buzz

Re: GenCon Indy?

I'll be running a DC:TAS adventure that is currently being written by Joe Linehan. Of course, it seems to have already filled up... Sorry for not spotting this thread sooner.

I'm not sure I understand the example featuring Golden Eagle on p.122 of 5ER.

If he flew at full velocity (160"), it would take him eight Phases and 564" of space to come to a complete stop.

If a PC can remove velocity at 5" per hex, doesn't that just mean that Golden Eagle can decelerate in a single Phase, it just happens to take him 32" of movement to do it? (Just a Half Move for Golden Eagle.) That seems to be the math used in the first half of the example; 4" of movement to get up to 20" velocity at 5"/hex.

Re: HERO system observations and beefs

A free e-Sidekick is an idea worth considering, IMO. Maybe wait and see if sales of the book die down at some point. Lull = give away.

Re: My two cents

I've glimpsed at the D&D core d20 book' date=' I just can't agree with your statement. There's definitely a whole lot more at the core than either of the spin-off products I read would indicate at a surface reading.[/quote']

No. There is no "generic" d20 "core". There is D&D and the open-source material that has been released form it. A bunch of RPGs have built off the D&D core to create new RPGs that appeal to peole who know how to play D&D. They are absolutely nothing like what is being discussed here.

Re: HERO system observations and beefs

To be fair' date=' I think we know this based on DOJ's own statements, and they (likely) aren't about to lie about not doing as well as they'd like.[/quote']

But there isn't necesarily a conncetion between having a rough year and a need to change the product. I'm not seeing any proof that people jumping ship for lite systems is the issue.

Re: HERO system observations and beefs

Instead' date=' HERO has been criticized as being too complicated or too much work by the LEGIONS AND LEGIONS of RPG'er who play games like Vampire, etc.--the role player, not the rules lawyers or wargamers in RPG'ers shoes. [/quote']

Bullpucky. "Legions and legions" of people rag on D&D/d20 all day, every day, too. It hasn't stopped d20 from being a huge success. HERO, in one form or another, has been nominated and won myriad awards, and is in the Hall of Fame of multiple magazines/fan communities. Why buy into what the naysayers say? They're full of it.

 

Or' date=' we can stick with the idea that the crunchiest, best game system will eventually win out. But be warned, Marketing is a real discipline, and after production, is the MOST important part of any business.[/quote']

Right. And a big part of marketing is knowing your product and knowing your audience. Not transforming your product to meet what you think are the needs of your audience.

 

I'm just not really seeing evidence that this "problem" we're trying to solve really exists, ergo, I don't see the need for the proposed solution. (Though I agree with the effort to "humanize" HERO books.)

Re: My two cents

With all due respect' date=' I say poppycock! My SAS d20 book says "Requires the use of the Dungeons & Dragons, Third Edition Core Books, published by Wizards of the Coast"...[/quote']

This is an issue withe the d20 STL. Every d20 game is essentially "all-in-one". You don't "graduate" to the D&D PHB becasue you bought SWd20. The comparison doesn't work.

Re: HERO system observations and beefs

The difference is that Hero is not doing it in a way which appeals to potential new buyers.

How do we know this?

And I repeat my "zero to HERO" argument from before.

Re: My two cents

Case in point - MnM and some other d20 products have motivated me to eventually buy the d20 core book. It would just NEVER have happened without having read a couple d20 products. I can't say that strongly enough - NEVER!

This isn't really a valid comparison, though. There is no d20 "core book". I mean, there are a bunch of them, and they are all self-contained games: D&D, SWd20, d20M, WoT, CoCd20, AU/AE, M&M, SASd20, BESMd20, OGL Horror, the list goes on. It's like saying, "I liked Stormbringer so much that I decided to buy Call of Cthulhu."

A better comparison would be if you could point to people who bought the Hellboy or Discworld RPGs and then decided to move up to full-on GURPS.

In any case' date=' I think it's an equally broad stroke to believe that the rulebook doesn't intimidate some people away and that some of that audience include people who WOULD enjoy and embrace it if they realized how little of it is actually core/necessary to play.[/quote']

IMO, Sidekick fills this role. The demo kit I proposed, or possibly a HERO "adventure path" might also serve a similar purpose.

 

I guess I'd like some actual data that shows the size and complexity of HERO is really driving people away. I mean, I hear HERO detractors saying this all the time, but outside of Web fora, I've never really seen it.

Re: My two cents

Some of the most popular games out right now are games which don't have the appearance of complexity. Hero waves the complexity in people's faces while most other games slide it in the back door when no one is looking.

See, I'm not sure about this. Monte Cook recently wrote a column about some of the design goals for 3e, and one of them is what the 3e team called "rules mastery". I.e., the game was specifically designed to reward people who were able to figure out optimal combinations that produced "winning" results. Ergo, a level of complexity was a goal. And they seem to have been rewarded in this thinking.

I think that a lot of the most popular games out right now --RPGs, CMGs, and CCGs alike-- do wave their complexity to a certain extent. Doing so, I think, attracts just the sort of people who enjoy these sorts of games.

For example, I once read something about the appeal of games like Pokemon, specifically their appeal to boys. Boys apparently love to immerse themselves in convoluted arcana, as it were. The vast number of Pokemon characters with different names and powers, and the way the various Pokemon cards wokred with each other, was a huge draw to boys. It's jsut like collecting tons of baseball cards, having all of the player's stats memorized, and then playing games of trying to one-up each other. Or, heck, think of the arguments comic fanboys have about superhero minutiae.

All I'm saying is, complexity or depth is often a turn ON, not a turn OFF. It certianly seems to have captured the majority of the RPG market.

I would put for the idea that 75% of the people who play Hero started with the Champions basic set of 1st through 3rd edition.

I'm not sure if I agree with this. The BBB (and HSRB) was the edition that was around for the longest.

Right now people don't really grasp what the potential of the system is; or in order to grasp it they need to spend a great deal of money to buy several books.

But they're perfectly willing to do this with with other systems. Why not HERO?

I mean, think about GURPS. SJG has never really done anything like what we're discussing. Sure, there have been a few "powered by GURPS" RPGs, but I don't get the impression that they were designed to be introductory systems. They're also a pretty recent creation. GURPS doesn't seem to have been hurt by this.

Most of these gamers are younger and they don't want text books to read [they get enough of that in school]. They want products which stimulate their imagination first and their mind second. If you can capture their imaginations you can get many of them to expand their minds.

I guess this is just where we have to agree to disagree. The only places where I see real aversion to the average page count of RPGs (and, honestly, most RPGs are HUGE) are the Forge, and Forge-like peeps hangin' at RPG.net.

What many of us are talking about is just trying to find a way to A: Let new gamers understand what Hero can be used for. B: Give new gamers the same degree of "flash' in presentation that they are getting from virtually every other 1st or 2nd tier game company. C: Make it easier for potential new gamers to get involved with the game system in the same manner which we did - by playing with a game' date=' not trying to design from a toolkit.[/quote']

I can agree with most of this, I guess I just differ on the implementation.

Re: My two cents

I'd really be interested to know if there's an actual demand in the market for an all-in-one HERO product, or fi this is just a lot of old-timers spitballing while drunk with nostalgia. Has anyone from DOJ wiehged in on this issue yet?

Re: My two cents

All new gamers have is a 600 page book full of options.

No, they have a 128-page book of options.

Re: My two cents

To those who think there's an idleness' date=' a lack of need/purpose, for HERO to support or directly do an "all in one game", please see KA's excellent post... KA made a particular statement that struck me...[/quote']

Here's the statement that struck me:

 

If someone had walked up to me and handed me Fred, I would have said:

"I already have these for school. You must be kidding. I have to read all this to play a game?"

I think this is a specious argument. Most RPGs are comprised of big, fat books. Some of the biggest offenders are some of the biggest product lines: D&D, GURPS, Palladium/RIFTS, WoD (2+ books to play in the nWoD), Exalted, Call of Cthulhu... this hasn't stopped any of them from being successful.

 

The gaming lifers, the ones who stick with the hobby and spend money on it, don't say things like, "This is a freaking textbook; I have read this to play a game?" They say, "Why aren't they supporting this RPG more? They've only printed 600 pages of material this year!" This goes for both the newbies and the grognards.

 

When I was a kid and I was told I needed to buy a stack of books to play D&D, I said: "Mom, when can you buy these books for me? Can we go to the hobby store now?"

Re: My two cents

I don't agree that Hero's whole appeal is that it is a massive toolkit. If that were the case so many fans wouldn't have jumped ship for lighter systems. As far as Hero being on a "lofty plateau' date='" it doesn't do the company any good to be so high that new fans can't reach it.[/quote']

I simply think that the answer to the "problem" being discussed is not to change the fundamental nature of the system, nor to appeal to the types of gamers who won't be interested in the full product. People always put forth the idea of simplification as the cure-all to the popularity of RPGs as a whole, or in this case, to a specific game. And it's almost always wrong. I know from what I've read from many of D&D's designers that the increased crunchiness has been a huge DRAW.

 

Look at the recent, glowing review of 5ER on RPG.net. One of the primary draws for the reviewer, a HERO newbie, was the flexibility of the full package.

 

Honestly, I think that once you boil down HERO to a ruleset designed for a specific genre or setting, you're removing the game's whole raison d'etre. You end up with a point-buy RPG that uses d6's. That's not the appeal of HERO. The appeal is the toolkit. I see no reason not to focus on that.

 

It also seems odd that you seemed to recommend the exact opposite things for M&M on the GR forum. You wanted them to be less crunchy with their future sourcebooks to not destroy the lightness of the system [assuming you are the same buzz who posts there].

Yes, that's me. No, I wasn't asking for less crunch. I was asking them to stick to the Annuals as a venue for article-length treatments of different genres, rather than HERO- or GURPS-esque sourcebooks. M&M is all about skinny books and not sweating details. I want it to stay that way (it's fundamentally different from HERO in that way; I see no reason to force it to change). I'm more than happy to see more crunch (powers, stunts, flaws, combat options) in future sourcebooks.

 

Hero's strength is not it's complexity' date=' it is its versatility.[/quote']

I specifically said I was using "complexity" as a reference to "depth", not challenging math.

 

And yes, it's versatility is its strength. Why focus on products that specifically remove that element of the system? Why turn back the clock to the '80s?

 

A game can be both less complex and versatile at the same time. A die-hard fan isn't the target audience for an introductory book. You already know what the Hero System is because you learned it playing Champions [which it was for 20 years]. New gamers don't really have that option. If they can't immediately grasp and understand what the system is for they will just move on to another system. They are plenty to choose from.

But that's just it. There ARE plenty of other system to choose from, especially if you're talking one-trick-pony RPGs that do one, and only one, genre. Why force HERO to compete in that market?

 

(BTW, HERO was Champions, and Champions-only for about a year or two. Then Espionage came out. Then a slew of other HERO-based RPGs came out. Then the BBB came out in 1989, and the HSRB soon after. Ergo, plenty of people came to HERO when it was generic. When I was introducing the BBB to my college buddies, the universailty of the system was EXACTLY what sold them on it.)

 

It would seem clear to everyone that DoJ cannot afford any more loss leaders. Sidekick should be priced at $15.00.

Upping the price now would be the kiss of death. Sell it for $9.95 in stores and online, sell it for $1 at conventions, give away free copies for demos.

 

Something like this takes both time and money and also relies on the idea that existing fans will get more people involved with the game system. That has been DoJ's tactic for 3 years. It does not appear to be working as well as they had hoped.

The demo kit that I'm envisioning would take maybe a weekend to put together. I'm seeing a short scenario that would take 2-4 hours. Add in some pregens and some specific guidelines for the GM on how to present the system to newcomers.

 

Steve Kenson ran an M&M demo along the lines of what I'm trying to describe at GenCon last year. The basic scenario would fit on 1-2 pages. The pregens were the iconics from the book (thus, already done). Add in 2-4 pages of "lesson plan" and you're done. Heck, get some of the LoH to help design the thing. Cake.

 

I'm also not sure about the "not working as well as they hoped" thing or the "gamers jumping ship for lighter systems" thing.

 

As for the former, let's have some perspective here. A little over three years ago, HERO wasn't even in print. Fans had been waiting years just for a definitive answer as to whether there'd ever be another edition. All we had going on was freaking Fuzion.

 

Now, sure, it hasn't been a great year for DOJ. It hasn't been a great year for most RPG companies. But look at HERO now. A steady release schedule of consistently awesome books which receive critical acclaim and numerous awards and nominations. HERO compares (and competes) with *GURPS* in terms of market-share. That's huge! From zero to HERO!

 

As for the latter, I'm not sure I see it. Yeah, you've got people like Darrin Kelley or tesuji who like to proclaim far and wide how switching to lighter systems has cured their male-pattern baldness and resurrected their long-dead dog (which big, bad HERO had shot, of course). But is that really what's happening in the marketplace? Not according to Ken Hite (about the most authoritative reporting on the hobby we've got).

 

And, heck, doesn't GoO make precisely the sort of products were talking about here? And they're floundering! Laid off everyone! DOJ is just proactively tightening its belt a bit.

 

Splitting the books in two does nothing to attract new fans. Now they are just required to purchase two books instead of one.

Having to purchase more than one book to fully play and GM an RPG is nothing new, and players new (and old) to the system can play just fine using their $9.95 copy of Sidekick.

 

Given the size of 5ER and the compromises that obviously had to be made in order to keep the book at a reasonable price-point, it simply makes sense to ask $10 more in order to produce two, logically-divided rulebooks of higher physical quality. DOJ's profits increase and we get nice books. This is exactly what SJG did with GURPS 4th, and they just reported having a very profitable year --another exception among a depressed market. (And no, it wasn't all Munchkin sales; GURPS 4th sold very strongly).

 

And if we're talking about newbies here, what's going to look more appealing? The big yellow phonebook, or the two crisp volumes with slick color covers?

 

Anyway, appeal aside, the book is just getting a bit unwieldly. I love it, but the next edition either needs to be shorter or split in two.

Re: My two cents

In general, I think that a stand-alone, self-contained "Fueled by HERO" book or line is a waste of DOJ's time and money.

HERO's whole appeal is that it's a massive toolkit that allows you to roleplay any type of genre or setting you can imagine. In this regard, it stands head and shoulders above its few competitors. In the rules-heavy end of the spectrum, GURPS is really its only competitor. Like GURPS, HERO is a system that you "graduate" to once you've cut your teeth on "starter" RPGs like D&D or WoD. It's for serious gamers.

A stand-alone HERO "sub-RPG" removs the system from this lofty plateau and forces it to scrounge with all of the other one-trick RPGs trying to live off of D&D's table scraps. A self-contained fantasy HERO game, for example, would have to compete with D&D, HARP/Rolemaster, Exalted, Palladium, and every other FRPG out there. And what would such a product be trying to prove? That HERO, when tailored, does fantasy better than all of the rest? That's not the point. HERO, sorry to say, does NOT do fantasy better than all the other FRPGs out there. What it does do is do fantasy just as well as the best FRPGs, and, more importantly, does EVERYTHING better than any other RPG that tries to do everything.

I'm a direhard HERO fan, and I buy pretty much everything DOJ puts out. I would have no real interest in buying a modern version of Justice, Inc. or a self-contained Turakian RPG. I've already got all of the tools to do that.

Granted, I know that us diehards are not the target audience we're talking about, but I think that any HERO product should, ideally, appeal to both new and old customers. Not to mention the issues I raise above. What incentive would there be for someone new to HERO to buy the Turakian Age FRPG as opposed to any of the other 149 FRPGs out there? None! Sidekick and 5ER are far more compelling products, IMO. I mean, what sounds more enticing to you?

"See, in this fantasy game you roll 3d6 and use a point-buy system to..."

or

"This 128 page book gives you the basic rules to play in any genre you can imagine."

In the latter lay HERO's appeal.

It seems all too common that the solution to increasing the popularity of a system or RPGs as whole is to simplify and dumb thigns down. I don't really agree with this. HERO's complexity (read: depth, not difficulty) is its STRENGTH. To really attract lifers to the system, you need to be up front about that, not try to hide it. You're only going to attract fair-weather fans that way.

What I think would be a lot more useful for HERO would be to:

Use Sidekick as a loss-leader. Give copies of it away at cons, or at least sell it for some token sum, say $1. GoO did this with TriStat dX at GenCon, and I snapped up a copy without thinking. (Yes, I realize that emulating GoO might not sound like a great idea, but selling this book for $1 was not the source of their current problems.) Sidekick is a fantastic introductory product; selling people on it is WAY easier than selling them on 5ER. DOJ needs to get this book into the hands of as many people as possible; take the risk to make the cash later. I ran a HERO demo at a recent Chicago Gameday; when I ran out of Sidekick copies to give away as prizes (thanks, Tina!), people went and bought out the last copies the store had.

Put together a formalized demo package. A simple one-shot adventure, written out similarly to an instructor's lesson plan to aid GMs in using it as a teaching tool, would be a great item to make avaialble for download. Feature something along the lines of GURPS Infinite Worlds multi-genre setting so as to highlight how flexible HERO is. Make sure that it can be played through in about 2-4 hours. Put this package in the hands of every fan of the game and Legion of Heroes member.

Make the books prettier. It can't hurt. I mean, I do like the curent look of the line. We've had some very good covers. The layout is plain, but functional; it has a clean aesthetic that I like. Still, Reality Storm was a good example of other ways of presenting a HERO product. It wasn't the most gorgeous thing I've seen from GoO, but just seeing a HERO product wth their design sensibility was eye-openeing. I also think that any future revisions/printings of the main rulebook should have a more appealing, eye-catching cover. I'd be interested to see DOJ do a cover design contest a la SJG. The look of the new GURPS 4th line was VASTLY improved by that.

Decrease verbosity w/o decreasing clarity. Mammoth tomes are a HERO signature, but I do think that sometimes the books could be less verbose than they are. Anyway this isn't a huge issue, just something to keep in mind. Enhancing readability is all I'm really talking about.

If the above is not possible, split 5ER into two books. I think it's about time. Yes, we'd end up paying a bit more, but we'd likely end up with higher physical quality per book, and players would likely be able to get away with just buying the "Characters" book (or just Sidekick). DOJ would probably also reap a bigger profit; profit keeps them in business, and I want them to stay in business. (And, really, the probable price point of the two-book version would simply bring HERO in line with its competitors. Per page, 5ER is cheaper than D&D or GURPS. Yes, it's black-and-white, but still.)

Add flavor, simmer over medium heat. I never thought I would say this, but I'd like to see some game fiction creep into the books once in a while. Or some comic panels. As Zornwill said above, just because it's, essentially, a textbook, doesn't mean it has to be boring. (Not that HERO books are boring on the whole; that's the nature of rulebooks.) Heck, if smelly ol' White Wolf can do it, DOJ can.

Re: My two cents

Where do you find that there can only be art or content and not the ever pleasant dream of getting both done right in a single package?

Heck, if Green Ronin can do it...

Re: HERO system observations and beefs

...the d20 system is not the "be all and end all" as the Universal Game Licence seems to lead one to believe.

Not sure if it got mentioned yet, but there is no such thing as a "Universal Game License." d20 also has never been adventized by WotC as a generic, universal system. Just an *open* one.

Ranter, educate thyself.

Re: Nifty accessory: the Superhero Tarot

In a contiguous serious (with lighthearted moments' date=' but a serious campaign) how do you rationalise the fact that Slinky the Multi-Armed Martial Artist just teleported hisself to Antarctica and back? He's never done it before and can never do it again.[/quote']

It's supers; anything is possible.

 

But, some people like dramatic editing mechanics, and some don't. If you do, I think these cards are a cool implementation.

My Champs GM has recently started using the following as a sort of superheroic Deck of Many Things:

http://www.ihero.net/tarot.html

It's a tarot deck illustrated with characters from iHero Entertainment's Cyber Age Adventures. The cards are vey high-quality and the art is great.

My GM basically lets you opt to draw a card instead of getting XP for a session. Each of the cards has been assigned a different type of bennie, form +20 COM for a game day to a one-time teleport to anywhere in the campiagn world. I think they could also make for a good "creative whack pack", or even as a resolution method for a supers game. With magic being such a big part of the Champs universe, they seem very appropriate.

Re: Help me build my Gameday event!

Okay, the basic scenario I'm picturing involves

1. An initial confrontation with some 150-point "mooks" to ease poeple into the mechanics of combat

2. A full-on brawl with some "lieutenant" NPCs at about 350 points; maybe half as many as there are players

3. The final confrontation with the Big Bad, a single 500-point monstrosity.

The premise revolves around a disgruntled employee (and long-time town resident) who finds a cache of alien technology. He starts selling this technology to anyone who can afford his prices. Consequently, there have been a rash of thefts in town. Some rogue teens have gotten wind of his "business", and are scraping together enough illegal cash to outfit themselves as "superheroes". Mr. Disgruntled has also been selling some lesser weapons tech to a local biker gang.

Gang = mooks.

Teens = lieutenants.

Mr. Disgruntled = Big Bad.

The gang raids the local hangout where the PCs congregate. At the end of the fight, they realize that the reason the gang hit their hangout is becasue the rogue teens are already robbing the local bank... and they're doing it dressed up as some of the X-Men. Yup, spandex and all. Their powers don't exactly match their respective costumes, but it's close enough. Thankfully for the players, theire powers are unreliable, and eventually backfire enough that it put their lives in danger.

The PCs then have to trace all this back to the Big bad, who of course has kitted himself out with all sort of high-tech weaponry, having fully expected that someone might come after him.

That's what I've got, and time is running short. Anone want to offer ideas to help connect all the dots?

Re: Help me build my Gameday event!

Okay, here's Michael, our version of Lex. This is another PC that I thinking will need to duck for cover when the fighting starts, but should still be able to handle himself.

Michael

Player:

Total Character Cost: 250

Disadvantage Points: 100

Base Points: 150

Experience Required: 0

Total Experience Available: 0

Experience Unspent: 0

Re: Help me build my Gameday event!

Okay, here's Sam the speedster, modeled somewhat after Smallville's Pete. My main concern here is that he doesn't have any resistant defenses. I'm hoping that his ability to simply not get hit compensates.

Sam

Player:

Total Character Cost: 250

Disadvantage Points: 100

Base Points: 150

Experience Required: 0

Total Experience Available: 0

Experience Unspent: 0

Re: Hero System is Just Alright With Me

D&D rewards such "choices" combat not-withstanding.

The reason I balk at this argument is that I've seen it used against just about every system I've played, and it never jibes with my personal experience. I've been in arguments where people call HERO a munchkin's paradise for min-maxers and, yes, even the old saw about "it's just a glorified miniatures combat wargame".

IME, it has MUCH more to do with the group. It's particularly irrelevant when talking about 3.x, which does not give experience for killing things or accumulating treasure.

Re: Hero System is Just Alright With Me

Uhm... thanks... but what they heck are you talking about? Story hour?

The Secret World story hour... though I guess "story hour" is ENWorld talk for "narrative posts detailing your cool campaign," so it might be unfamiliar.

Re: Hero System is Just Alright With Me

Not only that' date=' but WOTC has openly declared that it builds it's system and write's it's supplements to support the idea of "system mastery."[/quote']

And they are unique in this regard?

 

By this they mean that the game rewards the players who read all the material' date=' spend all the time trying out the different permutations of feats and skills and whatever... how best to go along the EXP Leveling up track, etc.[/quote']

I have yet to play in a game where intimate familiarity with supplements made any difference.

 

The idea is that any game system can be played in any style (Gamist' date=' Narrativist, Simulationist) but some support one style better than others.[/quote']

I can't argue with that, really. I don't know that this proves that D&D is all about hack n' slash and nothing else, though.

 

To play it another way often requires changing or ignoring vast amounts of the system.

I have yet to notice this.

 

They send mixed messages' date=' like D&D, that says "Role Playing" but has no real mechanics or reward system that encourages play beyond "slash and grab and level up." Again, you CAN play D&D in other ways... but it's a chore, as almost every rule tries to drag you back into a very Gamist (IMO) style.[/quote']

This is one of the oldest saws whipped out agianst D&D, and I still don't buy it. I find it a particularly meaningless argument when used in reference to 3.x.

 

I guess we're drifting, here. I still love your story hour, RDU!