Joe Walsh

"Nerd Rage" can be awful. I've indulged in it more times than I like. 

One of the things the 1980 article mentioned was people writing "Cancelled" on convention sign-up sheets for games using systems they didn't like. "I don't like that game, so no one should be able to play it" is such an awesome attitude...

Yeah its all rep, not real comparison.  Even making a Savage Worlds character requires significant math and work to figure out.  Its just what people learned and how they learned, not the complexity of the rules (unless you go really crazy like Phoenix Command).  Hero has a rep of being crazy complicated, so its considered bad now.  D&D has a rep of being simple despite being no more simple than Hero, so people prefer it.

To be fair, HERO is fairly complicated in comparison to the rules-light games favored by most of the rpg.net TRO crowd. But, yeah, if GURPS can find a way to thrive in the current environment (with a new PDF supplement and an issue of a dedicated magazine every month), so can HERO.

(To those who say GURPS isn't thriving, I ask how many RPGs out there get a new first-party supplement and a new issue of a dedicated magazine every month?  My guess is, maybe one or two other than GURPS.)

No surprise there, but I'm glad it's been announced.

I was reading an old issue of Different Worlds the other day, and there was an opinion piece in it imploring gamers to stop with all the 'system snobbery': denigrating systems they don't play or even have never played.

The article was published in 1980, and as I read it I marveled at how little has changed in that regard.

What a great idea!

(I'll never understand network programming. Buy 24 episodes, spread them over 9 months. Sometimes broadcast a new episode, sometimes a repeat, and sometimes a different show entirely. Require the eyeballs you're trying to sell to your advertisers to first look at a TV listing before tuning in. Success?)

Just as a point of potential interest, iOS/Mac OS X software tools (including virtualized testbed versions of the various i-devices) are free for Mac OS X users. Apple makes some very, very good software tools and they provide them free to their users.

I understand about the initial cost of Mac hardware, but just thought I'd mention that.

Yeah, it's easy to skew things toward yourself (and/or your most loyal customers) without realizing how that will seem to others.

It's also easy to be misled by nostalgia and fading memories.

I started playing Hero System back when Champions 2e was current. I upgraded to 3e, then when 4e came out I went hog wild. The BBB was my bible. I ran a ton of sessions with it and amassed a pretty big library of support materials.

More recently, I decided to go back and re-read the 4e Rulesbook closely. Turns out that in addition to the published errata, there's about one editing error per page. And some of the Powers are kind of hard to understand RAW if you're not already familiar with them. In short, it's far from the ultimate HERO bible that I remembered it being.

Of course, that's why 5e was necessary. It's basically 4e but with lots of explanations and thought-out edge cases. FRED is even moreso (yeah, some things moved around from one category to another and so on between editions, but on the whole 4e, 4e Deluxe, 5e, and FRED are remarkably similar).

Of course, by the time FRED came out we had a huge tome with tiny writing to explain a game that was, at its heart, a couple of hundred pages long. But those explanations and examples are there for a good reason.

Next we came to 6e which did make some more significant changes to parts of the system, but really nothing terribly radical in my view. Not like the changes in so many other games over the years.

But, yeah, it became a two-volume behemoth. It's not really all that many more pages than FRED, but they are much thicker. And I believe there's more whitespace. I doubt the word count is radically different.

Even so, two volumes is a hard sell to newbies. GURPS has the same issue. SJ Games has taken to mentioning in their marketing materials that you really only need volume 1 to get started (since it does include a basic combat system in its appendix).

I'm glad 6e1/6e2 were produced and I'm glad I own them. I'm glad the much smaller CC exists now, and I own it (as well as FHC). I just hope it's enough to keep the game alive...

The online store still has 214 copies available.

Oh, they're still available at Hero's store?  For some reason I was thinking they'd sold their copies. I should have checked!

Well, it'll probably be a while before we see 6e1/6e2 available via POD, if my theory is correct.

How's the availability of 6e2 these days?  Have the channels sold through all of those as well? 

(Last year, I was kind of hoping that if 6e2 sold through, the POD option may come into play. I can see not doing POD if your channel partners are still trying to sell their remaining stock.)

Your Samsung comparison is not apples-to-apples because if you go to Samsung support you can get questions answered in official terms of each thing Samsung sells (where it's old and no longer sold ... or is still presently sold) -- but if you come here you can ONLY get questions answered in official terms for product that is no longer sold in hardcopy (i.e. 6e 1/2) -- and can't get official responses to those that are still for sale in hardcopy (i.e. Champions Complete).

 

When it comes to a discussion about the status of Hero System's heatlh, I believe it absolutely matters whether people can buy 6e 1/2 ... just as it matters whether or not people can get clarifying questions answered when it comes to what has been sold AND what is presently sold.  Personally, I think it speaks volumes about Hero System's health that you:

• CANNOT get answers in terms of 5e clarifications (responses seem to come only in 6e form)
• ​CANNOT get answers with references to the hardcopy that is presently sold, here (Champions Complete, for example)
• CANNOT buy new/unused hardcopy of 6e 1/2
• CANNOT easily/reliably POD 6e because 6e PDF's have no explicit statement within them allowing for POD

Those things add up to a scenario where bringing newcomers to the game is tough ... and where newcomers have problems getting clarifications to the rules ... assuming they can get their hands on the rules, themselves.

We seem to be talking at cross-purposes, so I'll just bow out of that aspect of the ongoing discussion.

I hear what you're saying. But what I'm saying is that it doesn't matter whether people can currently buy 6e1/6e2. People did buy them in the past. Steve is willing to answer those people's questions. That is a good thing.

And it's an entirely different question than whether Hero Games should provide some sort of Q&A for Champions Complete and/or Fantasy Hero Complete.

As to it being confusing, I would expect people to be able to handle differentiating versions these days. If I go to a Samsung support forum, I have no problem with there being discussion of the Galaxy S7 even though I have an S6 (or vice versa). People encounter stuff like that all the time now.

I agree that it would be nice if the authors of the Complete rulebooks were here to answer customer questions. But, I don't see why Steve Long's support of customers of the version of the rules he wrote is a bad thing, or why he should provide support for a version of the rules he didn't write. I don't think it's necessary or helpful to use Steve's generosity against him.

Hero's very good at granular detail, and not shabby at other things too. But it does take a pretty big time investment to really get value out of it, and not everybody's that into granularity. Also, it hasn't always done the best job of communicating to potential players why it's awesome and worth the trouble; specifically, if you like detail, but not supers, you might pass on Hero. And that'd be a shame.

Yeah, the barriers to entry are pretty high for HERO. And it's not alone in that. The other old-line generic RPGs have the same problem. There are some variations between them: GURPS has a free, small-but-workable version of the rules (GURPS Lite) to help ease the transition, along with a great guide to GMing GURPS. BRP has an excellent and free quickstart edition as well as numerous specific implementations of the game engine over the years in various genres. On the other hand, HERO has use of a well-known and marketable property in the Champions brand. Still, none of them have what the currently successful generic RPGs (FATE, Savage Worlds) have: less baggage, a much smaller and much cheaper ruleset, and plenty of ready-to-run campaigns available.

Hmm. Well, some of the upcoming third-party releases sound like they have potential to be along the lines of what zslane is talking about:

http://www.herogames.com/index.html/_/hero-system-news/2016-third-party-hero-system-release-schedule-r110

Particularly:

    •    Journey to the Center of the Earth! - High Rock Press, 2016 Q2 Kickstarter
    •    [Name-To-Be-Announced Science Fiction Setting] - Beautifulharmony Multimedia, Q3
    •    Extinction Event Campaign Guide - Mad Ferret, 2016 Q3 Kickstarter
    •    [Name-To-Be-Announced Espionage Campaign] - Beautifulharmony Multimedia, 2016 Q4
    •    Tomb Of The Shadow King (Adventure for Fantasy Hero)
    •    Dead Orc Pass, a City Campaign Book for Fantasy Hero
 

I wonder what the licensing terms are like for doing a Hero System campaign product that doesn't use Champions IP.

Yes, indeed. Show them the possibilities. But how does one do that?

 

It is my belief that the most effective, indeed perhaps the only way today to do that is through the lens of a must-play campaign setting.

I don't own Monster Hunters, but isn't that along the lines of what you're talking about? Did it do well?

I understand your point, but I do appreciate that Mr. Long makes himself available to answer questions about his work. If only the authors of CC and FHC had a similar forum...

True. You can fight the negative memes all you want, but in the end people need a positive reason to play something. And a uniquely interesting and fun game world is a great way to provide that.

Unfortunately, other than licensed properties, it's hard to come up with a compelling world and get it noticed.

I know for money reasons it would never happen, but it's fun to think that since Hero System is no longer tied to Champions, it would be reasonable for there to be Marvel Hero and/or DC Hero product lines. "The Marvel Cinematic Universe Role-Playing Game, powered by Hero System" sounds good to me. Lots of licensed photos from the movies and TV shows, a big tome with the overall view, a book for each TV show or movie, perhaps with PDF updates after each season or sequel.
 

Heck, I'd buy iZombie Hero in a heartbeat.

Realistically, though, it'd have to be something like the Western Shores Campaign, only more hip 'n' happenin', like Necessary Evil did for the supers RPG genre (not that similar stories hadn't been done before; this one just hit it right, right now).

The real issue, wrt 6e1/6e2 as I see it, is that when people say they want hard copies of those two volumes they almost always mean they want the original full-color hardcover editions. It seems that the moment one points out that softcover POD copies (with B&W interior pages, like all the other core system books) can be made cheaply, they backpedal and turn their noses up at the idea. Those 6e hardcovers are impressive, to be sure, but it is possible to get that all-important game material in printed form for relatively little money if one is willing to forego the Super Deluxe Hardcover With Full Color Glossy Heavyweight Pages format.

That's a good point. The FLGS issue is puzzling to me as well. "I can't get Hero System at my FLGS."  Well, no. But what current RPGs can you get there? One? Two? Both off in some dusty corner on a single small shelf, far from the action, no doubt.

Sometimes I wish Hero offered the 6e1 and 6e2 PDFs with cover and spine images in Lulu format so people could POD their own copies. Other times I think it would only matter to those of us who would POD them just to have them because we want all things Hero.

With some incredible exceptions like Exalted 3rd edition. I'm actually iffy on the whole "Simple is what everyone wants". For one thing simple is highly subjective. For me and some others I know M and M isn't any "simpler" than Hero just has its complexity in different places, place that might click better with some than others. 

 

Hero has long had this stigma attached to that is the Calculus of RPGs while system that are arguably at least as dense have gotten a general pass or at least less static about it. 

I'm not terribly familiar with Exalted 3rd and M&M. I've looked into them and neither seemed particularly compelling to me (I am careful about getting into new systems; I have a select group of systems I absolutely love, and I want any new RPG to fit into a significant niche left unclaimed by those favorite systems -- otherwise it's not worth spending the time and money on it). When I did looked into M&M, it seemed like a system that would be disappointing and frustrating to me as a Hero fanatic, sort of like unknowingly spending the evening with your spouse's twin.

However, I do think there are simpler, faster-playing systems out there that offer superhero roleplaying as a genre. Savage Worlds comes to mind. I'm not saying it is better for supers than Champions (I wouldn't say that about any system), but it does deliver on its promise of being quicker to pick up and play, and it does have a supers genre supplement and an enthusiastic community of devoted players. Add to that its clever campaign system (the Plot Point system) and I'd say it serves as a pretty good model of how to do "simpler" without sacrificing too much detail. Whereas I feel FATE is too simple and abstract, I think Savage Worlds pretty much hits the sweet spot overall.

Yeah, Savage Worlds is pretty darned popular. It's got a cheap entry point ($10, IIRC), you can read the core rules in a few hours, character generation is quick and easy, and it has some really fantastically fun subsystems. They do have the an issue with combat stun that they've worked on, and character differentiation can be an issue, but overall it's a decent, light-weight system with great support. (As for FATE...well...it's free and well supported, and it is narratively strong enough to satisfy those who want mechanical support for that...uh...aspect. But, yeah, it's not everyone's cup of tea (including me)).

In my Savage Worlds phase I tried out the superhero genre supplement, and I agree it's probably good enough for most. Many people seem to love the Necessary Evil campaign world as well. These days, I go for SUPERS! Revised when it comes to quick-n-dirty superhero gaming. It doesn't get as much respect as its competitors, unfortunately. But we've had wild fun using it for one-offs and short story-arcs.

But I do not think that Champions needs to become, or should become diluted in any way to become like Savage Worlds. I think the Hero System should remain crunchy and complex and detailed and not lose its identity. I just think it desperately needs high quality game worlds for new players to pick up and run in, with lots of pre-built stuff to get them started. In that regard, I think the Plot Point concept from Savage Worlds is worth emulating.

I agree. There's probably only room for one Savage Worlds. And the world needs something richer, like Hero System.

I sometimes wonder if the "Hero's hard" meme could be fought with a counter-meme. If a popular blogger picked it up and wrote compellingly about the game and how fun it was to create a character, how great the combat system is, how well the game handles any genre, how simple it is in non-combat play, and how flexible it is in emulating what we see and read in genre media of all sorts. How you could do Game of Thrones or Star Wars or Jessica Jones or any number of other popular stories with it. I wonder if that would have any significant impact.

Because to me, the fact is that you don't have to squeeze every point for maximum benefit in character generation if that's not your idea of fun. And if you're in a group of adults, it shouldn't be necessary at all. ("Damn, Bob got twice the kick-ass out of his 250 points. I'm doomed to lameness for the next six months. I hate this game" should have been left behind with the pimples and sexual frustration of the early teen years IMO.) Character generation should be a creative, fun activity that players look forward to, and combats should be either incredibly fun or incredibly rare, depending on your tastes.

Yeah, quick and easy is what people want these days. Even D&D bowed to it with 5e, in terms of simplifying several of the mechanics. And that's fine. I enjoy that type of game sometimes.

I'm glad Hero survives and I hope someday it becomes popular again. But for now, I'm satisfied with what I have (which is shelves full of stuff).

Hero stuff from any edition is easy enough to get these days, and with just a few exceptions it's relatively cheap. No, it's not stocked at FLGSes, but then very little beyond D&D and its variants is. You can go to eBay or Amazon and pick up used copies of anything from Champions 1e on if you're patient (and, in a few cases, have money to burn). 6e PDFs are pretty cheap and easily available.

Maybe it would help to have some sort of simplified version out there, but honestly I doubt it. People who are open to Hero have CC available to them. CC isn't huge and intimidating, yet it is a complete version of Hero System. I doubt simplifying it beyond that would convince many of the folks who want quick and easy to try it, and it almost certainly wouldn't bring in the neophiles who are always looking for the next awesome thing. Hero's old, and its warts (real and imagined) are known.

Hero System is in an interesting position in the market. The current version is relatively large, but there never was a simple version of it that the OSR people could latch onto. 1e's chargen is pretty much the same as 6e's when it comes to complexity. That's the thing: Hero System has been remarkably stable for its entire life. An amazing feat that speaks well of the game's design. Sure, we can talk about various changes, but to an outsider that stuff's minutia.

It's also in-between the pick-from-an-enormous-list chargen model most closely associated with GURPS, and the keep-it-simple model of OD&D and many newer games, where just a few things define your character and you basically wing it from there. Hero System's method of defining every aspect of your character by creatively combining a relatively few elements is different, and can be daunting to those not used to thinking that way. Whereas in some games  writing little more than "I am Superman" on the character sheet is enough to define the character, in Hero you have to think about each of Superman's abilities, decide which Power most closely resembles them, decide where to place each on Hero System's infinite power scale, decide what advantages and limitations apply, and then figure out what each costs. That's a lot of work to most people. Some just get discouraged and decide to play something easier.

That's just the way it is. Not everyone is willing and able to do those things, nor have they ever been. I wish it were otherwise, but I've resigned myself to it.

Thankfully, I can still delight my friends with great gaming experiences using my Hero System library and my creativity.

What surprised me was how expensive fresh vegetables were. A radish plate for $0.25 is pretty expensive compared to the entire steak meal for $1.50.

I'm more annoyed by the fact that Merlin should have bled out after Ollie chopped off his hand. Nobody rushed to cauterize the wound, or apply a turnicate, or take him to an ER. In the time it took to hand over the R'as ring to Nyssa and have all that silly "Thank you, husband," banter, Merlin would have died from blood loss.

But Merlin's the magic pixie dust assassin somethingerother mumble.

If you don't own the original Strike Force, you can get it for $10.00 as part of the Kickstarter. It has some 3E character sheets, which is about as close as you're going to get to 1E material.

Thanks, I hope everyone does just that!  In my case, I do own the original, but I did get into the Kickstarter at the $100 level, so I should be getting all that, right?

As far as I can tell, no. Everything that's in there is HERO 5E. 

 

Wait, no. There's Rogue's Gallery articles, so those could be...  (hmm...) 4E+.

Awwww...that's too bad...but not surprising after all these years.  Thank you for checking, though!

It seems that he updated things as the versions updated. So the character sheets you will see in the book are taken from the 5E character sheets I found in his files.

Are character sheets from previous editions included in the archive? It would be nifty to see the first few characters he built in 1e when he was preparing for his review of Champions for Space Gamer.