beauxdeigh

Re: New Power: Desolidification

Very interesting. I like the concept and think it is an improvement, just a couple of quibbles with the costs.

The first being that "Desolidification, All but Single SFx, Can pass through solid objects, Character is unable to affect the real world with STR and Powers" has an Active cost of 200 and a real cost of 67-ish. This is the way I would build Desolidification as it is in 5ER (no book here, mind you) which normally costs 40. Costs change when rules change, and I can accept that, but this seems a larger change than it needs to be.

I'd make Group of Common worth the same as Single Very Common. That's supported by other rules (ex. Vulnerability). Also, I wouldn't ramp the costs up so quickly except for the last couple of steps. I'd still top out at 120 at the very least. At that level it is basically absolute invulnerability, which means much playtesting and a big ol Stop sign on it.

This set confuses me:

All But Group Of Common & Very Common SFX: 40 Points

All But Group Of Very Common SFX: 80 Points

All But Single SFX: 100 Points

Is that a '(Group of Common) & Very Common SFX', or a 'Group of (Common & Very Common)' SFX? Is a Single Very Common SFX worth the same as a Single Uncommon SFX? What about a Group of Uncommon?

I'm not sure about the -3 and -4 levels on the Restricted Interaction limitation. They seem like they would seldom be used (if ever), and lack of perception should be handled by another limitation in my opinion. (Again, I don't have my book here, so this might be a part of existing Desolid and I just don't know it.)

That's about it. Again, I like it. I think it's an improvement over the existing power, but I'd tinker with the costs.

Re: Would you allow...

...a character with a 12d6 EB and a Cosmic VPP to use the VPP to add dice to the EB?

Yes.

I don't feel any less wise...

I had my wisdom teeth removed this morning.

First time I've had surgery since I was a kid. Over the last few days the internal worry monologue has been getting a workout. Which sucks, because it never brings up any valid concerns, just paranoia. Every time it got to a dull roar, I fought it out of my head and asked for peace.

They escort me into the operating room. I went with the general anesthetic, because being conscious and 'numb' for this didn't strike me a fun. They start by strapping me down to the table because they claim sleeping people tend to roll over, but it just starts to make me feel claustraphobic and anxious. Cue worry, back in force.

Then they wheeled over the IV.

God, I hate needles. Haven't given blood, even though I'd like to, because of that. Somehow, I didn't go into a panic attack, mostly thanks to the excellent staff there.

The good news is that the procedure went without any known hitches (Yes, I've had a surprise hitch in the past...that's a pretty funny story actually), and the pain has already lessened to very tolerable levels.

I really want a sandwich, tough.

Quickie musing, unrelated,not so random: I only hope for there be a resolution soon. Please.

Re: Help: Time Villains

First of all, thanks to everyone who contributed to the thread. I appreciate you sharing your opinions. They've helped me make some informal decisions.

I own Champions Presents and really like the Menace out of Time adventure, and was tempted to just use those rules carte blanche, but something about their rigidity bothered me when I started working up this villain. Part of the fun of the Comic Book genre is the flexibility in story telling, and all the "you cannot" stuff doesn't lend itself to that.

The primary, long term, reason for the existence of this character is to (along with the PCs) resolve a mysterious event in the campaign world history. The character must be able to travel to the past for this to work. So, travel along the time-stream in each direction is possible. This was a given, based on my plans for the future of my game.

A few rules I've decided to use:

- Time travel takes a great deal of force/energy to accomplish. The further along the time stream you want to go, the more energy it will take. The expenditure (and the resulting residue) is easily detectable as an occurrance of time travel with the proper senses/equipment.

- Changes to the time-stream are possible, but major ones are extremely difficult. However, any type of change will likely result in unintended consequneces. Any attempt at major change in the time-line will absolutely result in a cascade of unexpected moderate and minor changes. (ie. You can kill Hitler before he rises to power, but it is likely that someone will take his place and WWII and some kind of Holocaust will still happen, but not anything near to what you remember).

- You can visit a time period more than once, but doing so can be a very, very, bad idea. To begin with, every time you return you risk seriously altering the events of your previous incursions, affecting your own past and causing paradox (and possibly insanity). Worse, if, by chance, you happen upon a previous incursion serious personal and/or temporal damage can happen (temporal rifts, death, etc.).

- PCs who wish to time travel will be forced to suffer my stern GM Glare of Ultimate Scrutiny.

- All these rules are in place, except when they are not.

I think that'll do, for now. The only addition I might make is the "nature abhors the time traveler" rule from Menace.

Now, for the next part. Building the character. I'd rather he not be a typical obsessive perfectionist or master villain. I'm not big on cliche. I liked the time travelling thief from JLU. He was vulnerable, but resourceful. I'd like a touch of tragedy as well. I have ideas, but I'm looking for second opinions. Here, mull these over, please:

That's all I got for now. Thanks again!

Howdy, Champions assembled! I'm getting ready to start Year Two of my Champs campaign, and I find myself in need of the strength of your collective experience. Here's the deal, I've got this sub plot that I've begun tossing seeds out about and would like to resolve sometime in the next year or two. The problem is that in order to resolve it then, I need to introduce a new villain to the Justice Force Rogue's Gallery now. So, to get the juices flowing, I'm looking for ideas about time traveling and/or time manipulating villains.

How do you limit your time villains?

Do you establish rules about time travel ahead of time? What kind of rules have you used?

What keeps the thief from going back to steal the artifact again and again?

What keeps the conqueror from going back to adjust his strategy again and again?

What kind of personalities have you given your time villains? Are they megalomaniacs? Cool amoralists? Kooks?

What kind of motivations have you given them?

Thanks in advance!

Re: Could your Champions character beat...

HOLY BE-JEEZUS!!!

 

Man... talk about stat inflation.

 

I can't even conceive of playing with those kind of stats. What? Are your thugs all 29 DEX?

 

 

CRAZY I say!

You should see his write-up for Aunt May. The old girl hangs with Mary Lou Retton on the un-even bars.

Re: Could your Champions character beat...

Not in my world' date=' it's not excessive. Not for him, I'm considering him the world's greatest fighter and his DEX as part of it among the top. I really didn't concentrate on it from a Marvel world perspective, so it's a different context to consider.[/quote']

 

Just so we have some perspective, what's Spidey's DEX in your world?

Re: Stat Increase = Skill Increase?

I've never seen that done in a game before. Can you tell me where that would be in the rule book? That seems so unwieldy to me.

IDHMBIFOM* so I cannot answer your question, though I can assure you that it is true. However, I'm a bit surprised by your assertion. I mean, Dungeons and Dragons, the most popular RPG in the world, does this. What RPGs do you normally play? Why do you find it unwieldy? If a man grows stronger, his ability to perform strength related feats should increase, shouldn't it?

*I Don't Have My Book In Front Of Me

Re: Deathstroke

Oh thank god.

A thread with Deathstroke fanboyism, Cap vs. Bats, and bickering over write-ups. Damn. How have we lived without having this little piece of joy brought back to life sooner?

Hoo-ray for thread necromancy.

Re: No love for bases?

Champions Genre 5th Ed book has some write ups on generic bases' date=' but no maps for them I fear.[/quote']

 

Didn't need the map. Know the size, and drew the map already. The generic listing is very helpful though.

 

So, anybody got any custom made bases from their games?

Re: No love for bases?

There's an underground urban base example in Champions on page 106.

Gah! How'd I miss that!? I've read this book! mutter grumble

Well, very cool. That makes my life easier. Thanks MitchellS!

So I'm putting together a little (very small) Bat-Cave for a PC in my campaign. It's hidden and underground and very much suits his needs. I've never built a base like this before, and I hardly ever build bases anyway. So, I thought I'd look over some examples and see what inspiration I could glean.

Ok, so Champions has Homestead, and UNTIL has both deep sea and deep space bases and... that's it? There has got to be a sample nest written up in Viper, right? hmmmmmmm... nope. Damn it! Is there an official write up of a hidden (underground or otherwise) base somewhere that I've missed?

Otherwise, share your base write ups! Please! I'll post mine when I get it done. Thanks.

Re: Musings on Random Musings

no' date=' that's correct.[/quote']

 

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Re: Teamwork

High Defense Villain enters the field and makes initial attack. Player 1 and Player 2 half-move forward and attack. Player 1 make teamwork roll. Player 1's hit after defenses does 0 BODY and 3 STUN. Player 2's hit after defenses does 0 BODY and 0 STUN. However' date=' HD Villain is STUNNED from due to Teamwork roll.[/quote']

A who to the what now? I think one of us is misreading this rule (I mean, unless HD Villain has a CON of 2). Coordinated attacks add the STUN taken after defenses together to compare to CON for the purpose of being STUNNED. HD Villain took 3 STUN...that's it.

 

Here's the closest FAQ (No BIFOM) entry I can quote:

Q: Does it change how a Coordinated attack works if some attacks do Normal Damage and some Killing, or Hit Locations are used?

 

A: No. Each the attacks involved in a Coordinated attack applies against its relevant defenses in the regular manner, modified by Hit Locations as appropriate, and after you determine the total STUN damage the character takes after applying the relevant defenses to reduce each attack’s damage, add it together to find out if he’s Stunned.

That's the way I've always played it. Did I miss a rule change?

Re: Longest Running Thread EVER

I just had a thought, and take it only as a question not a suggestion.

 

Would it be "practical" or "feasible" to allow the creator of a thread to also be the moderator for said thread, at least within the NGD?

 

I'm just curious if that would relieve any of Ben's "burden", or if it would just make things go horribly wrong.

Re: A Thread for Random Musings

I'm sure I'm going to regret this, but...

I, Jonathan Bodey, a natural-born citizen of the United States, just wresteld with my 8 month old daughter to put antibiotics in her eyes. She's probably going to need surgery to clear the tear ducts. They say it's routine, but that doesn't matter when you're her Dad. The only thing I care about is her safety over this one trivial little thing. There are millions like me, caring about their little lives and wondering what all the raging noise is about.

My point is this: I don't give a rat's ass if you are "Lib'rul" or "Neocon". The truth of the matter is that lately you've all* been unreasonable ideological fcuktards from the party leaders right down to rank and file. You all have forgotten basic decency and the 'don't be an asshole' rule and occasionally just how to shut the hell up. There doesn't seem to be a place we can go without you folks raising a din where a murmur would do.

This is the Hero Games forums. Posting anything other than rules questions is a priviege, not a right. You may have Freedom of Speech at all times, but this company doesn't have to let you be heard here, but they do, and you guys all sure do a bang-up job of respecting that every single da---cough---Sorry, had a little sarcasm in my throat.

You want to be a bunch of assholes, go to Dailykos and Free Republic and spew there. Otherwise, do all the rest of us here a favor and close your sphincters for a while. The world won't fall apart if you do, and it'll sure smell better.

And that would be my 'random' musing. Hey, is that pie?

* Ok, "you've all" is a little strong. In retrospect I should have said something like "a sizeable number of you have" or "too god damn many of you have been". Mea maxima culpa.

Re: Please Critique

She looks fine for a villain. I allow villains to have a lot of quirks that I'd never let a PC slide with. Certain overly weakened defenses, weird psych lims are fine for an NPC sheet where things can be changed to suit your needs.

A few comments:

1. According to the background, she's part of a strike team working in South America. I see you've put in some skills to reflect that, but there are several others of note missing. 1 and 2 pt skills with the languages native to that part of the world. At least Spanish. A familiarity with Demolitions. Figure out why she was on the team besides kicking ass and shooting, did she have any other strengths? (Was she the Tactical Genius? The Scrounger? The Burly Mechanical Whiz? The Crazy Pilot?)

Being part of a strike team means she also had access to equipment. At the very least, if she needs it, she should be able to acquire some simple flak armor, and have a side arm. A high powered sniper scope would come in handy as well considering most of her powers are LOS.

2. Her powers are pretty straight forward. If I were building her I would make the Drain BOECV as well as Ranged so it acts like everything else. Actually, I'd change the Drain to a Suppress which is automatically Ranged, half the cost, and make it BOECV, but that's just me.

3. Characteristics. The only issue I have is the EGO, which is her primary stat. I'd either knock it up one or down one. Up one, your ECV goes up one and costs you two points. Down one, nothing changes and you save a couple of points. I mean, she's a villain, and points don't matter, but my Goodman senses are blaring at me every time I look at that.

4. Disads. Everything is fine except for (and you know what's coming) Fear of Color Yellow: Common, Strong. Captain Sunshine is going to kick her ass. Is there an actual rationalization here, or were you just fishing for points? If it's the former, I really want to hear it. Really. Really. However, if it's the latter, I can help with that. First, her two Hunteds say she has a Public ID, but she hasn't purchased the Social Lim for it. Then, build more of a personality than just Power Hungry and Protective of Teammates. If you are having trouble go here. Lots of ideas there.

Re: Teleportation, really that different?

Well... there is a history of Steve's gut responses to things being a little off... so take that for what it's worth. To me' date=' he has now changed the playing field from "To teleport unwilling with you, you have to have the advantage of UAA on your t-port." Now he seems to be saying, "To teleport the unwilling with you, you have to have t-port bought twice, once WITH UAA to teleport them... and once without, to teleport yourself... and somehow you can use both at the same time."[/quote']Wow. Yikes.

 

60 AP =

a) 30" Running

30" Flight

c) 10" Teleport (at most)

 

...if you want to take someone 'with you', involuntarily.

 

Ugh.

Yep.

 

I mean... ugh ugh.

My original point.

 

And you wonder why I stick with "Just grab and hold 'em like any other movement." ???

Nope' date=' never wondered in the least. I just wondered why people hadn't raised much of a stink over this. Maybe everyone else but me saw the validity, but that's been proven false. I mean, Damage Shield is [i']tame[/i] by comparison.

Re: Teleportation, really that different?

Alright, how does this question on UAA and Steve's answer factor into the original discussion? I think I just got more confused.

----------

As for the tangent, well this is where an actual discussion of the benefits and limitations of each type of movement would be handy. HERO was originally designed for Supers, so it would make sense in the genre that Flight would be relatively cheap. Teleport was made a little more expensive, depending on what the character was trying to do with it. Now that HERO is more a Universal Toolkit than just Champions the Super! Roleplaying Game, does Flight's Turn Mode balance with Running's ground movement balance with Teleports lack of velocity?

Re: Teleportation, really that different?

Now... this way' date=' a strong target has a good chance of foiling the Grab because even their casual STR can break the t-porter's initial grab (that free breakaway everyone gets) and the use of UAA negates this.[/quote']

Just as a note, the 'free breakaway' is an optional rule, and one that I don't play with. If a character has such a higher SPD that he can Grab and Teleport before the grabbed character gets an action, then it's because he paid the points for that ability. In my 10+ years of GMing that's never been a problem for me.

 

Now, before this brings on a whole other round of rules parsing and bickering, I would have absolutely no problem playing in a game where this rule is used. I just don't use it.

Re: Teleportation, really that different?

True' date='environment does play into certain circumstances, but how common those circumstances are is a major basis for advantages and limits. [...'] So if Teleport has more "environmental advantages" than another movement power, it should cost more.

It already does. What I don't see is any valid reason for it to cost more than twice as much per inch in all circumstances to sometimes take someone else involuntarily along.

And the fact that at least some' date=' if not many, of the special effects result in you doing more than just picking up a character and moving them via flight or leaping is relevant since we are 1. consistently asked to reason from effect - so some expensive powers will be less effective than others at times, just because of the mechanics,[/quote']

Agreed, and that's acceptable. I don't see how making Teleport less than half as effective for the same points all the time is really justified, though. Especially when moving someone involuntarily with any other Movement power has a set way of handling it - requiring the STR to hold them while you move, and that being able to Teleport someone else already requires more points than any other Movement power before the Advantage is thrust upon it.

 

and 2. to remember that' date=' especially where attacks and other things that could be potentially abusive are concerned, the most expensive build is the correct one. This is long standing HERO philosophy. So, if there is any doubt about whether Teleport should cost more or less, it costs more.[/quote']

'The most expensive build is the correct one' - Meta-Rule #6 - I disagree with the long standing status you assign to this particular piece of philosophy. My disdain for this poorly worded, under explained, overblown concept runs deep. I happen to ascribe to the 'Use what fits best' and "Keep it simple' philosophies, but those aren't Meta-Rules. Also, as I've said, Teleport already does cost more, and if you add the requirement of a Grab, then it balances fine. UAA has it's place, but it is hardly a necessary requirement to balance Teleport as a Movement power.

 

Meta-Rule #8: 'Change what you want.' I'm changing this UAA requirement as I've detailed. I think it will best serve my games if I do. Zed-F did me the favor of giving me a good balanced reason for not dropping the extra phase for noncombat teleporting without having to cite a lot of environment specific situations. So, I'm keeping that. I was hoping for something similar on the UAA front. Maybe an actual rules based reason. I'm still not seeing one. The fact that it has worked fine for so long before 5th is probably why.

Re: Teleportation, really that different?

There is no need to be insulting.

I apologize. As I said, you have me frustrated. I think that's because we're arguing our stances differently. I'm arguing from 'It does' and you are arguing from 'It could'. So, it never feels like you really address any of my points. We're writing the same language, but we really aren't having a discussion.

As for the first' date=' I merely stated that the book was slightly unclear on the point and then offered a reason about why it might be written as is.[/quote']I disagree. I think the book is very precise on this point. There is no lack of clarity. You might think it could be interpreted differently, but it hasn't been.

 

I just think it's a bad rule.

Re: Teleportation, really that different?

I think that the reason Teleport operates under different rules is that a person's body is affected differently.

Wholly irrelevant in HERO. Teleport is an effect for a power that can be described a myriad of ways. It can duplicate Star Trek Transporters and moving so fast that people can't see you. There is no set defined effect on the character's body. None.

With flight' date=' if I grab someone and then take off, the normal rules of physics apply. But if I try to teleport someone, I have to, say, take apart their body and then reassemble it somewhere else.[/quote']

First of all, physics? What exactly are the physics of Superman's ability to fly while carrying a trawler? Second, you're presuming again. Nightcrawler's Teleport is quickly passing through another dimension. No disassembly reassembly there. Saying anything about how the power Teleport works is like saying that Energy Blast only spouts bursts of flame. HERO doesn't work that way.

 

Teleport being an actual Power' date=' requires you to do much more than just "hang onto them"[/quote']

That would be the crux of my argument. I don't think it should. It hasn't for four previous editions. I think it should work like any other movement power, because all you are doing is moving from one space to another without passing through the intervening space. How you do that is dependent on the character.

 

- so it is treated as if it was an AVLD vs. power defense.

A who to the what now? Validate this statement. Prove to me that in every character's possible interpretation of Teleport that moving an involuntary target along with you is akin to an AVLD vs. Power Defense.

 

So' date=' if you reason from special effect, it makes sense why you would need to buy UAA, even though it isn't perfectly balanced.[/quote']

I was going to say 'horribly broken', but my bias is showing through. Doubling the cost of one Movement power to allow it to do what every other Movement power does, simply because it works a little differently? Once again, I say utter bunk. Teleport already requires the purchaser to pay extra to teleport more than just themself and their costume, something other Movement powers don't have to do.

 

And since Teleport moves you "invisbly" and does not require you to plot a specific course through the various battlefield traffic' date=' I'd say it balances a bit better than it first appears.[/quote']

What about Mr Flight? He can slip the bounds of earth and take someone straight up into the air. X" every phase that he retains his grip on his opponent. I can work out situations for every single type of movement that gives them an advantage. Especially Gliding and Leaping and Swinging, where the 1pt = 1" cost allows their Movement to be huge in comparison.

 

 

After all' date=' if I grab someone and then try to fly off with them, everyone knows which way I went and I may provoke attacks of opportunities when I take off.[/quote']

Attacks of opportunity? What game system are you playing? What if you leap off with someone? With a cost of 46 for both 46" of Leaping and 23" of Teleport, I bet Mr Leaper could easily outrun the competition and vanish just as easily.

 

With teleport' date=' I could grab someone and port into a building down the street with no one having any idea what direction I went, then port again and again - and no one could track me because they would never see which direction I went.[/quote']

Ah, but I have N-Ray Vision! I see every place you go and follow you! Yay me!

 

We could play the game of 'I could' all day long Mike, but you're bringing the environment back into it again. Environments will help or hinder every character based on how they spent their points. Teleport is no different...except for that double cost UAA Advantage thing.

 

Since the teleport essentially has "invisible power effects" built into it' date=' particularly if you are clever about porting, the UAA requirement helps to balance this out.[/quote']

Well, then I could easily make a case for Flight needing UAA too. I mean, after a couple of Phases straight into the air, being let go of could seriously hurt. I think Fliers should have to use Flight UAA to take an unwilling opponent with them, too.

 

You aren't really arguing my points as much as coming up with a whole bunch of circumstances where Teleport works really well. You can do that with any power, except maybe 'Taste, usable at Range'. Every Movement power is a good power. Teleport has its benefit, but it has its limitations built in. This UAA requirement is wholly unecessary when you compare it to other Movement powers and modify it to work like them. I'll be going back to that in my game, and allow my Teleporting Dark Avenger to do that once he buys Increased Mass.

Re: Teleportation, really that different?

Alright, Mike, you have me frustrated. I don't think you actually do me the honor of actually reading my posts, you just skim them and, once you think you understand, you respond. It's causing problems. Like this one:

The book is actually slightly unclear on this. As you pointed out' date=' under Increased Mass, it says that the target must be willing, but the generic text does not specifically say that (though it does refer you to the Increased Mass adder).[/quote']

In Fred' date=' the description for the increased mass adder says "the character does not have to be able to carry this additional mass; [i']he only has to touch it[/i] " It then states that you need UAA to target another person. NOWHERE does it say you need an actual grab. Only a standard hit roll. And the wording would imply that even if you were willing to do away with the "must have UAA" for teleporters who were willing to go with the target, they still wouldn't need an actual grab maneuver, just a normal "strike" maneuver, which means that they wouldn't have to take the -1 OCV and -2 DCV penalties that a character making a Grab roll would have to take.

Both I and Dust Raven know it says nothing about having to Grab. In fact, I think we would gladly cede that point. According to the rules in 5ER you just have to touch. No Grab. None.

 

OK?

 

Does that work for you?

 

Before I move on I want to be sure this point is clear:

 

5ER does not require a Grab. It requires a touch, possibly a Zero Phase touch, and UAA to take someone involuntarily. I am in no way attempting to interpret the rules on p234 as requiring a Grab. Ever. I do not read the rules that way. However, I think this rule that Steve has written is crap. I think it is unfairly penalizing Teleport. I am working on a solution that will make myself and my game happy. THAT'S IT.

 

No on to the rest of your points...

Teleportation, really that different? redeux

Okay' date=' to start with. Forget everything you think I said earlier, because we were apparently talking at cross purposes. I didn't say a lot of the things you think I did, and I suspect that what you were saying wasn't quite the same as what I was reading.[/quote']Done. I had hoped that was the case.

 

Now to answer the specific question you just posed:

 

As it stands, the teleporter does not have to make a grab maneuver to teleport an unwilling target...he gets full CVs(he only needs to TOUCH the character, not grab the character). Also, the targeted character gets ported ON THE SAME PHASE that he is touched, no contested STR roll to break out, no chance for a teammate to save him(unless said teammate has a held action, even then it is dubious). A "grab and fly" generally has more ways for the victim to break out than a "touch and teleport". The "grab and fly" requires an extra action because the grab roll ends Flying Brick Man's turn and the flying follows the attack. But Teleport, useable against others IS the attack, so the character moves as soon as the attack roll hits.

Yes, that is how it works according to the 5ER rules, and if, in fact, a player wanted their character to have the ability to reach out and touch someone casually and teleport away with them, no matter how they felt about it, I would consider that a valid use of the UAA Advantage. I have, in fact, written as much previously:

 

 

I have a crazy idea. How about a rule that says moving someone involuntarily with Teleport has the same requirements as moving someone involuntarily with any other movement power: You have to Grab them first. If you want to do it by touch, then you need the Advantage, as that would be seriously advantageous. Otherwise, Teleport is a Movement power, and should be kept in line with other Movement powers as much as possible.

 

underline added for emphasis

The Advantage makes sense if you are just touching as a Zero Phase Action and teleporting your target (and possibly yourself) away. That's using Teleport as an attack and is textbook UAA.

 

However, when I capitalized Grab in the quoted paragraph it wasn't because I have a penchant for random capitalization. I was referencing the attack maneuver Grab. The point I was trying to make was that if I build a character with 23" of Flight, they can successfully perform a Grab on someone and, willing or not, carry them along on their next Phase, but my friend's character with 23" of Teleport is unable to do that without an Advantage. Which is utter bunk, and thus far has not been supported by anyone as being the least bit balanced.

 

Grab is the attack. Teleport is just movement, and it should be allowed to work just like all the other Movement powers.

 

Was that better?