BeZurKur

Re: Impact of Figured Characteristics (Although GA is no longer following the thread, the open nature of a forum warrants a reply.) The example of the gymnast was taken out of context: checking back will see it was to serve as a model for a points/cost question. IF there was a point to be made from it, I suppose, it could be that the elusive build 6e made possible was indeed always available through the use of levels. I know that many like the decoupling of Dex to CV, but this thread is not so much about coupling Dex back to CV. It is about finding a balanced cost between the related char, skill leves, Lighting Reflexes, and CVs so that no option is left out or made meaningless. Coupling them back is a possibility I'm exploring, but I'm partial to them. However, my preference is irrelevant if we can find a way to make all the options (including CSL, SL, and LR) meaningful.

Re: Impact of Figured Characteristics I mean the Dotted Line Link that Rapier first mentioned way back on page 1 (post #9) where he suggested buying the stats to the old figured values. Nothing is free. In the case of CV it means if you want a 15 Dex, then you must also buy OCV and DCV up to 5. The theory and ideal would be for the player to buy up the stats to the lowest common denominator where the "complete package" of CV, char rolls, and skill rolls delivers the most bang for the buck. Then buy up the other aspects up to concept. It is less economical, but you don't end up with stuff you don't need so in the end, you still pay less overall. Let's take for example the gymnast whose agility grants some inherent bonus in combat, but not equal to a highly-trained fighter. The player buys him a 13 Dex and 4 CVs. He then picks up 3 SL with Agility skills (15-) and he is a world class gymnast -- all with just a 13 Dex. Other than in combat, he is indistinguishable from a Martial Artist with a 29 Dex.

Re: Impact of Figured Characteristics Hugh, you grok the math better than I do. How would your proposed CSL costs match up with the 6e point structure if Dex was tied to CV, but you had to purchase it to the appropriate level? What if Dex was 1 point?

Re: Impact of Figured Characteristics

Re: Impact of Figured Characteristics Yeah, I meant that as a statement. That was poor sentence structure on my part.

Re: Impact of Figured Characteristics

Re: Impact of Figured Characteristics

Re: Impact of Figured Characteristics This is only true for the relationship between "base" characteristics, ©SLs, and CV. Making Dex, Int, and Pre 1 point solves their relationship discrepancy with the added benefit that it is sleeker as a whole, and like Matt pointed out before, reduces the gap between the king of stats: Str. I think the end point that should be changed is at the skill end of it. It would probably be easier too, since there is less synergy: no other effects such as pre attacks, perception rolls, etc. to factor in. I agree the logic for pricing Dex different doesn't seem right. You lost me a bit on the rationale for all three being 2 points. How much do we lose (if at all) if we adjust the points from the skill end? It may be the more elegant point structure and streamline design -- all stats from Str through Presence are 1 point -- can withstand a small discrepancy of costs overall.

Re: Impact of Figured Characteristics Personally, I'm not against the idea of decoupling (at least not anymore). Doing so solves the problem with Speed because everyone buys it up anyway. Combat order is what Dex does, so that's okay, and every other stat has char rolls as well so that aspect is inherently balanced with each other. (This is assuming decoupling.) The wall is with the CSL and SL. As is, they seem to be underpowered. Having the "soft" figured between Dex and CV seems to make CSL attractive again, which leads me to think that CVs are underpriced. As for regular SLs, the only thing I can think of is to cut out most of it and leave the parts that affect different char based skill, such as Large Groups and All-Noncombat. Hugh, you make a convincing argument. Just curious, what was the rationale you came across for the current model?

Re: Impact of Figured Characteristics Hugh, what if Dex and CV were not decoupled? Looking at it from a characteristic and skill roll angle, it would cost 32 points for a 14- and only 24 points to achieve the same with Skill Levels (+3 to Agility Skills and +3 to Dex Rolls). That certainly supports your theory that Dex is overpriced, but if we keep Dex tied to CVs doesn't that close the gab between skill levels and straight char buys? Consider the theoretical build of your multipower above versus the CSL build and throw in the adjustment for a 14- roll as well. My numbers came out to be 75 points for the MP version and 72 points through SLs. Throw in some Lighting Reflexes and the two are pretty comparable. My point is that thrown all together, there is little difference between buying skill levels and straight characteristic buys, but that seems to be true as long as Dex is still tied to CVs. The advantage to CSLs and SLs is not a point break, but that you can pick what you want. For the whole package, the char approach still delivers more for less points overall. Whoa, wait a minute... Int and Pre aren't attached to any CV. Could that be why they're still at one point? If so, then Dex is overpriced and the CVs underpriced (like you said before). Although the price for Dex and CVs combined seems to be about right.

Re: Impact of Figured Characteristics (Interesting point on the increase of points available, genre, and relationship to Dex/CVs. FWIW, I'm grateful to the posts in this thread for highlighting some design choices and game options. As a result, my perspective on this has shifted since the threads's inception.) I like the decoupling, providing you buy them up to figureds, because you see the points where they go as they're being spent. If it's not to your liking, there are probably other cheaper ways to get what you want as long as you don't mind making compromises in areas that probably don't matter as much. Also, I'm convinced that Int and Pre should be worth 2 points apiece.

Re: Impact of Figured Characteristics Yeah, but for me, decoupling Dex from CV makes CSL and Lighting Reflexes (there may be others) non-options. Yeah, we still have them, but really... why bother? There are a lot of fine tune adjustments in levels (i.e. options) that are now overlooked. However, I do like the new costs. A 23 Dex with CVs bought up to 8s cost 76 points, a considerable increase over 5e. Those CSL are really looking tempting now. The energy projector who relies on his force field for defense with 5 attack powers in MP is better off with a lower Dex and making up the difference in CSLs. Yeah, he's easier to hit, but high DCVs are the martial artist's gig. I see keeping CV tied to Dex as more options because it opens up all the possibilities of CSL and lighting reflexes, which have largely been ignored throughout all the editions. Now, there have been some convincing arguments through this thread for the fine control between OCV and DCV, and I mostly agree with them. In those cases I like the option to fine tune, but only in those exceptions.

Re: Sample Kingdoms That just convinced me to purchase Ultimate Base. Did everyone "roleplay" a gang? I'm very interested in how you ran this.

Re: Impact of Figured Characteristics

Re: Impact of Figured Characteristics Agreed, Rapier: we'll see what time holds for 6e character design. In the mean time, buying stats up to "figured" levels with only occasional exceptions based on concept is working out very well for our group. Thanks for all the feedback, everyone.

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Re: Impact of Figured Characteristics For better or worse, looking over the Champions in the recently released PDF, it looks like they used the dotted line reference in coming up with the numbers. They're not exact but pretty close -- even to the point of non-mentalists buying OMCVs. Why? Since my original post, I have three games of 6ed under my belt, and so far -- although it is still early -- I am believing it is the best iteration of Hero yet. (FWIW, I've played since 1ed, took a long hiatus after 4th, played a little of 5th, and am back with what is looking to be an ongoing campaign of 6th.) My peeve is not so much that they got rid of Figureds, but that they expect the reader to inherently know about them. That the Champions use the dotted line reference seems to support this. With it, I noticed more use of CSLs, which I like.

Re: Impact of Figured Characteristics Hey all, FWIW, just thought I'd mention that I decided to go with a straight take on 6e. That is: no figureds but with Rapiers "dotted line link" and Tasha's suggestion for clear campaign guidelines. I'm still not crazy that I bust out the calculator while having HD open. However, the math is not hard and although I can't help think that some players maybe a little lost without the dotted line link reference, that's not an issue with our group. Thanks for everyone's feedback.

Re: Impact of Figured Characteristics Excellent point on the utility of 5pt CSLs, Tasha. I also agree on the importance of campaign guidelines. I'm not entirely on board with making characters for new players. I understand why a GM would want to, but Hero doesn't play very different than other games, other than the Speed chart, and IMO, it is not necessarily a selling point. Where Hero really shines is as the ultimate toolbox. That's what I was showcasing to the new player. Thanks for the insight, though. You gave me a few things to think about. I figured on the 5e costs, but the EC take... that's really interesting!

Re: Impact of Figured Characteristics Thanks for the heads-up, Doc. I'll look for those hidden templates. @Rapier, I think I get why people like not having figureds. For some, however, it may be harder to grasp. Last week I was making a character with a friend who never played Hero. When it came to the "Figureds" and the CVs, he was at a loss. Without a point of reference of what his character should have, he was in a free-fall. The only way I got him to get it was by defaulting to the old way of handling them. Once he got his bearing, it was easy for him to work it out from there. It's not just him either; I find myself still doing the math to get me in the ballpark. You call it the dotted line link, but that only works for people like us who have that connection to the previous editions. He was able to wrap his head around the benchmarks for the prime characteristics, but the abstract mechanical ones (i.e. figureds) were more confusing. For those characters that go against the norm, like your agile giant, CSLs and SLs handle those occasional exceptions. In fact, I'm not sure CSLs are even worth it now that you can directly purchase CVs; the jury is still out on that one. I'm not saying Figureds are best for everyone, but if I find myself still crunching the numbers -- that HD used to do for me -- then it clearly is better for me. YMMV.

Re: Impact of Figured Characteristics So far, the changes -- within the mechanics -- seem easy enough: lower overall character points and one skill adjustment. The Hero Designer adjustment appears harder. Up to this point, I've used HD as is. I'll be looking into the documentation and see what I can put together. If it is too much work for the return, I'll probably follow Chris' suggestion of a 5e template plus custom powers. Doc Democracy's observation that the ratios were designed to emulate one type of genre is interesting. Although I'm not sure if those came first. My take is that the ratios were designed for play balance -- whether they were successful or not is another matter -- and a world genre norm emerged from that. But that's all chicken-n-egg stuff. That a standard emerged, regardless of what came first, is undeniable. Thanks for the feedback, everyone. If anything else comes to mind, please post it as well. This is an experiment, so I'll gladly accept any thoughts on the matter.

I like figured characteristics. It's not a deal breaker -- and overall I like the tweaks 6e made -- but the rational of figured characteristics simply clicks in my head. So, I'm thinking of going back to those but otherwise using 6e. Here are my questions: Aside from CSLs (which would go back to a 5e cost), is there anything else that needs adjusting? Can Hero Designer be easily adjusted to handle the change? (Easily being someone without programming knowledge.) If is is too hard, I'll probably stick with 6e as written.

Re: What pre-5th Edition Hero books do you still use? Normals Unbound Underworld Enemies Creatures of the Night and occasionally, Corporations

Re: Simplifying Power Construction? For better or worse, but isn't that what Fuzion did?

Re: Elminating stacking problems - and more - with a new approach (credit to Tesuji)