Hyper-Man

Re: Martial Cringe

 

I like the damage reduction with a dex skill roll. could probably get it a little cheaper though' date=' Must know attack is coming "[/quote']

Basing the ability on Dex is just another Dodge or Block. Martial Cringe seems like something that a character who is otherwise awful in combat could be good at.

Re: Martial Cringe

 

A block or dodge has to be declared before the attack roll is made. This maneuver is consistent with that effect. Once a roll is made by the attacker there is nothing the defender can do to affect he outcome of the attack roll. By that point it is too late no matter what power, skill or manuevers he has at at his disposal.

 

The manuever Roll with a punch would allow a character to take reduced damage after the attack hits if successfull but this also sounds like another DEX based ability that the word Cringe does not imply.

 

With regards to skill roll vs. PRE attack, I was considering this to be just another martial manuever. As such I did not think it was appropriate to define it as a skill since as far as I can tell you can't abort to a skill roll. "I abort to my Conversation/Acting skill" just doesn't make sense if even a trained Actor who hasn't necessarily trained to use said skill in combat tries.

 

Also, let me clarify that the intent of my construction was a manuever that like block not only helped you avoid an attack but potentially allowed you to gain a momentary advantage of initiative vs. your opponent. To otherwise surrender you ,in effect, give the attacker a 'free' cover on you. I was trying to build a manuever that let you avoid this and take advantage of the opponents momentary suprise.

 

I guess you could make the roll easier to manage by making it a CHAR vs. CHAR roll using the same +20 PRE bonus I described earlier. It might even make more sense to have it be MCringer's PRE vs. attackers INT instead of PRE since it is an attempt to do one thing and make it look like another. So a character with a 15 PRE facing another character with a 20 PRE(20 INT). 15 PRE character 'martial cringes' before 20 PRE(20 INT) swings big stick. He gets [9 + (15+20)/5] or 16 or less vs. (9+20/5) or 13 or less. Maybe a little easier than counting dice totals for Presence attacks too.

 

I just don't see the concept of this manuever justifying the use or purchase of an actual skill like Conversation or Acting. The context for the term 'Martial Cringe' as I understood it in the NGD thread was that PersonX said something that deserved an allmighty smack from PersonY and PersonX sees that person Y is about to attempt and smack him. PersonX reacts by falsely appealing to the good nature of PersonY in an attempt to avoid said allmighty smack and catch PersonY unaware later. Jackie Chan's drunken master technique/movie persona basically does the same thing. Does this define his character with a better than normal interraction skill like Conversation or Acting? No. It is a very specific maneuver that uses body language to convey a very specific universal message. I think that despite language differences (even deafness) most people would understand hands held up in the "don't hit me!!" stance.

 

I'll hush now. silly Munchkin in need of a social life!!

Re: Ye Old "Hero is Hard" Debate

 

Here is something silly I came up with a while back. I am not trying to fan the flames, just give everyone something to laugh about (unless you happen to be a baseball fan )

Re: Martial Cringe

 

Nah, I didn't think it was that way, I just wanted to be clear as well. We are mutually obsessive, apparently. on this point!

 

Speaking of which, it ought to be obvious I can be obsessive - check my post count!

Nah, you're just thorough and like to be near the center of attention!

Re: Martial Cringe

 

Oh, yeah, I didn't mean to slight the earlier such suggestions or imply they didn't state it, sort of just "musing" and chatting, I suppose.

 

By the way, I really appreciate yours and others' contributions to what started as a bit of a lark but equally still of interest to me, so nice to get the feedback.

No slight taken.

I can get a bit obsessive about the silliest things sometimes.

I did not intend on coming off that way. Sorry

Re: Variable Power Levels for Heroes

 

It sounds like an awesome approach Supreme!

 

Let us know how it turns out.

Re: Martial Cringe

 

So basically it's a PRE attack but the SFX on the attacked lie more in how they respond with self-confidence and "he's not worth attacking"? That's a good one' date=' in line with a few others here. So in extreme examples, let's say we have a 500 point Martial Cringer, he meets up with a mob that besets itself on him, he Martial Cringes, next thing you know they all "flee" (SFX = "he's not worth attacking, that loser!"). Eh?[/quote']

The 2 construction examples I offerred earlier if applied to a mob situation would not help cause the crowd to flee. The bonus PRE is only for purposes of making the attacker(s) temporarily stop/hesitate from attacking. If a large enough effect is generated on the PRE table minus *appropriate modifiers, the attacker(s) hesitate either a half or full phase. In a round about way this accomplishes a similar initiative effect to the Block maneuver but it is not DEX/CV based but instead 'acting' based which would fall under PRE.

 

(*appropriate needing to be mapped out since PRE usually defined as offensive but in this case it is being used in a sympathy mode)

Re: Ye Old "Hero is Hard" Debate

 

What I dislike about d20 isn't levels or classes, although I don't like them much. It's not the escalating HP, although I don't like those much either.

 

It's the playerbase.

 

The majority of d20 (and when I say d20, I really mean D&D3e) players seem to be drawn from the ranks of habitual players of Everquest, Diablo or any of a zillion computer games where role playing is just a cosmetic veneer over a powergaming tank.

 

Kill anything worth exp. loot the dead. salvage anything valuable or useful. It's what the ruleset supports best. Common as dirt.

 

Champions, OTOH, does not support the same behavior because it is assumed that you won't be able to loot viper agents and carry around a pair of railguns. Even if your character could physically manage it, it isn't genre. Ditto with looting foci from the captured villains. Doesn't work that way.

 

I suppose it's possible for there to be characters so destitute that they have to go through the pockets of viper agents for cash, pawning guns from drug runners and selling villain costume bits on ebay to support themselves, but it is far from common.

 

$0.02

It sounds like you are making a commentary on hack&slash vs. supers instead of game systems. Does D20/D&D3.x still give experience for everything killed? If so that part of the argument might hold up in a comparison to a Fantasy Hero game where the GM only rewards good roleplaying, not killing effectiveness.

Re: Martial Cringe

 

I guess my inner munchkin is feeling hungry but...

 

If this thread is an exercise in defining a manuever based on the name "Martial Cringe" lets take a look at the definition of the word.

According to http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=cringe

To shrink back, as in fear; cower.

 

This does not sound like an active action towards an attacker which is the way Block is usually defined since it requires an attack roll OCV vs. OCV. Cringe implies an attempt to send a signal of surrender (uncle!!) before getting pummeled by a fist or a stick.

 

Before the advent of ranged weapons technology this probably happened more often in combat between men just like it does in the animal kingdom. Its the reason that most male mammal species don't usually kill one another during mating season. They only fight until one gives up. Human's creation of killing technology that is faster than the surrender reflex is one of the biggest reasons people die. How many reports of someone dying in a brawl do you see where it wasn't a fluke accident (head hits hard object like table or concrete) or the attacker was hyped on drugs or alchohol? Not very many that I am aware of and it usually because of the natural surrender reflex response.

1. 
   

Re: Martial Cringe

 

Of course' date=' geekdom already has a long-established term for cowardly surrender at the least hint of a threat: [i']The Picard Maneuver.[/i]

So does The Kirk Maneuver bring Mentor or Mightybec to mind first?

Re: Clairvoyance and Memorization

 

What is the character's method of tracking the characters? And is there any way that a character with some appropriate sense could detect the method? Answering these questions might help determining how to construct the power.

 

It might require two different powers, mindscan for people and traditional clairvoyance with memorized locations imported from teleport works as good as any other mechanic. I'd probably set them up in multipower too.

 

Re: Ye Old "Hero is Hard" Debate

 

This post is already getting long enough to be a serious ramble, so I'd better sum up what I am getting at as this: there will always be rpg'ers to whom HERO is more than they want out of an rpg. There is no point in getting upset by their apparent 'blindness' in the face of the self-evident merits of our favourite system. Rather, we should highlight HERO's strengths so as to make the system appealing to those who are looking for what a game like HERO has to offer. That's it I guess.

 

PS. However complicated or not, the number-crunching in HERO is arithmetic, not maths.

Nicely put.

Re: The cranky thread

 

I mean' date=' seriously, how was it a derail? Not to pester, and I recognize plenty of times my messages ARE derails, but this one - ?[/quote']No, you did not try to derail the thread. I was being silly and not getting away with it nearly as well as some other posters would (like Mightbec ).

oh well. sorry

 

I did find it quite amusing that you thought the name of the manuever should be changed when you created the thread in the first place.

Re: Ye Old "Hero is Hard" Debate

 

A given d20 product is like a tall glass of ice cold pepsi. if pepsi is your favorite, its great. if pepsi is OK, then you at least get something out of it. If you absolutely did not like pepsi, you bought the wrong soda.

 

HERO, on the other hand, is an empty glass with no ice and no beverage but instructions on making ice and making beverages.

 

Use of pepsi is not intended to infringe on any trademarks or copyrights. I am in no way financially affiliated with pepsico or any of its subsidiaries.

So does that make us lemon's?

If so, let's all make some lemonaid and be happy.

Re: The cranky thread

 

who me?

Re: The cranky thread

 

back on topic.

 

things thta make me cranky:

people that try to derail threads that they started!

 

see martial cringe thread:

 

I like this idea as well, though it does indeed deserve a nobler name than "cringe". And Martial Passive Resistance is far too long a name!

Re: The cranky thread

 

I was just thinking a good picture of T.J. Hooker might inspire everyone into a new level of crankiness.

Re: The cranky thread

 

Oh' date=' well. Maybe a vacation from the bords is in order.[/quote']maybe an update of your avatar to better reflect your current mood might help?

Re: Martial Cringe

 

You can save points by applying two obvious Limitations to Martial Cringe: Incantations ("Don't hurt me! Please don't hurt me! Please...") and Gestures (Cover head with arms and cower).

valid point

 

edited Martial Cringe:

 

Martial Cringe +20 PRE vs. being attacked, Abort, Incantations, Gestures

 

*My only concern with this method is that it almost feels like double dipping since martial maneuvers already have optional distinctive rules. I would have thought Don't hurt me! and covering head with arms and cower would be part of the Presense attack that the cringe is adding to.

Re: Oops...

 

Thanks, KA!

 

Such praise would have been more poetic if posted to my Unluck thread, as my internet got disconnected the day you posted this...

I'm glad to see you are back as well and second KA's appraisal of your contributions.

Re: Variable Power Levels for Heroes

 

Kinda cool idea.

 

Though if the player wanting lower power suggests it be sure the more powerfull characters understand the comic proverb:

 

"with great power comes great responsibility"

Re: Martial Cringe

 

UMA states that you may only abort into Blocks, Dodges and Escapes.

 

Since a standard Martial Escape already boosts STR why not make Martial Cringe a variation of that manuever?

 

Martial Escape +15 STR vs. Grabs

cost= 4 points

 

Martial Cringe -2 DCV +20 PRE vs. being attacked, Abort, DCV penalties last +1 phase

You make a 'suprise' surrender which startles your attacker.

+10 or +20 effect above target's EGO/PRE would be needed to cause the attacker to hesitate (either a half or full phase respectively).

cost= 4 points

 

Note, this manuever's success requires that the attacker has sufficient conscience to 'accept' a surrender and will probably only work once vs. any one opponent.

Re: Ye Old "Hero is Hard" Debate

 

i found i had lots of control of character combat interaction just the other night.

 

Ok.

It is a very contrived sense of control due to the designers patching but not actually changing the flaws go all the way back to the systems roots in 1st ed. And the fact that they have to make special case rules for hit points and damage that change reinforces the complication. If a stealthy character can slit a high level characters throught, can an invisible character do the same to that high level character in combat. I don't think so.. he might have an easier time hitting but his damage will be mittigated by the 'level' of the fighter. this does not make sense if the fighter cannot perceive the attack. Hit points represent too many different things in one package. I think that most experienced D&D players that have migrated characters to Fantasy Hero would agree that the Body of the 1st level version of a particular character will not be too much lower than the score of that same character when he reached 20th level in D&D. The reason he is better at combat is due to his ability to 'roll with the punch' on virtually all attacks, the exceptions being when asleep or attacked by spells with all or nothing effects which then push you to go to another table for saving throws.

 

 

BTW, you are aware that in the various d20 systems we have hit points, wound/vitality points, massive damage saves, non-hit-point damage saves, classes with 1-3 hp per level, and so on... so that there isn't one d20 hit point model but many... each attempting to make the combat feel match the genre, right?

again a patchwork of exceptions to the basicly flawed core setup.

 

So you are arguing that you think monsters and heroes should work the same?

I think it would be nice if the same mechanic was the rule not the exception. The only exception I am aware of to this in HERO are the automaton rules used for robots and golems which by their nature do not have a stun score. The core setup of D&D does not have an intuitive stunning or subdual rule, there are methods that require as much or more bookeeping than HERO but they are the exceptions.

 

 

I think in d20 taking no damage from a hth attack is what is usually called a miss. Enemy attacks, fails to score a damaging hit... its a miss.

 

in some d20 games, the skill at avoiding being hit is called defense and it scales with level/class.

 

So it looks like what you are wanting to see is already there.

I stand corrected on the level based AC bonus. However the AC bonus from armor itself does not make intuitive sense. Say a character is wearing platemail, another character with a magic sword swings and misses, but the miss is by less than the amount of AC bonus given by the armor itself. Is this miss is explained as a bounce off of the armor? I don't even damage the armor? Can I have a magic sword that gives a bonus to hit without a damage bonus or visa-versa or are the 2 stats intertwined too closely in the rules? Say the sword has a touch effect, do you have to figure the hit based on 2 different AC's?

 

I am not arguing against the speed and ease of use of D&D and other D20 systems. I am saying that they do not lend themselves to actually explaining what is really happening. A miss is not always a miss.

Re: Blade Sharpenings R Us !!

 

thanks!

 

I remember looking at that years ago but just couldn't remember the name.

Has anyone ran a multi-dimensional game with 'weaponsmith-shops' that were setup like a local eatery with pictures/paintings of the famous owners and their even more famous customers?

 

I am imagining a shop somewhere with pictures of some weaponsmith with the likes of LionO, Thundarr, Samurai Jack, King Arthur, etc.. (heck, maybe a few Jedi for good measure!)

 

I remember seeing a book about a floating interdimensional restaurant that was written up but I can't recall this particular combination.