Claire Redfield

I can totally empathize with your opinions regarding the Speed Chart. In theory, I love the speed chart... But in practice, not so much. The Speed Chart interacts strangely with other aspects of the rules (Vehicles/Mounts, Velocity-Based Maneuvers, etc). If you want to ditch the Speed Chart entirely: I suggest going with treating everyone as though they had a SPD of 3. There are three reasons for picking SPD 3 over SPD 2 or 4.

The first reason is simple precedent. Bases, which don't have SPD scores, are treated as though they have a dormant SPD of 3 for the purposes of Constant Powers and such.

The second reason is interaction with other aspects of the rules. SPD 3 is the minimum SPD score necessary to provide a mechanical differentiation between Extra Time (Extra Phase), and Extra Time (1 Turn). SPD 3 (as compared to SPD 4 at least) also minimizes the amount of "free movement" this optional rule grants a 0-point character (and by extension, every character).

The third reason is the SPD 3 is the value suggested in HERO System 6th for "Removing Speed" in one of the tool kitting sections. So it is, after a fashion, RAW.

Also, can you tell me where in the 6E books it talks about removing Speed? I can't seem to find it, even on a search, in my 6E books or Champions Complete.

Edit: Never mind, I found it in the "Speeding up combat" section.

If it's an actual weapon, then it does its base damage. Adding to that... that's where you could write a book. If there are no Advantages on it, you can add +1 DC per 5 STR. If it has a STR Minimum, it's +1 DC per 5 STR above the minimum. If there are Advantages, you pro-rate them into the added STR, essentially reducing the amount of DCs your STR adds.

 

Up until 6e, you could only increase an HKA weapon to double its base damage as a hard and fast rule. In 6e that's still strongly recommended but up to the GM.

 

Edited to add: I was on my phone earlier. Pro-rating STR added to attacks definitely has some math quirks, especially when taking Advantages into account. Essentially you would treat STR as added Active Points, taking into account the Advantages that modify Damage Classes, which include Armor Piercing but the rest of which I don't know off the top of my head. But, for instance, as Armor Piercing is a +1/4 Advantage in 6e, it would take 6.25 points (5 * 1.25) of STR to add +1 DC to an Armor Piercing melee weapon. As of 5th edition the rules had more or less accreted from five editions plus the pre-4th edition standalone genre-based games (Fantasy Hero, Danger International/Espionage, Justice Inc., Robot Warriors, Star Hero). So there were a lot of quirks in them. In 6e they were meant to be somewhat simplified but I'm not sure how well that goal was met.

Yeah, the Advantaged Strength and DC addition is kind of a headache for me. As it is, I'm not even sure how you factor in "6.25 points of Strength" to begin with, you know? I really think there's gotta be an easier way to deal with this issue, but at any rate, maybe if I get to see it and use it in action it'll make things easier to grok.

There's a rule hidden on 6E2 173 and CC 146. If the PD + BODY of an improvised weapon is greater than the STR dice of the character wielding it, the attack deals an extra +1d6 for every 2 full points the PD + BODY exceeds the STR dice, to a maximum of double damage.

 

A normal human (STR 10, 2d6 damage) hitting someone with a light wooden chair (3 PD, 3 BODY) would deal 4d6 damage. The chair would also take the same damage every time it was used as a weapon, so the bonus would gradually fade and then go away completely as it broke.

Interesting. I like that idea, though!

Why not just find a set of rules you like better and play that instead?

I didn't mean it to sound unfriendly, it just looks like he's looking for a game without some of Hero's more complicated mechanics and with different roll structures, and there are a lot of systems out there they might like better. The problem with text is that there's no tone of voice, so you have to guess at what people intend. Probably its best to not presume malice without some sort of cause or indication?

She, first of all, is looking for ways to help mold HERO into what I want it to be. And no, you're right, congratulations. You've unsold me on HERO and by extension the group I was trying to get into playing it. I'll go play something else and never buy or recommend another HERO book to anyone, and if I ever see anyone being curious about HERO, I'll quickly convince them not to bother, since if you change it, well, you're not truly playing HERO, are you? You might as well just play a different game that you like better.

Do you see why this general attitude is harmful? Because yes, I read that first reply as just more dismissal. I didn't come to the HERO board to ask about helping tweak things to how I want them in HERO because I really wanted to play another game. I have M&M 3E, I can indeed just go play that.

HERO is purported to be a toolkit for creating just what you want. I'm not talking about jettisoning powers, or skills, or talents, or the entirety of the combat system. I'm talking about changing a few things I don't like: roll-under, SPD and multiple actions. Maybe they can't be done, or maybe they can, but I didn't come here to ask about them because I was just goofing around or confused about what game I really wanted.

Some quick conversions:

 

Meters/Turn * .1875 = MPH

 

Meters/Turn * .3 = KPH

 

This is about the closest you can get. Phased movement doesn't really lend itself to spot-determining a character's velocity in MPH or KPH, beyond converting as above. If you settle on, for instance, SPD 4 for all characters, then that simplifies it somewhat:

 

Meters * .75 = MPH

 

Meters * 1.2 = KPH

Hm. So in this case, is "per Turn" meaning the 12-segment turn? Though I really do want to figure out a good alternative to doing that, and hopefully with you folks helping I'll be able to.

There's a lot of really great stuff to like about the HERO System. Different strokes for different folks. Some people love green peppers, and add them to everything. Some people can't stand them, or have a bad reaction to them. so they leave them out of recipes that otherwise call for them.

 

Some of the rules in the system are baked in as options to choose from: Hit Locations, Bleeding, Impairing Disabling, Knockback vs. Knockdown. Lots of Hero gamers ignore END use, because of the bookkeeping; lots of others use roll-high for combat because it's easier to add numbers than subtract on the fly. I don't see altering or ignoring the SPD Chart as being much different from that.

Yeah, as much as in theory I like Hit Locations, Bleeding, etc., especially for a game set in the Aliens universe or something like that, for the most part I don't bother with them. But I like the way HERO does Endurance, and the way it does powers, and I want to figure out if I can keep the stuff I want while changing the things I don't much care for. Here's hoping!

A quick search leads to some podcasts that purport to be actual play of Hero:

Happy Jack's RPG Podcast

Drink Spin Run: DSR Learns the HERO System

HERO System Super Agents: Mystic Force

I haven't listened to any of them so can't speak to the quality, but I'm going to bet they're pretty helpful. I've also got a How to Play Hero System link in my signature (here if you're viewing with signatures turned off) which includes links to other helpful documents and threads here, at RPG.net, and elsewhere.

 

Edit: Also added The Big Thread of Helpful Howto's to my signature.

Thank you, I will definitely check those out!

People have covered roll high very well. I am someone who also likes roll high. It works well with "Target Numbers".

 

I do like the Spd Chart a lot. It gives a great way to differentiate between Mooks(ie weak opponents, untrained folk) Spd 2, Trained individuals (ie Combat Veterans), and Elite (Special Forces guys, Top tier Martial Artists etc).The Spd chart doesn't really do much to speed or slow things down in my experience. Unless you are playing Champions and you have characters with a Wide range of SPD values. Even with that having players who are ready to take their action when their phase comes up fixes a lot of that issue. Which IS an issue with ANY RPG. Players who can't decide or who who don't decide what to do until their phase comes up. There's easy fixes for that. Also the SPD chart is a bit easier to remove in a non Superheroic game where setting everyone to the same SPD doesn't hurt much. In a Supers game, putting everyone at the same speed really makes Martial Artists and Speedsters feel the same as the slow team Brick. Which is not good for the Genre IMHO. YMMV

I like to think you could accomplish this stuff fairly well via powers and other traits. The Martial Artist would presumably have a lot more CSLs and much higher DEX, have faster initiative, possibly faster movement speeds and traits representing their agility. Same with speedsters, for whom I would much rather use autofire attacks, area attacks, and various speed powers and traits rather than extra actions. That way, you can have the speedster still feel awesomely fast without having so many more attacks and actions than others, which feels like a "fun tax" in our group. Simply put, if you don't have it, you can't compete, and also running many actions per character per turn really slows things down.

I can totally empathize with your opinions regarding the Speed Chart. In theory, I love the speed chart... But in practice, not so much. The Speed Chart interacts strangely with other aspects of the rules (Vehicles/Mounts, Velocity-Based Maneuvers, etc). If you want to ditch the Speed Chart entirely: I suggest going with treating everyone as though they had a SPD of 3. There are three reasons for picking SPD 3 over SPD 2 or 4.

The first reason is simple precedent. Bases, which don't have SPD scores, are treated as though they have a dormant SPD of 3 for the purposes of Constant Powers and such.

The second reason is interaction with other aspects of the rules. SPD 3 is the minimum SPD score necessary to provide a mechanical differentiation between Extra Time (Extra Phase), and Extra Time (1 Turn). SPD 3 (as compared to SPD 4 at least) also minimizes the amount of "free movement" this optional rule grants a 0-point character (and by extension, every character).

The third reason is the SPD 3 is the value suggested in HERO System 6th for "Removing Speed" in one of the tool kitting sections. So it is, after a fashion, RAW.

This seems like it might work well. It only takes up 10 points and might work out well. I'll keep checking out options.

In Supers and high powered Fantasy or Space Opera it is going to feel forced. Speedsters are not impossible to do without speed, but they are certainly more difficult. You end up with lots of VPP's or tons of linked powers or oodles of combat levels with speed special effects. High powered opponents in Heroic who could do things like Block and then attack before the hero could react are more expensive and kludgey to do. The impacts are subtle but far reaching. Get used to hand waving effects that have been made too difficult by the simplificatoin.

 

Maybe you can do a half way. Base speed is 3 for everyone. If you buy more it must be in multiple of 3 and you simply let them act at Dex and half dex. Delayed phase for first action is at 3/4 dex, 1/4 dex for second action. I dunno, maybe not that but you could play with numbers.

I'm okay with that, though. In other games (notably, M&M again), you don't need multiple actions per turn to do speedsters justice. I like to think HERO could compensate in various ways.

There is a section in Combat that described exactly how Added Damage works, I would suggest reading it with a highly critical eye. One of the donwsides of Champions Complete being so condensed is that many important rules are only one or two sentences in an otherwise boring chapter.

 

The long-ish version however is that an "Added DC" regardless of its source (such as strength adding to an HKA) is equal to +5 active points to the "base power" (strength is a power too) it is being added to. If the base power (Strength, Blast, HKA, what have you) doesn't have advantages, everything is fairly simple; +5 APs = +1d6 Normal Damage and +15 APs = +1d6 of Killing Damage. If the base power does have an advantage things get complicated; but here is the gist.

When adding DCs to an attack power with advantages, you still have to "pay for" those advantages out of total number of active points added to it. There is a list of what advantages generally have to be "paid for" in this manner. So if you have a Normal Damage power with +1 in advantages, than you need to add +10 APs to gain +1d6 Normal Damage (with that advantage). If you have a Killing Damage power with +1 in advantages, you need to add +30 APs to gain +1d6 Killing Damage (with that advantage). If the Normal Damage power only has +1/4 in Advantages, it needs to gain 6.25 APs to gain +1d6 Normal Damage (with that advantage). If a Killing Damage power only has +1/2 in advantages, it needs to gain 22.5 APs APs to gain +1d6 of Killing Damage.

This is where it loses me a bit, figuring out how to add DCs with Advantages. That sort of thing is quite difficult for me to process on the fly, and I often don't like feeling like I'd have to stop to calculate something if a player grabbed, say, a sword off of a fallen enemy and used it. At least improvised weapons rules are fairly easy, and I like the way they do that. I'm not anywhere near 100% on adding DCs with Advantages, though. Maybe if I did it a bunch or saw it in action.

In terms of understanding Speed versus "Movement Speed" I like to start by looking at Velocity Per Turn (which you calculate by multilying the value of their Movement power in meters by their Speed), then by minute (by multiplying by 5), then by hour (by multiplying by 60). How fast a character moves in a single phase is largely irrelevant unless you need to pull off a Velocity Based maneuver. It is nice to think about how long their phases are however, although it happens such on paper, not everything actually happens in the single second One Segment represents. A character with a SPD of 2 has a phase 6 seconds long (just like DnD/Pathfinder), a character with a SPD of 3 has one 4 seconds long, and one with a SPD of 6 has one only 2 seconds long. 2 seconds isn't a lot of time for a villain to monologue inbetween Blasts.

And see, this sort of thing is what makes me want to get rid of SPD. Chris Goodwin's suggestions about converting it to multiple actions is a great one; however, I've found that multiple actions in general are problematic, and basically a fun tax — if you don't pay it, you don't get to have as much fun as everyone else. I don't use them anywhere that it is possible to avoid.

This is pretty easy. Just a matter of flipping things over.

 

Currently you need to roll equal to or under 11+OCV-DCV. If OCV = DCV then you have a 62.5% chance to hit.

 

To maintain that chance to hit you need, if OCV = DCV, to roll 10 or over.

 

In this case you need to remember that you add levels to OCV or DCV to keep the effects right.

So, you roll OCV + 3d6 vs. DCV + 10? What about with skill rolls?

It is up to you here too. You can remove SPD from the game. What you need to decide is how many actions you want people to have before they get a recovery. Effectively you are then setting the SPD of the game. So if you decide the players will get 4 actions before a recovery then the speed of the game is 4. It also means that all of the opponents of the heroes will have SPD 4 too (though you can highlight a dangerous opponent by giving them bonus actions).

 

With a spd 4 game is means that 2500m in a half phase action means 2500m in 1.5s (which equals 6,000,000m per hour) pretty fast! :-)

 

In a fixed SPD game though, it means that if you have 20m movement that you can move that distance as your full action. If you want to do other things during your action then you move half that (or less) and do other stuff (like attacking).

 

However, it is easier to think about when everyone is moving at the same time.

I may go with a fixed SPD, as described below, or maybe I'll come up with something else. It would certainly make this easier on me figuring out how fast characters are and proper movement rates with a fixed speed value.

I guess a lot of what you want to do might depend on the genre of campaign you plan on running.

 

What you playing? Superheroes? Super-Agents? Fantasy? Sci-Fi??

A lot of what I would would be superheroes, including lots of high-powered stuff. But I would also use this for, say, an Aliens game or the like, because it would be fun for that. Also, I'd like to build lots and lots of characters like I do with other supers systems (have a big thread on conversions on the M&M site).

Are there any quirks in the math to be wary of?

As far as adding DCs, what about picking up a knife, a sword, a chainsword (why not)? The book (Champions Complete is what I'm reading) leaves me sort of confused on how it works, especially when Advantages are involved.

I see it as being protective, in a sense, of a perfectly sound system.

 

One could, for example, propose altering the rules of chess so that captured pieces get added to one's own arsenal which one can introduce onto the board in place of a normal move, and allow any piece to become promoted upon reaching the opponent's back rank. This might be regarded by its proponents as a great streamlining of the game. This would not be chess, however. It would be shogi. An entirely different, though related, game.

 

I love shogi every bit as much as I love chess. I would not endorse proposals to add the rules of shogi into chess. Shogi is shogi and chess is chess. There is no need, in my view, to transform one into the other. Of course nothing is stopping anyone from doing so when they play, but if you are asking a forum of Hero System veterans what they think of the idea of altering the system so that it is something else, expect to get some degree of push back.

And I disagree with the idea that modifying one part of a toolkit system (indeed, touted as the toolkit system) is somehow fundamentally altering the game. That goes against HERO's core aspects, really, and is no more changing HERO into a different game than removing Attacks of Opportunity would be changing D&D into something completely different.

Worse still, this kind of pushback is what's going to turn away a lot of players. If I'm a new player looking to get into HERO, and a bunch of grognards try to dismiss any idea of modifying a toolkit system in any significant way, I'm going to put down that game and go somewhere a little more receptive. Especially when HERO already looks so intimidating based on its size and density. This kind of attitude will ensure that the game dies a slow death, rather than accepting any form of change at all. See also: Palladium games and the refusal to adapt, and the fall from prominence, relevance, and good word of mouth. And even then, Siembieda finally licensed out Rifts to Savage Worlds. If there's hope for Palladium, there's hope for HERO, but it doesn't start with insisting that any change destroys the game's identity and purpose.

Poor time and turn management by players is lethal no matter what you do, definitely. I still have some problems (and they're just preference) with certain mechanics, but slow players can't be fixed by any trick of the rules, that's for sure! As far as the game becoming inscrutable, I suppose so. It's very intimidating to a lot of new players. Combine that with the general trend toward more simplified and streamlined mechanics, and away from heavily-detailed simulation systems, plus tons of alternative options for supers gaming or whatever genre, and you have this perceived difficulty with getting people into HERO.

The question is how do you dial it back without losing that robustness and flexibility? I'm sure there's an answer in there somewhere.

Hi there! I would like your help in coming up with some alternate/streamlined rules for HERO. While I don't necessarily want to strip away everything and make it into a different game, I would like to see what options we can come up with that won't require rewriting vast chunks of the system. Also, this stuff is pretty much all subjective. I'm not really interested in a debate over the necessity or lack thereof here; mostly I want to see what options are doable, and then go from there.

Roll-Under to Roll-Over

Purely an aesthetic thing, but I really dislike roll-under. I especially dislike it when mixed in the same game (possibly in the same turn, even), such as rolling low to hit and then rolling high for damage. I would like to convert all target number rolls to roll-over, but preferably without breaking anything. Is this possible? If so, how do we do it?

SPD Chart = RIP Chart

I don't much care for the Speed Chart and multiple actions per turn. I'd prefer to simplify it down to a single round's worth of actions per turn, without necessarily having to lose Post-12 Recovery, or at least having Recovery still be a thing.

Related: I'd also like to make this easier when figuring out movement rates in more common/intuitive values. For me, MPH (even KPH) is a little easier to grok than "moves 2500m in a half-phase action." Or at the least, the "move 2500m as a move action" thing would be easier if I didn't also have to consider each segment in a turn. Since a lot of the games I'd like to use HERO for would involve trying to figure movement stuff like this, I'd like to find a way to make this much simpler.

Examples of Play and of Character Builds

I might need some help on specific builds or examples of play in action, to get a better feel for how things work, if anyone would be up for that. If so, I will come up with a few things and list them here. For now, I want to start with the above two items.

Oh, I guess one thing that comes to mind is adding DCs, especially with HKAs involved and such. Can someone break down a few different examples of how it would work if a character used an HKA, and what would happen if that character picked up, say, a broken bottle, a staff, or a boulder?

But when it comes to a remedy, I think it is nearly impossible to reach consensus here. For example, I don't understand why the Speed Chart is so maligned. It is incredibly simple to use and performs an invaluable service (it interleaves combat in a way that provides for a much finer granularity of action-taking than the crude "two attacks per round" or "three attacks per two rounds" mechanics of more primitive systems). There are far more effective ways to simplify combat than taking away the characters' ability to act more often than others in a given space of time. After all, if you're not going to use the Speed Chart, then there is no need for the SPD characteristic, and you might as well go play FATE or D&D or something.

This kind of dismissive nonsense is part of the problem. When your tribe is already small and not exactly growing, dismissing any alternate ideas or desires that don't align with your own as "Might as well go play FATE or D&D or something" is killer. If just removing the Speed Chart makes the game not worth playing, or completely changes it into a different game, then there's a big problem with the game. However, I don't believe that's the case, and that the problem lies with the perception that such a change is fundamentally the same as not using HERO at all.

Combat is easy to make roll-over.  3d6 + OCV >= 10 + target's DCV.  Same formula as in D&D 3.5e+.  The math works the same and everything.  Skill rolls and CHA rolls might be a teensy bit more difficult, but not much more so, though I'm not particularly satisfied with it.  Which is slightly weird, because it's just the same thing; the math works out the same, etc. (CHA rolls being 9 + CHA/5 or less, turns into 3d6 + CHA/5 >= 12+; Familiarity becomes 3d6 >= 13+).  

 

For SPD, you could switch to 6 second Rounds instead of 12 second Turns, and divide everyone's SPD by 2 to get Actions per Round.  Keep fractions; SPD 3 becomes 1.5 Actions/Round.  You can disallow odd numbered SPD values if you want.  During a round, everyone just goes, in DEX order, high to low, as normal.  Once everyone has gone, everyone with more than 1 Action/Round goes, in DEX order, high to low (note that includes the ones with 1.5, 2.5, 3.5, etc.).  Once everyone with more than 1 Action/Round has gone, everyone with more than 2 Actions/Round goes.  The next round, repeat, except that after everyone goes, everyone with more than 1.5 Actions/Round goes (excluding the 1.5's), then everyone with more than 2.5 Actions/Round goes, etc.  "Post-12" Recovery happens at the end of the "more than x.5" round.  A Delayed Action can happen later in the same round, but you can't hold it from one round to the next.  

So, you roll 3d6 + your OCV vs their DCV + 10. I like it. Simple enough. How do we make that work with Charisma or Skill rolls? If the math works out the same, there shouldn't be any problems? What all do we need to do to make it happen?

This is fully an aesthetic thing, of course. It's just a particular (very strong) preference I have, especially when you have roll-high damage and effect.

As far as SPD goes, I'd honestly rather remove multiple actions per Turn entirely. I don't like them, and don't see much of a need to have them in any game, really. Even speedsters and the like (or Dragon Ball warriors, like I want to do) can model this sort of thing with various effects and maneuvers, rather than having lots of discrete actions per turn. This would speed things up (so to speak) in combat and also streamline some of the stuff I don't much like in my games anymore. Do you have any ideas for alternatives to multiple actions? I really like what you suggested here, although I would rather just like to get rid of multiple actions per turn in general.

This thread perfectly demonstrates what I noted in my first message; we can't even concur on things like what makes combat go fast or slow, whether or not character generation is fast/slow, or even whether or not to use the built-on Roll Low for Success rule or switch it around to a Roll-High mechanic. We are the problem with the Myth of Hero. We have so little consistency, even within our small online community. This is a feature though. THIS is what makes Hero attractive to us. Every single post that talks about whether or not to use Optional Rules, pare down the system to make the mechanics faster, or invert the dice rolls is an expression of why Hero is such a powerful gaming language. It is unifying in its diversity.

 

That does make it monolithic and intimidating to the newcomer though. So now for the Catch-22. If you standardize Hero and teach newcomers to play it in a certain prescribed way, does it remain Hero? On the surface, yes. When you get deeper, into tinkering with the system to make it yours, maybe not. On the other hand, at my job I always train new employees how to do things by the book and yet they always find their own shortcuts. Would the same thing happen if we had an established, standardized Hero? I think it might.

I think there's plenty of room to change things while still remaining true to the HERO core identity. For example, if the game was slimmed down even significantly, I think you could still keep what makes it so great. Shoot, M&M 3E does a lot of what HERO 6E does, but its ranks and measures are a lot more manageable and the effects are typically doing the same thing without quite so much detail. As one example I mentioned earlier, movement.

Right now, in HERO, can you make a character who flies at escape velocity (about 25,000 MPH)? Sure! But what do you have to do to get there? You have to buy Flight, of course, but you also have to calculate your travel speed based on your Flight level plus how many phases/segments you move (via the Speed Chart). It's an unintuitive headache for someone like me. In M&M, I buy 13 ranks of Flight. I can fly 16,000 MPH with a single move action, or up to double with a full move. A single move action lets me fly up to 30 miles. That's very easy to figure out, look at the Ranks & Measures table, and intuit. M&M is using slightly more broad levels (like the old DC Heroes AP system, from which it liberally borrowed), but the trade is much faster and easier to deal with in play. If for some reason it's necessary, I can just use my Flight rank 13 as a modifier on a roll, such as in a tense aerial race. I can also apply Extras and Flaws to my power in much the same way; if somewhat less detailed, it's also significantly less work to craft these things.

Now, it may just be me, but I do think HERO could endure a streamlining along somewhat similar lines and still remain HERO. It could still keep its most unique features, and have more detail than its brethren without having significantly increased workload. As much as I really want to use HERO — for a wide variety of games — there's a lot of investment needed. For me that's not necessarily a problem (I do a lot of writing for games anyway, since all I play is PBP), but I actually need a calculator or HERO Designer when it comes to figuring out more intricate powers and stuff. Again, not a problem for me, but it does feed into this perception of HERO as this dense beast that's very difficult to get into.

At any rate, I think I'm going to make a thread dedicated to some of the simplifying options I'd like to bring about.

As is finding a reasonably-priced set of hardback 6e v1 & v2 books online.

True, and while I get the need to charge for it, I wonder if Hero Games isn't shooting itself in the foot a little by not making HERO Designer free. It is, after all, a great way to help people just learning HERO learn how to build things and see it in action. At the least, I think offering it for free to anyone who buys the HERO books would be a good idea.

There us already a Dragon Ball Z RPG. And guess what? It is a Fusion Labs project (Hero Games/and the guys behind Mekton).

Yeah, and I played it. I have some fond memories of it. But ultimately it breaks down, because it wasn't that great a rule system. I want to use something much more robust, like HERO, to really capture the feel I'm after.

Again, IMX it's all about making choices. If certain rules/minutia/options are more crunchy than you like, then simply say "we're not using those rules this stuff around."

 

IMO the reason Hero has the reputation it does is that it has done a terrific job of providing all kind of options you could use, but a lousy job of highlighting how simple the core mechanics are and how quickly and simply it can play, so you can then make a more informed decision about "OK, adding these options will slow combat down by "X" much..."

I forgot one more item: roll-under. I actually hate roll-under. One option I wish was in the game? An option to convert the system to roll-over.

But anyway, I guess I would have to get some more experience of the game in action, particularly when the Speed system is stripped away as I touched on earlier. The thing is, finding a HERO GM is very, very difficult online.

D&D combat is agonizingly slow, I think, especially 4E. I've never known it to be fast.

I can understand the "myth of HERO" phenomenon. I've been struggling with it myself, trying to get my group into the game, and having issues with various parts of the game. In fact, I even made a thread about it, but that thread seems to have vanished. I may make another, but in the meantime, here are some issues that apply to the "myth" for me.

Front-Loaded Character Creation

This part is never the problem for me. Yes, if you want to really get into detail, character creation and ability design are highly involved. However, this is largely front-loaded, and that's okay. I like that you can design things to whatever degree you want, and often do it better than many other systems. Now, there is some option overload, but since I largely like to use more Superheroic rules, that's not too bad.

Gameplay Post-Character Creation

Here is where I have the biggest trouble. Especially since all my gaming is done via PBP now. I don't like the Speed chart, overall, and I don't like trying to convert varying Speed values plus varying movement power values to try to get real-world speeds. "Can move 55 meter per phase" is basically meaningless to me. I can sit down and figure out how much distance that ultimately covers, but it doesn't register in any kind of pattern or intuitive estimation to me. Compared to saying "Can move 150 meters per turn/X MPH," where I have a much more intuitive grasp of how that works, it's more difficult. I'd like to remove Speed as a variable entirely, either by just assuming everyone is Speed 3, or finding an alternate system that preferably involves a single action/movement per turn.

On top of that, it feels like combat options are rather complex. This is something I have grown to dislike as a gamer over the years, combats that take too long unless specifically set up to do so. Mostly, figuring out things like DCs that might be affected by maneuvers or simply picking up a broken bottle or the like seems like more work than it ought to be. A lot of martial maneuvers seem fairly simple, modifying OCV or DCV in easy enough ways. But I've seen some examples of play bogged down with minutiae that doesn't look fun to track. If I want to have, say, a high-octane shonen hero fight, or something like Spider-Man swinging desperately through the city pursued by Electro, I want things to go fast, keep the excitement rolling. To that end, and because again PBP, I always use Standard Effect for everything.

A current example is that I want to run a Dragon Ball game for my friends. I have some great ideas. Few systems do it real justice, but I think HERO could. The issue is that while fights might take a while (when they're the big epic clashes), I want individual turns to be fast, and things to move quickly. It should be dynamic, fluid, and in no way clunky or slow. A game like M&M tends to offer similar things, but at an easier to manage level. Like with my movement rate example, it's far easier to say "Add 9 ranks of time (1 hour) to your movement speed rank to get MPH," and make it easier to get a "feel" for how it works. So if I have Speed 11, I can look and see that I move 4000 MPH, or about 8 miles in a single move action. Great! Now with a list of benchmarks that fit to the various ranks and measures, I really feel like I can intuit what these values mean. Or "Light speed is rank 28 movement" is great. Makes things easy, isn't a ridiculous number, gives me a feel for what I need to know.

The thing is, HERO does things that I really like. I love the way Aid works, and I like Endurance as a mechanic. I like that it'd be easier to build a character like Frieza, galactic tyrant capable of destroying whole planets with one finger (RKA 10d6, and it just goes up from there in the series), rather than in M&M giving him a +45 energy blast and dealing with the sort of wonky way that area attacks work in M&M. But the numbers are in general easier to manage. And I'm not sure how to reconcile the differences enough to make HERO the more attractive option for my players, at least a couple of which are predisposed against it.

So, for me, the "myth" is in truth less about character creation and more about the stuff that happens after. For some, like my players, it's character creation, but I think if they got a taste of it, without having the usual hearsay on the internet informing them, they'd be okay with it. At that point, it's a matter of whether or not we can make gameplay after character creation streamlined and fun.

It does, and thank you very much.

Thank you for the links!

And so far, no questions. Sounds about right. Of course, I'm not exactly the best judge of something....

I have two I'd like to see. One is Mantis, my original hero, who is sort of like Spider-Man in terms of powers, only with those of a praying mantis rather than a spider. She's very, very fast. Quicker than Spidey, even, but similar in other ways: wall-crawling, low-level flight/enhanced leaping, superhuman strength, heightened senses.

The other is high-powered. So I can wait on that if the other is easier to do.

Hm. Interesting. And thanks, folks. I'm still pretty lost, but I will keep trying.

Right now, all I have is Champions Complete. My copy of 6E1 is somewhere in storage, and I was never able to get a copy of 6E2.

Anyone feel like walking through character creation with me in this thread? We could create one of a couple concepts, get a feel for what it's like in action, along with some guidance from more experienced HERO players.

I want to use HERO/Champions Complete more, but I find that I run into some problems that don't crop up with other systems. M&M and MHR are my two other go-to supers systems. With either one, it's easy to have an idea of just how fast someone can move, or ballpark what a good number for effect ranks might be. For HERO, I have a lot of trouble with that. How much PD and ED should Captain America have? How much END? What are good benchmarks? There are some benchmarks in the book, but it's difficult to get a good sense of familiarity with the scales.

What are good ways to quickly figure out just how fast someone is moving? All the meters and so on are great, but I have a lot of trouble putting that into practical terms. Whereas in M&M, Sonic the Hedgehog (who can run roughly Mach 5, about 3800-4000 MPH) is Speed rank 10 or so, which is nice and easy to use and lets me also quickly look up how far he can move in a single turn. I don't know how to do that with HERO, and that's holding me back. So is not really having a good idea of benchmarks for things besides the basic stats.

Does that make sense? I know I've asked about calculating speed in more familiar terms before, but overall I'm just finding that it's kind of tough to really make this stuff feel like second nature.

Since I've been playing Champions Online lately, I'd kinda like to get more familiar with HERO.

I mean, how do you guarantee that it will go off when it hits her arms? What modifiers make that happen? Or is it just a function of SFX, saying "This power is on her arms, so logically this goes off when it hits her arms" ?

It's a bonus, definitely. She can parry edged weapons and hit even harder than her 40 Strength allows because of it. Also, as a function of said 40 STR and also her powers, hers is a very, very hard grip to break once she has you grappled. Restrainable is definitely appropriate on it.

Ghost, how do I guarantee that it goes off on her hands? Just a function of the SFX?

I'm not sure I understand the Activation part. It works for hit locations, you mean? So if they target her hands it's going ot go off, and otherwise there's the [Activation roll] chance that it will go off (meaning she manages to block)? With the HA, does the Damage Shield part mean she can still use it as an attack?

I'd go with a List: hardened bones and skin of her hands and arms

1) 2d6 HA Damage Shield, 0 END, Awareness Based (-1/2)

2) +4 PD Armor, Act 8-

 

1) If she senses an incoming attack, she may get her arm or hand(s) in the way.  An offending weapon may break if it hits her arm or hand, though generally not, unless she puts muscle into it.  2d6 is to reflect more damage than a fist load, less than a baton.

 

2) Of course, should a foe successfully target her hand or arm, the Activation is an automatic success.  Dial it up to +5 if her upper limbs are as tough as chain mail.  Consider how much, if any, additional ED Armor she should have.

 

I'm statting up my heroine character, Mantis, for use with HERO. Her main thing is that she has a praying mantis' powers adapted to her human form, much like Spider-Man with his namesake. I have most everything figured out. The one thing that is tripping me up are her mantis strikes:

Mantis' skin is somewhat hardened, especially on her arms. Among other things, this lets her block and parry edged weapons or strong attacks, and she's pretty adept at damaging objects with her chops, knife-hands and punches. Right now, I just have a general Resistant Protection power on her, but I'm considering either modifying it so that it only applies to her arms, or giving her a bit more, but that portion only applies to her arms. The other part is that I gave her a HTH Attack representing the hardened bones and skin of her hands and arms, which let her hit things really hard, even harder than 40 STR would suggest.

How would you go about building this?

I tired Hero Machine without much success (some things just wouldn't work and didn't look good at all), and I think Fabrica looks better, but apparently it won't work on my computer. At all. Nothing shows up, nothing works when I click on it.

Sigh. I wish I was a better artist. I used to be good, but not quite pro level, but I haven't drawn in a long time and I don't even have the stuff with me here now. Writing ended up really being my specialty.

I haven't statted her up yet (so I haven't figured out the exact numbers), but Mantis is pretty fast. She's not quite speedster-level, but she's got the proportionate speed of a praying mantis adapted to a human form. Think like Spider-Man's powers, but a praying mantis instead. So she's very, very fast on her feet and especially in close range, with reflexes and such. She can wall-crawl and super-leap/glide (or low-level flight, if you prefer), and with her agility it lets her get around pretty quickly. I'll have to figure out the exact stats when I stat her up.

I have a heroine I'd just love to see drawn by someone with more skill than I, because I'd also like to really play her in a HERO game. The basic rundown is that she's the unwilling victim of super-soldier experiments to hybridize human and animal DNA — creating operatives with powers like that of the Rhino, or Spider-Man, or even more extreme like the Lizard. In her case, she is Mantis, gaining the proportionate speed and strength of a praying mantis, the ability to wall-crawl and low-level fight, super-senses and some other benefits. Unfortunately, she has also lost much of her humanity and is trying to reconnect with it while fighting organizations like those who created her.

In terms of costume, she's something of a cross between Jessica Drew's Spider-Woman costume and Chun-Li's Street Fighter Alpha costume. I could provide reference pics and a good description of the costume. It's skintight, so it's not too complex, but I still can't do it the way I want to. I'm super-poor and can't afford any commissions, but if it helps, my birthday's coming up on the 22nd. Anyway, let me know here or by PM if you are interested, and thanks for looking!

Wow! That is a lot of a great ideas. I'm not even sure which ones to go with. Thanks, people, I appreciate it. Here's a little more information on the shields I'm after, in case that helps. Note that I don't necessarily want to capture everything about the way the video game works, since it's a video game, but I like the way shields work and based on what y'all have said, I believe it can work like this in HERO.

They do act sort of like an extra amount of health, taking damage instead of the character while they're active. They recover quickly, however, while health doesn't. Also while active, they protect the character from effects that would knock them down (or, in the case of Singularity, pull them into its orbit). They're also personal, though they protect the character from all sides. They're completely body-hugging.

I'm considering using HERO for a Mass Effect game, and one of the fun features of the setting is the prevalence of personal force fields. They ablate under fire, but the user only suffers damage once the shield is fully down. The shields regenerate quickly, too, usually within seconds. Looking at the rules, though, I'm really not quite sure how to tackle this. Seems like there might be more than one way, and certainly something I'm missing.

How would you build this in HERO 6E?