JJR

Re: Villains, Vandals, and Vermin: Who should be in it?

Case in point - Lady Blue. 12d6 attack meets the standards above' date=' as does her 5 SPD. But she's got 26/28 defenses. That's a significant advantage over a typical character built under the 5E standard superhero guidelines.[/quote']

She is a 3 hit villain. The extra 6-8 defense does nothing for her. 42 – 28 = 14 * 3 = 42. On the third hit she falls. She’s a good fight but no real advantage.

 

Or Thunderbolt. He has standard 20/20 Defenses, and on the surface his attacks are pretty wimpy. But with an 8 SPD and 16d6 Move-Throughs, he can really tear apart a 350-point CU superhero.

Sure, unless he is fighting a brick, a hero with flight, or someone with martial throw.

 

Or Hornet. A 19 DCV character is basically unhittable (using standard guidelines) unless your character is fortunate enough to have AoE/Explosion attacks. Which basically means that AoE characters will paste him, and everyone else will lose.

It’s called spreading 1d6 to hit an area’s 3 dcv.

 

You've also listed some supervillains that aren't designed to be the equivalent of a standard superhero. Brainchild runs from superheroes. Likewise, Cybermind is pretty much useless in a fight (unless one of the superheroes is a robot), and his psych lims back this up.

The point was to list heroes which can be beaten by 350 point heroes, as you think there are not enough of them.

 

What's scary is that Bulldozer is a serious challenge for superheroes created under the standard guidelines, and he's always been meant to be a joke. With 24/24 Defenses, a 30 CON, and 70 STUN, he has a lot of staying power.

You forget that the standard guidelines you keep toting list up to 14d6 attacks as allowed by starting characters. He is not tougher than any other 14d6 character, especially a starting brick.

 

Maybe a third of the characters in the book can give a 350-point hero a decent fight in one-on-one combat, without either trouncing the hero or being stopped into the ground easily. Perhaps another third can be fought by a team of heroes (unfortunately, some are in their own team). The rest are untouchable without raising the campaign guidelines, or just have such odd power writeups that they're unsuitable for the game.

Outside of the 6 master villains in the book none of the villains are untouchable by a standard superhero team. That is a far cry from your 30 untouchable.

Re: FH Grimoire Index

The standard index is just as useful to me. I would not bother to look in the back of the book to see what the range or magic roll minus of a spell is. I would expect the players to have that on their sheets.

Re: Villains, Vandals, and Vermin: Who should be in it?

I'd like to see more villains that 350-point heroes have a prayer of defeating.

Here are 39 of them from ckc that an average 350 point hero can beat one on one:

Warbird

Warcry

Warhead

Warmonger

Warpath

Bloodstone

Black Diamond

Blue Jay

Cheshire Cat

Hummingbird

Psimon

Hypnos

Lancer

Medusa

Torment

Radium

Armadillo

Black Harlequin

Blowtorch

Brainchild

Bulldozer

Cybermind

Esper

Fenris

Foxbat

Herculan

Hornet

Lady Blue

Lazer

Leech

Menagerie

Morningstar

Ogre

Riptide

Stormfront

Thorn

Thunderbolt

Vibron

Zigzag

That is nearly half of the book. Not including the big guns the other 35-40 villains in the book can easily be beaten by 2-6 players in a team.

I really think too many people do not read ckc past the master villains section in the front. Most of the villains in the book have been too weak to stand up to two or more heroes, not too powerful.

Re: Upon Further Review: The Champions

OTOH returning veterans Menton' date=' Firewing, Grond, Dark Seraph and Black Paladin are all measurably more powerful, in offense, defense and versatility.[/quote']

I would disagree with Menton. He is much weaker than his 4e version. He has 2 less speed, 2d6 less ego attack, and the same general mental powers. Grond also does not seem to be much changed. Firewing added a 20d6 eb but the endurance usage is a killer for him.

Re: Upon Further Review: The Champions

I haven't seen the fifth ed version of old rusty bolts, but this isn't how a fourth ed battle would run.

One of the things that made Mechanon dangerous was his MP of weapons geared to handle each unique character type (ie. using entangle on martial artists).

I understand but I was not using combat techniques for the heroes too. Martial artist throws Mechanon to get him prone so brick can put him into a half-nelson and everyone else can pummel him at the lower dcv. There are a lot of team techniques which can be used to defeat Mechanon. I was just using brute force to brute force.

Re: Villains, Vandals, and Vermin: Who should be in it?

I would like to see all new villains. The best parts of ckc for me were the new villains added to champions. I can always redo which ever older villains I want in my world myself. The campaign would also benefit from some additional villain groups too.

Re: Upon Further Review: The Champions

The master vilains of the time werent blatententy in your face gods.

I certain understand from your pervious thread that you think the master villains are over powered but that is really not the case. Dr. Destroyer is the only one. Most others are not. Just running basic numbers we can see that a 6 man team will take out Mechanon in less than a turn.

Mechanon: 7 speed, 30 defense, 18d6 attack, 90 stun

6 heroes: 5 speed, 25 defense, 12d6 attack, 35 stun.

Phase 12: Mechanon hits, stuns and knocks out 1 hero to -3 stun, who loses his attack, but the character will get his free recovery and is at 5 stun. The other 5 heroes attack, and since Mechanon is not defending with his levels he gets hit by 4 of them for a total of 48 stun. Mechanon takes his recovery and is now at 72 stun.

Phase 2: Mechanon hits, stuns, and knocks out a second hero to -3 stun. The hero will be stunned on phase 3 and will recover on phase 5.

Phase 3: First knocked out hero recovers and is at 12 stun. Second knocked out her recovers from being stunned. 4 heroes attack and 3 hit for 36 stun. Mechanon is now to 36 stun.

Phase 4: mechanon hits, stuns, and knocks out a third hero to -3 stun. The hero will be stunned on phase 5 and will recover on phase 8.

Phase 5: First knocked out hero attacks. Second knocked out hero recovers and is at 5 stun. Third knocked out hero recovers from being stunned. 4 heroes attack and 3 hit for a total of 36 stun. Mechanon is at 0 stun.

Phase 6: Mechanon recovers and is at 20 stun.

Phase 7: Mechanon recovers and is at 40 stun.

Phase 8: First knocked out hero burns stun for end to get in a final attack. Second knocked out hero recovers and is at 12 stun. Third knocked out hero recovers and is at 5 stun. 4 heroes attack, 3 hit doing 36 stun. Mechanon is now at 4 stun.

Phase 9: I think you see the writing on the wall.

Most of the master villains cannot withstand some 30 attacks per turn when they are only dishing out 7-8 attacks themselves. The numbers just do not give with that. And the 12d6, 25 defense, 5 speed were 4th edition starting character numbers too. If anything it seems like many villains have gotten weaker, not stronger.

Re: What am I missing, Instant Stand?

I'd like to know what page (in FReD) I can find this rule. The description of the skill Breakfall (page 33) does not mention this use of the skill.

The rule on page 33 states the character can make a roll to land on his feet after knockback or knockdown. If he succeeds he takes no damage and does not waste a half-phase getting up.

Besides, why would anyone pay 5 points for an adder if you could use a 3 point skill to stand up for 0 Phase?

Because skill rolls can fail and adders can put included with the power inside of power frameworks, basically making them free.

Re: Is this Munchkinish?

the only problem here is that FRED specifically states that STR usable at range should not be used and Telekinesis should be used in its place. And I believe that stretching already is considered indirect anyway.

I would just use the stretching myself. You gain the velocity damage from it too. Buying strength with indirect and ranged is just easier than trying to buy it on each martial arts maneuver.

Re: Is this Munchkinish?

I would buy the ranged and indirect on the characters strength not on the martial arts themselves. It would cost more endurance but would make for an interesting special effect.

Re: Now that I've seen Reality Storm

No' date=' but they are a good indicator. And I don't know how you run campaigns, but just looking at the stats, I don't see the Champions winning against Mechanon without a lot of backup. . .[/quote']

I think you've already seen a couple of examples from people in this thread who say their 350-400 point groups are taking down 2 or more Mechanon's in a battle. It's really not that uncommon for that to happen. Run some test combats yourself. You might be surpised how easy Mechanon is to defeat.

Re: Now that I've seen Reality Storm

I'd say the something wrong in that case would be you don't have enough Roleplaying to go with your combat. I mean' date=' sheesh, that's a change the other PCs should notice don't you think? [/quote']

For roleplaying there is a difference. From power level most champions starting characters are interchangeable.

 

It should also be pointed out that the Guard are an npc team, not the player's team. I have a feeling that the Sentinels from the cu also have varying power levels. But from a roleplaying stand point not everyone needs to be the same power levels. The roleplaying is even better when you have such diversity in a group as the Guard has.

Re: Now that I've seen Reality Storm

Isn't this the Game where SFX rules Supreme. So if Blastar does 6d6 NND' date=' and so does Thrash does that make them the same chars? Boring Chars? I say not... Blastar's is described as a Bio-blast disrupting the victim’s nervous system... Thrash's is the classic Brick Trick: Finger Thump... Thumping an unarmored sap in the melon to knock them into oblivion.[/quote']

I agree somewhat, but when every single character in your group has the same speed, does the same damage, has the same defenses, and has the same movement inches to maintain 'balance' then I think something is flawed. Special effects are nice and interesting but if you can remove Sapphire and replace her with Meteorman and no one notices a difference than something is slightly wrong.

Re: Now that I've seen Reality Storm

So is there anyone out there that could tell me if these chars from SAS are getting yanked by the short hairs' date=' or is this really how they are?[/quote']

I don't believe the characters are getting yanked. Your point about Slipstream's endurance is valid but SAS does not use endurance in any viable way. Endurance is an optional rule in SAS so the endurance usage by characters is an oversight.

 

Having played SAS before coming back to champions I think they are fairly accurate representations. I think there is room for color adjustments with the characters after the straight conversions. In the SAS universe Sentinel is supposed to be around a 900 point character and Slipstream is supposed to be around a 300 point character within the SAS universe.

Re: Now that I've seen Reality Storm

And remember my example was of Slipstream (a Flash like char) who couldn't stand up to Impulse (Kid Flash now) let alone the Flash.

I guess what I'm getting at is that without knowing the SAS system, it looks like the other chars in the Guard are just non-combat support for Red Phx & Sentinel.

The characters are combat support. Maybe Slipstream can't fight Iron Duke but he can fight Alice or Janus or other people within in the conflict. Mother Raven is not too powerful but she does have a 30 ego and her mental illusions will almost always go first. I would also hate to be caught by her sun's kiss. Slipstream can dish out 8d6 of damage but he does have a 9 speed.

You can't really compare everyone to Sentinel. He is like Superman. Red Phoenix only dishes out 12d6 of damage. It is not like she will be using her major killing attack on every thug that wanders into her path. The power levels are diverse but with the exception of Sentinel most of the guard are in the 8d6 to 12d6 range.

I personally find groups like the Champions boring. What is the point of diversity when everyone does the same damage and has the same defense level? In combat they all become interchangeable.

Re: EC Concerns... what is legal?

You can bypass hero designer's rules by either turning off 'modifier intelligence' or by using a custom power slot to build the life support side of the power. Those are the only two ways that I know of.

Re: EC Concerns... what is legal?

You can combine 2 powers in one slot and link them. You cannot combine 2 powers in 2 different slots with linked. In hero designer you need to build this composite power by using the 'compound power' power in the powers section.

The problem you are having is that life support is not a legal power for an elemental control. Only powers which cost endurance can be put into an elemental control. If you buy the life support as costs end to activate then it will be accepted by the elemental control.

Re: Now that I've seen Reality Storm

Yeah' date=' but the setting is in desperate need of some higher point heroes to account for why all those 1000+ villains haven't conquered the world yet.[/quote']

I agree superhero write ups are very much needed for the game. Strike Force and To Serve And Protect are two very fondly remembered books because of the superhero write ups in them.

 

I don't really agree that you need mega-heroes to stand up to 1,000 point villains. The Champions can go against Mechanon and have a reasonable chance at success. The same goes for Warlord and Supreme Serpent. Point totals are not always an indicator of power.

Re: Now that I've seen Reality Storm

Looking at the characters I see an odd mish-mosh of power levels on the Guard. While Caliburn is interesting' date=' he is extremely poorly built for a 400+pt char, and the same goes for SlipStream & Mother Raven. It seems rather odd to have these characters on the same team w/Sentinel & Red Phoenix (900 & 600pts respectively) Not to mention the Villains. I mean How can Slimstream even HOPE to survive a battle that is going to be challenging to Sentinel?[/quote']

The guard are designed to represent the justice league of their universe. How does Batman survive something designed to be fought by Superman or Green Lantern? The same concept applies here. Most of the games I have played in have had different power levels for all the heroes. Crane does 8d6, Valhalla does 22d6. The game works for us without anyone feeling under or over powered.

 

The genre itself dictates that all characters have dramatically different power levels. It's really only in champions games that everyone needs to be equal for some reason.

Re: Alien Wars?

There is a hero universe timeline pdf available for download in the free stuff section. It discusses how all the genres fit together.

Re: Standard 1st level Star Hero Character?

There are two sample star hero characters in the free genre by genre pdf in the free stuff section of the website. It gives examples for different characters per genre.

Re: Now that I've seen Reality Storm

I was referring to the large number of high point value villains in the Champions Universe. I feel their presence tends to overshadow the efforts of standard level heroes.

There really are not that many high point villains in champions. I believe there are only 7 published villains over 1,000 points. The other 120+ are all in the 350-800 point range. With heroes starting at 350 points a 500 point villain is really not much of a challenge for 2-3 heroes in combat. I don't really see the overshadowing you speak of.

Re: Now that I've seen Reality Storm

Crowded?? How??

 

They've barely statted out any heroes at all, at not a one of the iconic ones ( unless Quasar counts ).

I believe he means crowded in the sense that there are so many listed heroes in the champions universe. It seems like there are over 150 listed in the pdf. Millenium city alone has 22 listed heroes in it, not including the ravenswood cadets.

It does seem like hero games goes out of its way to not give us hero write ups. Even the mystic world has no mystic superhero write ups in it. You would think they would have included one or two. IMO, we really need more concrete information on the universe and its heroes.

Re: Now that I've seen Reality Storm

SAS does not have many villains for its game yet. There are only about 40 villains published in 3 roll calls and 1 criminal intent book. There are not a great deal of choices for a champions game. The villains from the SAS book are the most interesting characters in the SAS world. Kreuzritter, Janus, Iron Duke, Bloody Mary, and Jade Naga are the characters I would uses from SAS.

Re: Now that I've seen Reality Storm

Any idea when it is supposed to hit the shops ?

 

I have seen nothing about release in Britain yet.

I cannot speak for Britain but I have had a copy since last Friday, so it is out there.