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When would one need Power Defense that was resistant?

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay Does the system require you to take up to two hours, though? Or is this just trying different builds? The only systems I've played where the required bookkeeping steps took a huge amount of time were Synnibar (*shudder*) and C&S2e, particularly when rolling up a mage. HERO, otoh, especially with access to HD, just takes me minutes assuming I know what I'm building. If I don't, or I'm looking for the best ways to reflect a concept, then, yes, it can take longer. This is the flipside of flexibility (or crunchy flexibility, a la HERO and GURPS, at least).

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay I could point you to just about any HERO thread on RPG.net and many of the "HERO vs. M&M" threads I've seen you (and myself) in before where, intentional or no, people made objective statements ("System X is crap because") rather than subjective ones ("I don't enjoy X becasue"). The whole impetus of the ENWorld thread that started this was countering the assertion that "lite" is inherrently better design (which originated on Mearls' blog, if you want to read it). FWIW, I have not been asserting that the loop model is a rationale why people "should try" HERO. No argument there. Complexity (real or perceived) and required effort can be off-putting. Things did get awful heated all of a sudden. Actually, I think it was you who widened the scope, and now I'm trying to bring it back to where I think I started.

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay I'm not including "conceptual" time like this, as this is usually independant of system. Once you've decided what you want to create, IME, chargen doesn't take two hours. The possible exception is knowing what you want and then scouring through a pile of sourcebooks for mechanical bits to make it happen. I see this mostly in D&D and similar games.

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay If it's not fun for them, there's not much you can do. Ideally, a GM will assess the tastes of the players before embarking on building a campiagn. I've tried it the other way around before, and it really just ends up in frustration for both sides. (And, again, chargen just doesn't take two hours. Not for any game in my collection, at least now that I've sold my copy of C&S2e. )

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay Simply anecdotal evidence that the threshold you're talking about can be all over the map. Barring opposite extremes, there's really no threshold you can point to and say, "RPG X is bad because it exceeds this threshold," or even "RPG X will not appeal to most people because it exceeds this threshold." You've made it clear that HERO chargen exceeds your threshold. HERO's decent market share (for a non-WotC company) shows that it has not exceed that of everyone. I didn't see anyone telling people what they should do. That's the basic point. For many of those games, "template" = "pregen" != "chargen". FWIW, that was one of the arguments the guy I'm quoting was trying to counter. It was also what Mike Mearls and Ryan Dancey were trying to counter in the thread on ENWorld that gave birth to the guy's review (and thus the quote). No one is trying to do that.

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay The context of the example is player-centric, and for that it works pretty well. Sometimes even obvious things need to be pointed out.

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay As long as those 15 lines have meaning within the system, I don't see how it matters. This is a preference issue.

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay They'd use the ninja class from Book X, or work with their DM to adapt the rogue or a multiclass combination. D&D is not about flexibility. D&D is about a certain amount of flexibility within a set of archetypes designed to fit the campiagn world. HERO can become just as confining given GM parameters designed to fit a given setting. E.g., the paramters for Terran Empire don't really make room for a "ninja", either. The point is that not everyone necessarily "wants" D&D chargen to be anything other than it is. If they did, it wouldn't dominate 60% of the market. There is nothing inherrently superior about flexibility. StoryTeller isn't particularly flexibile; it needs to be tailored for a given setting as much as d20 or BRP. However, it seems to have done a good job, once tailored, for delivering the experience promised by the specific game in question (e.g., Vampire). What matters is simply wether the system adequately achieves the goals set forth in the product. D&D's goal isn't to present players with a multi-genre toolkit for designing any conceivable PC. It's to facilitate D&D-style fantasy, and part of that is assembling a party of certain archetypes who cooperate in adventuring scenarios. It does this extremely well, and also is robust and rigorous enough that it can take a lot of abuse for people who want to tweak but also stay within the parameters of a familiar system. Previous genre-specific HERO incarnations (e.g., Justice, Inc.) were similar: options narrowed to facilitate a specific goal. The converse is that HERO (and GURPS) are not particularly good at "out-of-the-box" gaming. You can't just "roll up a fighter", as it were. Parameters need to be set first: starting point totals, characteristic/AP/DC/skill guidelines, and parameters for use of Powers (such as defining a magic system for FH or "super skills" for DC). Then, unless a template is being used, you need to build the PC within those parameters from scratch. One methodology is not superior to the other; they just serve different aims. HERO shoots for maximum flexibility, but the price is speed and complexity. D&D shoots for being playable ASAP, but the price is flexibility, and a certain "black box" aspect to the rules.

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay Yes, I can see this. It does often help for the newb to have some sort of investment in the character, even if it's just giving them a choice of avaiable characters: "Okay, do you want to play Buffy, Xander, Spike, Willow, or Anya?" You can personalize this even more by making pregens, but letting the newb choose the name and gender. It takes no system knowledge, and it goes a long way to helping the player identify with the PC.

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay I've run HERO events twice at ENWorld gamedays, and only one player total was familiar with HERO before playing. Ergo, I have to explain the basics before we can even start. The keys for newbies are: Starting in a heroic setting (less powers, less points, less dice) Giving them the two-page combat summary from the Free Stuff page Wholly ignoring chargen and points at first. Boiling down HERO to the basics: You roll 3d6 to determine success and want to roll low, you roll Xd6 for effect and want to roll high. 3 is a crit and 18 is a fumble. There's normal damamge and killing damage. This method has so far resulted in one person each game buying a copy of Sidekick. Honestly, someone's first introduction to a system should never be chargen. They should get to play it first.

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay Though, one could argue (and I have been on ENWorld) that lite RPGs tend towards relying on GM fiat, which inherrently takes away control from the player. E.g., Dynamic Magic in BESM/SAS/Tri-Stat is basically defined as "the player can create any effect they want, as long as the GM feels it fits within the power level they've paid ponts for." Not that I want to start a big lite-vs-heavy debate, but I don't think that there's an inherrent superiority in this area that has to do with rules-quantity or complexity. A lite game may have a mechanic that gives the player a lot of say in the narrative flow of the game, or it maybe a glorified "Mother may I" exercise. A heavy game may provide incredible detail and PC control, or it may be an exercise in rolling on a lot of tables.

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay IMO, I don't think that this is a given. It also depends on whether "new player" means "someone new to roleplaying" or "someone new to the RPG in question".

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay FWIW, it seems like this particular campiagn would be a good amount of work regardless of system. These parameters seem fairly "high-maintenance", as it were. This is not a fault, just an observation.

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay It doesn't have to. There are just two things you need to remember: 1.) Use published material. HERO has many "bestiaries" for each of its major genres, not to mention the FH grimoires, the USPD, etc.. There also lots of character archives out on the Web. Even if what you find is not exactly what you need, it's likely close enough to modify with minimal effort. 2.) NPCs don't always need to add up. All you need to stat out is what characteristics and powers are relevant to the scenario: SPD, BODY, STUN, CV, notable CHR rolls, powers, skills, and relevant distads. And you can just assign appropriate values; you don't have to go through the actual chargen process. At least not for every single NPC. Save the full-blown chargen for the big NPCs who will be recurring characters in the campiagn.

I saw this interesting tidbit in an ENWorld review of Castles & Crusades: This seemed relevant as a counter to the usual complaints against HERO's complexity. It's one most of us are familiar with ("The complexity is in chargen, but then in gameplay it's no biggie"), but I thought this was a good expression of it. Particularly because it's a good argument in *favor* of complexity as long as that complexity pays off in simplicity and enhanced gameplay while in the "campiagn loop". I find this very true in HERO. I find that, by the time I'm done with creating a HERO PC, I know it like the back of my hand. Every capability is spelled out in very exacting terms, and I know very explicitly how said capabilties interact with other characters' and the game environment. Anyway, I just thought this was a nifty observation.

Re: Anyone get DC: TAS yet? I agree. I actually found it much more in that vein than B:TAS.

Re: Anyone get DC: TAS yet? There are two sample campaigns. Hudson City Knights is the official DT:TAS setting, and is akin to Batman, i.e., no real superpowers. Hudson City Powers is more like early Spider-Man, i.e., low-level supers. I've only read the former so far. The Hudson City Knights villains are: Adonis: Aging brick model who's has too much surgery and now must steal to support his surgery "habit." Anagram: Female Riddler with a crossword puzzle motif. Astrologer: Toymaker turned mystic villain with a high-tech quarterstaff. Beatlemania: Beatle fan who commits crimes to pay for all the memorabilia he covets. Chitchat: Failed TV show host with a microphone that can control audio systems. Nuisance villain. Copycat: Copies the crimes of other villains. Doctor Enigma: Faceless villain who paralyzes people with The Unanswerable Question. Best villain in the book, IMO. Facet: Gem-loving cat burglar extraordinaire. The Human Capitalist: Wonder where villains hire all their goons? Here's your answer. Last Call: 1920s gangster-themed villain who's an ace shot with a Tommy gun. Midas: Goldfinger. The Missing Link: Runaway circus freak brick who uses gorillas as goons. Penny Dreadful: Literary snob who commits literature-themed crimes. Raptor: radical ecoterrorist with a Batman-esque getup. Red Eyes: Hyper-violent pugilist, victim of drug experimentation. Three of a Kind: Criminal triplets

Re: S. John Ross I saw it right after I posted.

Just wanted to say that I didn't realize S. John Ross was going to contribute to PH until I read today's front page. Booyah! Can we get him to do some graphic design work for DOJ, too? E.g., Fief is gorgeous.

Re: Appropriate challenges: how many points? Would that I were wise enough to think of that. Thanks, Z!