 100 tons in TOHOTMU. Way back when I demonstrated a way to correlate the Handbook to Champs that maintains plausibility and character and system integrity. Now, let's take a few examples. Rogue can lift/press 50 tons. Colossus was originally stated as being able to lift/press 70 tons. The Hulk while calm could do 90 tons and Thor was stated as having Class 100 STR (so 100+ tons). now, if you literally just port those numbers across to Champs you get Rogue 55 STR, Colossus 57 STR, The Hulk 59 STR and Thor 60 STR! That's just patently stupid is what it is. Not only does it make no sense conceptually but it betrays the fundamental natures of the characters cause there's no way in hell anyone can plausibly argue that the Hulk only does 1d6 more damage than Rogue. No way, no how. But there is a solution. What I discovered is that you can maintain all the good things mentioned above by following the Champs STR table verbatim to the lift/press 50 tons level (55 STR) but from there take the Champs STR value as literally the tonnage lifted. So, let's look at our old example again. Under my system of figuring stuff, Rogue is STR 55, Colossus is STR 70 (lift/press 70 tons), the calm Hulk is 90 STR and Thor who has Class 100 STR starts somewhere north of 100 (as I said I put him at 110 and 115 is entirely plausible). All of a sudden you have STR that make sense within the scope of the game and the characters! Colossus is noticeably stronger than Rogue, the Hulk much moreso (even while calm) and Thor start out and stays scary. That's my fix for correlating STRs in TOHOTMU to Champs and it also integrates DC characters seamlessly on a par (or therabouts) with Marvel characters. Just thought I'd offer that. Hope it helps. Vigil

Re: Marvel's Ten Best Metamorphs It seems I always miss one no-brainer in these lists and in this one The Super-Skrull is it. He definitely deserves to be pretty high in the top ten.

Re: Marvel's Ten Best Metamorphs I think the key to the UMM and the key to metamorphs in general as expressed in the supplement is that metamorphs influence the "state" of things, whether it be their own forms internally or externally or those of others or even that of reality (like Proteus). It's not just shapeshifters and stretchy guys anymore.

Re: Marvel's Ten Best Metamorphs Impy's number one on my list at the start of the thread. There's no better metamorph anywhere and his showdown with Mxzptlk was a classic. As for Warlock, I'm sure Impy threw the contest.