JJR

Re: Good bye

I too am pulling off of these message boards. I have found far too many posters on these boards to be exceptionally rude and condescending toward anyone expressing a differing opinion. These boards are now becoming as bad as rpg.net. Our gm has been wanting to switch over to M&M for some time now. Only a handful of us have been resisting the switch, and I have now thrown my vote over to M&M. At least on the M&M boards the posters only attack non-M&M trolls, not each other.

Re: High End Cannoical Character in Champions Universe

What about those who already *have* worked their way up to the proverbial red dragon?? The PCs aren't the first heroes in the setting.

There are mega-heroes in the game, they are just not mega enough for you. We already have 500-600 point hero examples. What you want to see is Champions 3000 characters running around in the main champions universe. I am not interested in seeing a team which can defeat Dr. Destroyer by themselves, as we have already read that a weaker Dr. Destroy was fighting scores of them during the Battle of Detroit.

Except that if they evolve that slowly, they *never will defeat those threats.

I believe the way lower-powered heroes defeat higher-powered villains is by exploiting their weaknesses, not by merely trying to pound them down. That is how the X-men can defeat Magneto or Juggernaut. That is how the Fantastic Four defeats Galactus or Dr. Doom. That is how the Avengers defeat Ultron. That is how Dr. Strange defeats Dormamu. Most of the X-men are built on 400 points or less; the Fantastic Four on 500 or less; and the Avengers probably have only Thor and Ironman built on more than 650 points, in my opinion. Not every comic book character is some mega-points monster, and most do not need to be

Who said anything about upping the power levels of most of the villains?? Mega heroes *should* be able to casually handle Pulsar. . . and shouldn't regularly encounter him, because they are dealing with more serious threats, like Takofanes' undead hoard, or the latest alien invasion.

That was my point though. There are only some 20-25 mega-villains currently in print which are a challenge to a mega-hero group. Most of those 25 mega-villains could not stand up to the Champions 3000 team - I use them as an example of a 750 point hero team like you would want to see the Sentinels or Justice Squadron. So at that point you are left with either creating all new mega-villains or upping existing villains into mega-villains. So you are back to the same point of a 3 hit hero going against a 3 hit villain.

How about "making sense within the context of the setting"?? The advantage of being a high level hero is that you *are* a high level hero, in the setting.

As I said above, we do see high powered heroes in the game, just not as high as you want, but established continuity is that most of the mega-villains fight multitudes of heroes, not single teams. With heroes in the 500-600 point range that makes sense within the continuity of the universe.

Unfortunately, you are incorrect. Unless played as morons, the major villains in the setting are not beatable by 350 pointers. And the fact that the majority of the villains are much lower level doesn't change things, because *someone* has to deal with those megavillains.

Again, as I said above, most mega-villains in the comics are defeated by exploiting a weakness or by finding something which can harm them. A very small percentage are defeated by sheer force. That approach is part of the established comic book genre and I happy that my gm uses it. It is much more fun to find a way to get my hands on the ultimate nullifier to stop Galactus than it is to punch his lights out, in my opinion.

Re: High End Cannoical Character in Champions Universe

I personally do not believe the game needs mega-heroes to get the job done. I believe the champions universe is designed very much like a D&D game: meaning you work your way up to Dr. Destroyer in the same way that a 1st level character works his way up to going after an ancient red dragon.

Having high-powered npcs around, in my opinion, does nothing but make the players feel inadequate. I do not believe having 1,000 point characters walking around inspire the players in any way because those players know it will be highly unlikely they will ever gain 650 experience points to become one of those mega-heroes. It is much more entertaining for players to defeat those major threats slowly as they evolve, again in my opinion.

I know many gamers get their enjoyment out of playing those mega-heroes who can defeat everything with a single stellar blast but that does not interest me in the least. Out of the 150 villains currently published only about 10-15% of them cannot be defeated by a group of 350 point characters. If a gm is required to double the power-level of every villain in the book to make them a challenging fight for those mega-heroes then you are really back to the same square as if you are playing a 350 point character. If it takes "starting hero" 3 hits to defeat Pulsar and "mega-hero" 3 hits to defeat mega-Pulsar then nothing has really been gained in the game, again in my opinion.

When I look at the Champions 3000 team I see a group who can probably defeat Dr. Destroyer. That does not encourage me, as my vision of Dr. Destroyer is of a Thanos-like character whom dozens of heroes need to go against, not just a handful. I also see the Champions 3000 team fighting groups with individuals like Arcane with his 250 point VPP. In those instances all I can envision is a 6 hour combat session while all the players roll and add their 20d6 attacks and Arcane rolls his 50d6 attacks.

I have never seen the advantage to having more powerful characters. As I said above, a three-hit foe is a three-hit foe no matter what power-level your character is. And you are still a three-hit foe to them as well because their damage levels have been increased too. The only advantage I can see is that mega-heroes can do more environmental damage; which is something that can easily be fixed by some of the simple house rules I have seen mentioned on these boards.

I would enjoy seeing a book of superheroes published for the champions universe. I really would not expect, or want, to see very many of those heroes over 600 points, and I would expect the vast majority of them to fall within the 400-500 point range. It seems as though the majority of the treats within the champions universe were designed to be combated by 350-450 point characters and I would not want to see that change.

Re: The 'Elminster' of Hero: Harbringer of Justice?

In his 4e incarnation' date=' HoJ was almost 900 points. Even trading out the cosmic gun pool for a more normal gadget pool isn't going to cut more than a 100 off that total, and there is some stuff probably absent before, like Combat Luck, that really should be added.[/quote']

I would imagine you are looking at cutting at least 50-75 points off of Harbinger's characteristics.I doubt he will be the 30 dexterity, 33 intelligence, 38 presence, 6 speed character in the 5E version. Then depending upon how equipment will be handled within the sub-genre of Hudson City - I do not know if it is a heroic level game or a low-powered superheroic one - you can easily be looking at dropping another 150-200 points from his powers sections. As I stated above, I expect to see the character in the 400-500 point range. But again, all those skills, talents, and perks are expensive within the system.

 

My issues with Harbinger was not that he had too many skills or had too many points. My issues were that he was a champions character in a dark champions setting. As long as Harbinger is doing the same general damage and resisting with the same general defenses as the player characters I do not care if he is built on 200 or 500 more points.

Re: The 'Elminster' of Hero: Harbringer of Justice?

You know, something just occured to me.

 

When he gets written up in Hudson City ( AFAIK, thats where he is appearing ), the Harbinger of Justice well then become the highest level "hero" yet published.

 

*barf*

I believe Quasar, Victory and Dr. Silverback all clocked in at a tad over 600 points with Mentiac, Gladiator, and Nightwind in the 500's. It is hard to say where Harbinger will fit into the grand scheme of things.

Re: The 'Elminster' of Hero: Harbringer of Justice?

I do believe the 4E version of Harbinger was too powerful but I do not want to see the 5E version as an example character. Example characters are for the genre books. Settings should be about the characters as they will be used in the setting not as examples, in my opinion.

I am not completely sure what the new Hudson City book will be encompassing: whether it is street-level supers like Batman or whether it is just vigilante-style non-costumed "heroes." If the former then I believe Harbinger can be built as a powerful npc in the 400-500 point range without too much trouble. If the latter then I would expect so see Harbinger built in the 200-300 point range. Harbinger is supposed to represent the epitome of the style of character, just as Batman does in Gotham, and all of those skills and abilities are expensive.

Re: Wwycd?

What Would Your Character Do.

Re: DEMON cover previews out!

RE: Steve Trevor. Interesting note: Lyle Wagnor (spelling?) is very conspicuous by his absence from the WW Season 1 DVD collection's special features.

Lyle Waggoner has stated publicly, many times, that he wants to put the Wonder Woman period behind him, choosing to instead promote his time on the Carol Burnette Show.

Over the last 25 years Lyle Waggoner has made a fortune with his company Star Waggons, which provided resting/changing trailers for movie stars to use during movie productions.

Re: So, out of the New York Hero teams, Which would you kill/Maim/Destroy?

This is' date=' by itself, enough to make you ask questions -- specifically, questions like "Why the hell isn't Unity dead yet?" Seeing as how it would take him about maybe eight Phases to slay them all...[/quote']

Because it is not "in genre" for Dr. Destroyer to do that any more than it is in genre for Darkseid to boom tube into Metropolis and vaporize Superman in 3 seconds with his omega beams.

 

 

 

Not if Skarn even halfway intelligently uses home field advantage, as well as combining VPPs with his oldest son for some fugly ritual magic. Remember, Skarn can re-adjust the laws of physics in the Congeries, pretty much at will -- which means it really sucks to be a tech user there.

Again you over look the fact that I am not talking about Dr. Destroyer fighting all of the Congeries. I am talking about him fighting Skarn. You always want to add more foes to the conflict to somehow strengthen your position.

 

 

Destroyer only lost the Battle of Detroit because he /wanted/ to.

That is the second time you have said that, and this is the second time I will ask you to provide the reference from one of the books where it states Dr. Destroyer "wanted" to lose the battle of Detroit.

 

 

Remember that in the 'canon' combat, as opposed to yours, Gravitar will fight intelligently... and use maneuvers such as Multiple-Power Attacks, and Rapid Fire.

First, thank you for being arrogant and condescending. You have no idea how we play the game but have the audacity to tell me that our GM is not using the character intelligently. And people wonder why non-Hero gamers do not like the fans.

 

Second, you just showed a perfect example of the difference between war gaming and genre gaming. I have read four-color comic books for 33 years now and in all that time I cannot think of a dozen examples where the characters within the comic books use multiple-powers attacks in the manor you are suggesting here against a super powered foe. In the comic books an MPA would be Mr. Fantastic engulfing one thug within his body while punching another. A Rapid Fire attack would be Ironman shooting two repulsor rays at two thugs to quickly finish them off. Dr. Doom does not unleash his mystic blast and his armor blast at the same time or Rapid Fire one attack multiple times on Mr. Fantastic, even if the "game rules" would allow it. Actions like those are out of genre but are prevalent within miniature battles-style games.

Re: So, out of the New York Hero teams, Which would you kill/Maim/Destroy?

I still want to know how exactly anyone built on 350 points and usual limits on DCs and such is supposed to even scratch Dr Destroyer' date=' or even Gravitar.[/quote']

I do not plan on continuing the debate but I do want to address this point. You keep mentioning Dr. Destroyer, but surely you do understand that Dr. Destroyer is the exception to the system? When discussing Dr. Destroyer you are not talking about a megavillain, you are discussing a "cosmic entity" power-level character.

 

Dr. Destroyer can go to the Congeries and defeat Skarn on his own ground. Dr. Destroyer is more powerful than the Dragon Incarnate, and outside of the presence attack would be more powerful than the Dragon Bound as well. I would put money on Dr. Destroyer against the "tree throne" of Tyrannon in Thulkos.

 

Dr. Destroyer is virtually the top of the villain food-chain. He is not designed to fight 350-500 point characters. He is designed to be a plot device bringing together all of the world's finest to defeat him.

 

To put it another way: we know in canon that Gravitar is smart enough to trash Eurostar effortlessly. If she's smart enough to render all of them helpless, she's smart enough that a team of seriously weaker 350 point heroes are headed to crushedville.

Our 400 point team trashed her. And you cannot really use "canon" descriptions of combats because I do not believe if the combat were actually run that Gravitar would defeat Eurostar.

Re: So, out of the New York Hero teams, Which would you kill/Maim/Destroy?

... you'd think after the first couple, they'd stop just walking out and challenging you to solo battle.

 

God, even Gravitar is smart enough to hire people to help draw fire, and/or attack from surprise.

 

Well, glad to hear that your DM has really bad dice luck with those Tactics rolls... would that we be as lucky!

That is the point of solo villains, is it not? There are certain codes within the genre. In my opinion to play a proper superhero game you need to follow those codes. Too many people play the game like it is a tactical miniature battle rather than an emulation of the superhero genre. In my opinion you need to play the villains as they would be represented in the comics you are trying to emulate, and in the instance of the Champion Universe, later silver/early bronze age feel.

Re: So, out of the New York Hero teams, Which would you kill/Maim/Destroy?

Dr Destroyer could kill as many 350 point heroes as you feel like siccing on him. Take another look at his stats.

 

The same applies for the other megavillains. And then you have the master villains of lesser calibur, who are "only" capable of beating entire normal teams of 350 pointers at once.

I did not say every superhero in the world was 350 points. I said that not every superhero needs to be 500+ points to be effective. Dr. Destroyer is the rare exception, not the norm. The only other megavillain who comes close to Dr. Destroyer is Takofanes. All the others are far below him in power. All the others are within the realms of being defeated by slightly above average heroes. Our group has 7 characters all in the 400 point range now and we have been literally walking through the villains in CKC. Even the megavillains cannot withstand 35-40 attacks per turn in the 13-14d6 range.

Re: So, out of the New York Hero teams, Which would you kill/Maim/Destroy?

Erm' date=' as was recently revealed in canon, Destroyer was deliberately fighting to lose. The whole thing was just Destroyer stage-managing an epic "death" for himself on-camera, so he could take a decade off to hide and do some *serious* prep time.[/quote']

In what book does it state that? I understand that Dr. Destroyer had an escape plan and other contingencies planned if he failed but I do not believe the Battle of Detroit was not a serious attempt to conquer. It just did not work and Dr. Destroyer was forced to revert to plan 2.

 

Doctor Destroyer is, just with himself and his own agent organization, a First World military superpower. Add in the other megavillains and you wonder what the hell they do with themselves all day, that they haven't conquered yet.

 

Hell, I can think of three uses for Takofanes power pool that could single-handedly trash the entire bleedin' biosphere...

Most of the other megavillains are just not that powerful. The megavillains are more powerful than the 5 champions but only Takofane would be able to stand up to the Champions and the Millennium City 8 combined. Mechanon would get his butt handed to him based on the cover of Champions Universe.

 

As I stated in another thread, our 7 characters are all in the 400 point range and we have walked through almost every major character currently in print. Not even the megavillains can withstand 35 attacks per turn, assuming they are slightly above the 12d6 average

 

Put every published hero in Millennium City, all 25 of them...

 

... vs. a team-up of Menton, Graviton, and Viperia.

That is why I stated the other megavillains work indepedently.

Re: So, out of the New York Hero teams, Which would you kill/Maim/Destroy?

In that case' date=' than DOJ has decided to follow the path of insanity, as there is no way the various megavillains shouldn't have conquered the world by now.[/quote']

The megavillains do not conquer everything because there are only a handful of them and too many superheroes opposing them. There are 25 superheroes in Millennium City alone, not include the player-characters. There are more than that in New York. 5-6 mega-villains each working independently cannot compete against the assembled host that could amass against them when the world is in dire straights. Dr. Destroyer proved that in his battle in Detroit.

Re: Blocking

A block covers a great many special effects. It is not just hitting your arm against theirs. It can also be side-stepping or putting something between you and the blow. That is why no strength-versus-strength check is required.

And Aunt May with her 2 cv and 0 leves probably would never roll the 3 to be able to avoid the Hulk's blow.

Re: So, out of the New York Hero teams, Which would you kill/Maim/Destroy?

Diamond was 430 points *40 years ago*' date=' and Meteorman III's point total makes precisely zero sense given even a slightly reasonable XP rate. Whats more, having the World's Greatets Heroes being only slightly more powerful than rank newbies *does not work in a world with megavillains.*[/quote']

I seriously doubt you will see a much differently designed Diamond when he is updated for the Sentinels than what you see of him in the Fab Five. It is possible but I do not get the impression that DOJ tends to follow the Strike Force premise of character design. It seems to me DOJ takes the continuity approach to character design, meaning most characters in comic books are static and do not deviate from established power levels once created.

 

In comics only a rare few characters have changed in the last 40 years. Now when I say few have changed I mean within their established continuity. We cannot include times when either Marvel or DC decided to refit their characters and continuity entirely. Technological heroes, Ironman, and those who have undergone radiations accidents, Phoenix, are the rare exceptions.

 

I would also say that characters do not need to be super-powerful to combat major menaces. It has already been established that scores of heroes fought Dr. Destroyer when he destroyed Detroit. There are no heroes designed to fight him one-on-one or in small groups. Not as far as my understanding of the champions universe is anyway. Most of the other megavillains are not too far out of the league of most characters in the 400 point range.

Re: So, out of the New York Hero teams, Which would you kill/Maim/Destroy?

Well' date=' if your players are doing 375 point characters, best team to replace, if any, is Nova, since they are the only one that could credibly be replaced by such low level heroes.[/quote']

Diamond of the Sentinels is only 430 points, and Meteorman III served with the Sentinels for a decade and is only 380 points. I do not believe point totals are the basis for power within the game as it currently exists.

Re: So, out of the New York Hero teams, Which would you kill/Maim/Destroy?

New York also has the Nova team as well. Crowded place there.

My understanding is that the Sentinels are similar in make-up to the Avengers. The Justice Squadron are similar to the JSA, and Nova is similar to the New Warriors. UNITY is a generic team which works for until. I do not remember reading about 9/11 happening in the champions universe, but that does not mean it did not.

I think there is room for additional teams. Teams really do not need to clash or intermix to any extent. If you look at how seldom the Avengers, Defenders, New Warriors, Fantastic Four, and various X-men groups intermixed you can easily see that there is always room for one more.

Re: Storn's Art & Characters thread.

Another great picture Mr. Cook. I plan on stealing him for something.

Just thought I would mention that your Demon cover is awesome. That is, in my humble opinion, the best cover you have done yet. Great work all around!

Re: Jet City Champions Campaign Log

1959: Five Americans, entering space in a homemade rocketship to protect Earth from a comet, are exposed to strange radiation and transformed into the Fabulous Five.

 

Ahem. Copyrights? What copyrights?

 

1938: In October, Earth is invaded by aliens who first land at Grover's Mill, New Jersey. A majority of the New York-area crimefighters team together to defeat the alien tripods.

 

Oops, missed this. Anyone know a good way to get egg off your face?

Yeah, he managed to break the law and do what doj has been asking people on the board not to do. So much for needing to buy Champions Universe for the timeline.

Re: Whatever happened to the Wyvern?

As much as I'd like to see that' date=' I don't know if Steve, Darren and gang would have time to work on a list over the books they're making. It seems like something that might take some time away from their normal work-load ...[/quote']

I made a list in 5 minutes. I doubt it would take Steve any more time then it took me to come up with 20 names of characters he is never planning on using in the new champions universe. At 2 characters per issue of Digital Hero 20 names would be a year's worth.

 

Heroes

Starburst

Crusader

Jaguar

Seeker

Solitaire

Obsidian

Quantum

 

Villains

Neutron

Arc

Bora

White Flame

Pantera

The Whip

Lightning

Thunder

Panda

Raccoon

Beamline

Earthmaster

Halfjack

Power Crusher

Plague

Rainbow Archer

Thok

Radar

Sonar

Re: Negative CSLs (or other NegSLs, I guess) as Adjustment Power

I think I'd rather just stick with a Dex drain or a Flash for that effect. I can't think of a gunshot would that woul impose CV penalties without effecting other uses of Dex as well.

Or you can just purchase the dexterity drain with a limitation: only affects cv, no other aspect of dexterity: -1/4. That would give the buyer the cv penalties without interfering with dexterity rolls or acting time in combat.

Re: Whatever happened to the Wyvern?

Agreed JJR. I think that's why the thread hasn't been started. Folks are waiting to see what Steve says before they post something that would violate anyone's copyrights. At the same time' date=' its nice to see the energy and enthusiasm on the part of the Hero discussion board members who are willing to contribute though.[/quote']

What might be interesting, and benefitial for the company at the same time, is for Steve to make a list of doj owned characters that he never plans on using in the new champions universe. Then interested fans could write up those characters and submit one of two of them to Digital Hero each month for a new Unofficial Champions Universe column. That way doj can make a dollar, the interested authors can make a few dollars for their work, and more fans might show some interest in purchasing or renewing their subscriptions to Digital Hero. That could be a win-win for everyone involved.

Re: Whatever happened to the Wyvern?

Would Steve, Darren and co be able to answer if they would have a problem about people setting up a thread for posting new versions of old characters not so far converted to 5th.

 

Any objections guys?

You need to keep in mind that many of the characters you want to convert are not owned my doj. They cannot give you permission to put write ups for the blood, as an example, on the boards because those characters are owned by Aaron Allston. Most of the characters from the older books were never purchased outright.

There is also the fact that if a fan does post a character doj owns, and doj decided to write up the character for a future book, Wyvern as the example this time, then there can be more accusations of plagiarism from the fans toward doj.

Allowing fans to post doj-owned characters is really not a win-win situation for doj.

Re: JLA - CU Style

Franklin Stone is the president of ACI and makes a good Lex Luthor stand in. I think Skarn is closer to Darkseid. He even has the warrior children like Darkseid. Chantal from shades of black would make a good Morgaine Le Fey. I am not sure about Millennium City being Metropolis but it is as close as you can get I guess.