Manic Typist

Brian Sanderson's Mystwraith stuff would be potentially useful, as the original trilogy is set in a world covered by ash. 


You should also consider what kind of bizarre flora and fauna would thrive in this strange world.

Anyone in the area? Anyone at all?

...then I say Valle Con Dios!..

 

Point of information: This means "Valley with God!"

Vaya con Dios, however, probably meets your needs.

Not criticizing, just trying to be helpful.

Based on the trailer Part Two is more of his amazing ghost-like ability to walk straight in the front door and shoot everything that moves.  I'm starting to think the Russian thing about Baba Yaga was just to scare the kid, not because John Wick was in any way remotely stealthy.

Baba Yaga isn't a stealthy monster stalking you from the shadows.

Baba Yaga is an unstoppable force that will ruin everything you hold dear and leave you either dead or wishing to be dead. People discuss her in whispers at night because they're afraid that if they talk too loudly they'll wake up to see her outside their front door in the morning.

 

Stepping on a long branch and the dry leaves rustling.

There's no range aspect with Invisibility - the leaves make noise (or don't) regardless of your range. Invisible PCs effects (footprints) aren't more visible at range - their cloaks aren't somewhat visible if they are really long, versus those PCs with just shortcloaks.

 

 

If it makes you happy, I will say it - if Invisibility to Hearing does not mask the sound of interactions with the environment, such as leaves crunching beneath the character's feet, then that should be consistently interpreted as also not masking the sounds of running across a hardwood floor (and leaving tiny dents and scuffs, even if they are not visible to the naked eye). Why do you think the floor wears out after years or decades of people walking over it? Accumulation of tiny amounts of damage - wear and tear. The leaves just "wear out" faster.

The sound emitted from first contact is totally covered, and the day that the concrete floor breaks from decades of people walking over it... that's the day that Invisibility:Hearing suffers from its difference from not being Darkness. All the other years of invisible people walking over it - nobody makes a sound.

But let's approach it from another angle:

1) What, if any, SFX would you describe to the Fringe of Invisibility:Hearing? And what are the mechanical consequences of that?

2) What, if any, scenario would be analogous in your mind to the accepted, RAW, and conventional situation in which an Invisible:Sight character leaves footprints in the snow/oil/mud/gets covered in flour/etc. to Invisible:Hearing?

 

 

The flaw in this logic is that there is precious little difference between the PC striding across a hardwood floor and striding across crunchy leaves, or through mucky ground that slurps at his boots as he lifts them and splashes as he lowers them.

 

Except there's all the difference in the world- one is a floor which the PC can sprint across and make no noise, and the other is a situation in which they are breaking things. The leaves are the same scenario as the floorboard breaking.

It's interesting that in your devil's advocate post, which you agreed with pretty much all of my examples of why Taylor's position is incorrect... that Taylor liked it as if he agreed. All those things that you agreed with... are the opposite of his position as articulated so far.

Also, bizarrely- no one has said that walking or running or doing jumping jacks across a hardwood floor should make noise. It would be extremely helpful if we could dispense with that straw man.

And while it might not be worth any points to silence your corduroy pants (I don't know that I've ever worn the material so I can't speak to how loud it is)... the example I offered is worth quite a few points. Being able to march around in full armor, clanking up and down stairs, drawing swords and (maybe?) attacking people in virtual silence is extremely useful. I can be fully armed and armored, sneaking up on/past guards with my overflowing treasure pouch on my hip jangling away... and make no noise.

Give me the ability to do that to a dozen knights, and in a night raid (har har, pun opportunity) I could take a over a castle as my troops march in under the cover of darkness and through the corridors of the castle. Very useful, worth some points.

Invisible to sound person walking on a pressure-sensitive mat: sets it off.

*snip*

Invisible to sound person walking on crunchy leaves, gravel, lego, whatever: no sound.

The thing is.... these two are the same thing. The pressure-sensitive mat is the same as the crunchy leaves, or marbles that get knocked around and clatter into each other, or the floor that groans as it redistributes weight because it has poor structural integrity and is on the verge of collapse... they all make noise because they are NOT the PC and therefore they make noise.

No one has argued that a PC walking across a hardwood floor with Invis:Hearing should be heard. The only ones who have argued that are using strawmen to not address the actual, valid argument: that things the PC DOES to the environment are not covered because this isn't Darkness.

Also, no one's argued that the PC should be "mute" because of this power, but we did point out that your reasoning suggested they SHOULD be to be consistent. Invisible:Hearing PCs who talk are heard, unless I'm misremembering the rules for the power. Could be.

PC walks across a hardwood floor- no noise. PC walks across a hardwood floor that collapses under the weight- the sound of a board snapping and falling below and clattering: noise.

Invisible:Sight PC runs through a wall - there's an outline of the PC in the form of a hole in that wall. By the reasoning you present, there shouldn't be a visible hole in the wall to make it consistent with Invis:Hearing.

Invis:Hearing PC falls from a great height - makes no sound as he moves through the air, makes no sound when he impacts the roof of a building - sound IS made when he plows through, sending debris everywhere. No sound when he hits the floor - sound made when he plows through. No sound made when he slams into the concrete and explodes. Sound made when people scream at the horrifying sight.

We're just trying to treat the two builds more or less the same, no one's trying to do anything tricky or cheat the PCs.

PCs actions are covered (mostly. I would think an attack would be "visible" in the same way an Invis:Sight attacking PC's weapon would become visible). The world's reactions, the 2nd order effects, are not covered. Just like Sight.

Invisibility:Sight prevents the PC's body, clothing, and reasonable personal possessions to not be seen - this doesn't apply to the tracks he makes on mud, snow, dirt, grass, or scuffs on concrete, or opening and closing doors, etc.. Invis:Hearing prevents a PC's body, clothing, and personal possession from being heard- the sound of your boots on the floor, your hands slapping together, your armor rattling, the sound of you chambering a round/drawing a sword. Break something, knock something over, force another item to make a sound (a sound you probably couldn't make on your own anyway)... not covered.

Some chance sure, and the Fringe rules already address this. Tho if every character gets a full PRE Roll (which even most mooks have at least 11-) to notice invisible characters, then you have pretty-much nerfed the whole concept of Invisibility. And conversely if your position is the character already gets a chance to detect the Invisible Ninja, then the effect IMO should be to provide bonuses/penalties to that roll rather than to create an artificial (and RAW-dodgy) construct to duplicate that roll.

Yeah, I'm thinking a -4 to detect (-6 if No Fringe). Just like I might notice the lighting situation change because the ninja had stepped between a light source and myself (amateur move), or smelling the ninja. It's a subtle thing, but noticeable. That's how I've always treated it - Invisibility is very useful, but at close range it's not perfect. If you want that, buy Invisibility to every Sense Group you can.

You are not trying to be stealthy on sound because you already have the ulimtiatve Sound Stealth working (Inivisbility [Hearing Group]).

You are trying to be stealthy on the sight area wich is inherently different from audible stealth. Stuff like environment actually blocking you.

 

What you describe is a cirtical failure while trying to be Stealthy vs Visibile senses. Why would a critical failure there cause a hearing impression?

Why not simply the other person turning around to light a cigarette just that moment, putting you plain in his sight*?

You are trying to cause an issue, where the should be no issue.

 

*Having some decent ability to predict the targets movement behavior is integral part of Sight Group Stealth.

You're being needlessly antagonistic and assuming intentions, or you don't recognize that your language portrays that image.

If your opinion on the issue is simply "no," then a better (concise, responsive, and not seemingly insulting) would have been "No, Invis: Hearing would make that SFX for a failure inappropriate. A better SFX would be [insert visual cues]. Remember, common sense and GM'd judgment apply."

Regardless, the issue isn't black and white as you portray it. Surrealone disagrees with you, and so do I. I think it's a perfectly valid description for a critical failure situation. You seem to think that Invis:Hearing should have a much broader penumbra than the book suggests. Would you also rule that talking loudly as an Invisible:Hearing character does not make a sound, because of the power? I'm inferring that you would, but please correct me if I've misread your position.

To avoid having the wrench make a sound when falling, the PC should buy Darkness vs. Hearing Group. Interestingly, a Darkness bubble centered on the PC would accomplish a very similar effect but with different implications. I'd consider allowing that build.

With respect to the larger question of "seeing tracks/hearing crunches, why is one definitely ok and the other debatable?" issue, perhaps we should consider the 1st/2nd order nature of these perceptions scenarios.

With Sight, I cannot see you, but I can see evidence of you/your presence. You physically disturb the world, and I can use Sight to see those disruptions. Snow is obvious, but in theory I could detect you moving through plants or standing on grass. So I don't have a 1st order perception (of you, yourself), but I do have a 2nd order perception (impacts of your actions/presence).

With Sound, I cannot hear you step on the crunchy substance (1st order), but you are still impacting the world. You are still stepping on glass/sticks/pottery shards, and if they break in response to your weight, THEY emit a sound. That seems 2nd order and valid to me. Walking across crunchy things that DON'T break should be silent (no crunch), even if normally my boots might make a sound by moving them around or making contact with them (just as walking across a floor makes a sound without breaking anything).

I hadn't previously considered this, but based on the two threads going on right now, I'd rule that a PC wanting to be able to interact with the world (walking across crunchy things, speak, snap guards' necks or break twigs, knock wrenches off shelves, whatever) without that sound being audible to others should buy Darkness.

So if the PC with Invis:Hearing wanted to move through some underbrush and not make noise, I'd advise that PC to move slowly so as to not break anything, and drag feet through the piles of sticks that people left lying around so as to not break them.

That's pretty clearly worded. You can claim it's a Touch Group thing all you want, but unless you would give the character a Touch PER Roll to notice an approaching invisible ninja if they didn't have the power active, then you're using the Trigger to turn a non-sensory power into a sensory power which is clearly against both letter and spirit of the Trigger rules.

 

Don't get me wrong: I have no problem with bending, folding, spindling and/or outright mutilating RAW when needed if that's the only way to achieve the desired effect. But there are several simpler ways to do the same thing that work better, aren't terribly expensive, and don't violate RAW. Either call it a Detect or Enhanced Perception or just Change Environment.

I would definitely give a PC a roll to detect a ninja with Invisibility: Hearing Group sneaking up on them if they were walking along the same floor. I've frequently felt people walked up behind me even if I hadn't noticed them.

Also, the wording says "characters cannot use Trigger as a cheap way to detect phenomena they could not ordinarily perceive." To me (and please correct me since I haven't read the Sense section in a long time), that means you couldn't do this to detect something that the character couldn't perceive even without invisibility being involved. I can NORMALLY perceive the sound of someone walking on crunchy objects - it's the Invisibility in this case that makes the situation abnormal.

It would be odd, even, to suggest that there is a situation in which it is normal for a PC to detect something that is Invisible. Not impossible, but... it would get a double take from me.

Let's complicate it: Let's say they roll poorly on Stealth while using this ability (you're invisible to Hearing so you need to sneak around to not be seen) and you roll poorly - you knock a wrench off a shelf. Does it make a sound when it hits the ground?

But Foci are also covered by Invisibility. Foci like Power Armor. Or if the user was just mascerading as a Ghost for Halloween and wearing a sheet with holes anyway.

So at wich point does this sheet thrown over him change from a Foreign Object to a focus/equipped item?

And I mean without infering certain Limitations.

I'd think common sense would make it clear that a sheet (or powder, or water, or oil, or dirt, or whatever) thrown onto an invisible character would obviously not be a foci that they were using/possessing. You don't control the foci of the Entangle you a captured in, for instance. Not to mention, it happened after the invisibility was activated. I'm pretty sure it's a different build to turn things you pick up (that you can't fit inside your already invisible pockets) invisible upon contact.

Now, if the character deactivates and reactivates the power to then hide the sheet/dirt/whatever.... sure.

Suggestion:

Everyone in the world who is not immune to this effect (not from Absentia) takes a Zero Point Complication: Can't Remember People from Absentia.

If someone wants to counter this, then they can use Transform or buy off the Complication and this will indicate that they've found a way around it.

I thought we were talking about Invisible to Hearing, in which case the Fringe gives the sneak-ee a Hearing PER Roll. (Which could be modified by CE.) If you're assuming the Fringe is on Invisible to Sight, then yeah that wouldn't be relevant here.

You know, I realized this after I was driving to work and thought "Man, that was stupid of me."

However, it should still leave visible signs of passage - the fact that the ice crystals were broken, tracks in the snow, etc. For that, you need a good Stealth roll/Survivalist/etc.

How about you create a simple table that ranks how likely/coincidental it could be, and then assign it an appropriate modifier.

Easily Explained: +0

Curious: -1

Odd: -2

Downright Weird: -3

Ok, Something's Going on: -4

DID YOU SEE THAT?: -5

Alternatively, you could make it exponential, and assign much larger penalties.

Then you just need to evaluate what the kind of criteria divides these groups. I'd suggest most of the weight is in the SFX, so people who take IPE are more likely to get "subtle" scores than those who take the Visible Limitation.

Wait, Fringe is about the chance to notice the Active Power in question - so a No Fringe would do nothing to mitigate the effects of attempting to walk stealthily, let alone walk stealthily through a field meant to trigger noise when someone passes through.

Has anyone here ever taken the drug Neurotin? It's for nerve damage (which I have) and creates a similar effect if you haven't developed a tolerance to it or take too much. I want to create that effect only stronger and not drug induced

The drug induced aspect is basically just special effect. Remember, in HERO we reason from Effect. You can have two identical builds with very different SFX.

Or perhaps if its completely incapacitating, it could be some version of Entangle vs. DMCV with a mental SFX?

At the same time, "my character is immortal" as a 3 point background ability should be no more useful than "Profession: Police Detective" with the relevant background. The latter does not give you a network of informants, several investigative skills and contacts in the police, justice and government systems without further points spent.

 

But it comes back to "if he has to pay 3 points, the game needs to treat those three points as having impact in the game".

Yes, exactly.

I get the argument, but the premise is flawed. This is not a show of skill, but reasoning why the story goes forawrd.

The character having that long life is the reason he can identify that tablet and thus is the reason why there even is that tablet.

The premise is sound; your assumptions are flawed.

Finding the MacGuffin that the PCs must find to advance the story is something that a smart GM will guarantee and should not be subject to the risks of capricious rolls.

Rewarding a PC for the clever use of abilities by paying attention to the setting and engaging with the full depth of their character sheet... is an optional thing, a bonus.

Something a good GM would look for opportunities to give to their PCs, but not required to advance the plot. So in the original scenario, it would be to gain non-critical (but still useful or at least interesting) info....perhaps a warning about a deadly golem left behind to guard the MacGuffin?

Interestingly, no one has argued that Longevity should be used as a skill.

My example, that you quoted, described it as a modifier or event just an justification to ALLOW a roll to take place.

So it would be a way for a PC to say "Hey, this Skill that I paid points for... could I maybe apply it to this situation based on this Perk/Talent/Power/etc. that I also paid for?"

Example: PCs encounter a strange script in a burial mound that they fell into (it was hidden below ground and previously unknown - things had been built up over it long ago).

There's no record of the script in any official history because the civilization that built them disappeared before the current civilization ever even began to arise in the area- it's a completely lost tribe that was not recorded at all by anyone else.

KS: History of Midland Region will NOT include this, because this is from a history that predates that region even if it occupies the same geographical space.

However, with Longevity, a GM might allow this KS to be relevant- because the PC's knowledge from experience could include things not available to someone who learned this history via books/oral history.

Two thoughts, because so many others have already covered (very thoroughly) the pros/cons of a point for Longevity.

1) We frequently require PCs to spend X-points on Y-category to gain access to Z-ability. For instance, a wizard must invest at least 10 points into Ice Magic in order to learn/acquire higher level ice magics (The Reserved Magics of he Northern Umbra, as opposed to the Flurries of the Frost). Or you must spend so many points in Martial Arts KS in order to use the Martial Maneuvers associated with an art. Or more simply, one must have the "Touched" talent (5 points) to be able to use magic at all in X-setting.

This, essentially, constitutes a tax. A price to play. Therefore Longevity can be thought of in similar terms, while offering minor direct benefits like the above examples.

2) Many powers/abilities have indirect uses in play, especially roleplaying. You can perform Power Tricks, use an ability to intimidate or in an unexpected way that's not strictly in its description, etc.

Older nobleman giving your PCs some grief about showing proper respect? "I knew your father when he was knee high to a grasshopper, child. You should respect YOUR elders." +X to social interaction roll.

"Is there a chance I've seen this obscure language before, even though it's not on my sheet?" - a chance at a roll, modified by relevant skills.

There are more kinds of examples, obviously, though I feel most fall into the social/knowledge/language arenas.

Interesting. My thoughts go to tropes such as The Face, the Leader/Tactician, the Bruiser/Heavy, the Team Mascot/Moral Center, etc.

I am afraid I got almost none of that. Could you try again in different language? The first bit sounds like you you are threatening a god to make them force/coerce/convince another god to use their power for you? That seems outright suicidal to me.

 

The second bit sounds like a type of bipolar disorder, BPD or maybe DID? Not sure I need clinical insanity to make a good villain. =)

 

- E

A ver, estoy usando tu lenguaje a describir el proceso, entonces no es una amenaza a menos que TU entiendes que un "favor" tiene un entendimiento abnormal...

Or, like I said the first time in plain English... it's calling on the favor of a more powerful deity to compel a favor from a less powerful but more (in this circumstance) immediately useful deity. So unless you meant that followers of a deity obtain a favor (how you described this system in the first place) from their deity is via threatening it.... there's no possible way to interpret it that way.

So you ask your Big Powerful War Deity to compel (or perhaps trade) a favor to from a small Harvest Deity to help you gain food on the march, for instance. It's not suicidal because you've got the support of the bigger threat... unless you get isolated, or outnumbered, our lose the favor of your deity.... or any other number of interesting plot lines that could take place from the second and third order ramifications of such an act. Wars have started for far less.

But perhaps you don't want it to work that way, or your pantheon doesn't have "aspected" gods in the way that they are limited in what kinds of boons they can grant (beyond size/power). I dunno, I was just asking to see if there was any grist for your mill in the thought.

And rather than psychosis, the other process I described is a feature of the psychology of pretty much every person on the planet. If you want to see a good example walked through in detail applied to magic, read "The Name of the Wind."