AnotherSkip

Shoo!

im tired of your straw men

 

go way.

id post a more intelligent answer except Oh gee willikers I tried allready to point out that _some_ of the rules are not totally useful to characters being built for points rather than a concept.

 

built to concept not munchkining powergaming ruleslawyering and you wont need D&D.

Sigh

 

 

Adds another item to the Steve Long's B-day/Christmas list.....

I dont have the quotes set up right so just deal with it.

 

Originally posted by tesuji

 

The assumtpion is that thats what most heroes do in their stories of myth and legend and that thats what the vast majority of games run have shown. As such, they give more coverage to that in the XP system but they do not force the advancement to be about that. The xp comes from meeting the challenges your GM defines, whether that means combat, social dynamic or ingenuity is up to him when HE defines the scenario and challenge.

[/b]

Right so you mr. I have rewritten much of 3rd edition are a follow the crowd kinda guy just like me? suuure.

 

Originally posted by tesuji

 

I haven't a clue what you think supports that assumption.

 

In DND, wealth is a metric, a benchmark used to assess character power. If your PC has a lot of wealth in gear above that expected per level, you should raise his "level" for your assessment purposes. if a character has less, you should lower it. Scenarios and such in various DND products show this even more explicitly with somewhat common cases where they list a NCP character as 1 level down from his level for challenge purposes because he has less than nornal gear.

 

I thought it was good of them to realize that gear had an impact and

to use this metric to help bring that to the Gms attention.

 

[/b]

 

Im not sure how you would define a naked 16th level fighter vs 12 Tuckers Kobolds as being a no xp situation. I cannot see how the D&D system could get so convoluted as to assume that every person has all of their monetary value on them at all times in good order. Most campaign situations i have been in the Gm strives, yes strives mightily, to remove the wealth factor from players in order to "challenge" them.

 

and that wealth beomes a mighty crutch. Heavily Experienced AD&D players look to their magical items first and Spells/feats second, attributes third then possibly Skills to get them out of a situation. There are so few skills it is not even funny.

 

Hero charactes typically Look at Skills, Powers(which includes Spells Feats and racial abilities) and maybe magical items if they have them.

 

So what happens to the poor player who doesnt realise he needs some of the important skills untill third or later level. Play catchup?

 

Pretty difficult to do in 3rd.

 

 

Originally posted by tesuji

 

If you are referring to custom built ones and that chart the foolishly provided which gave a kind hero-esque build, then i agree. In their defense, they did publish clarifications in which they said it was not intended to be a hero-esque permissive thing but was only to be used after you had decided an item was Ok to get a starting value and emphasized that the comparitive step against current items was still to be done.

 

in essence, they forgot to tell the DND players that "being built by the chart" is not sufficient and that a final comparitive subjective stage needs to be done.

 

if you are reffering to the main book items, assuming you use the erratta, all i can say is that i found most of their values to be close to correct. However, like with any price that is supposed to be relative to effectiveness, you MUST adjust these values based on the campaign and its challenges. A campaign focused on an invasion from the elemental plane of fire should increase the value of fire resistance items and chill weapons, for instance. This all comes back to effectiveness being subjective and tied to challenges.

 

[/b]

 

Ah, so you agree that the publishers of D&D 3RD are fools? why thank you. Id better not buy anything of theirs then or anything based upon thier system! thank you very much you just saved me alot of money. Yes Im being sarcastic. big surprise there.

 

Anyways so the whole system Still needs to be judged upon relative merits just like Hero?

 

Originally posted by tesuji

 

That remains true even in DND, which is what we are discussing.

 

OK, one thing i will repeat again. In the vast majority of heroic myths and legends, action films and stories regarding the fantasy genres, the heroes achieve success over the bad guys by some form of combat. This may come as a shock to you, but in the vast number of scenarios when heroic PCs win over a bad guy, some combat was involved, much like in those films, stories, and myths. (If this so shocks you, then you may need to sit down and catch a breath. I'll wait...)

 

So when it came to deciding which classes to present in the limited space in the main rulebook, they decided to keep each class with SOME combat capabilities, thinking that even if the adventure involved a lot of guile and subterfuge, there would likely bee some combat and that most of the time combat would be a predominant element. Thus all the main PC classes get some combat aptitude presented.

 

If you think this all is a silly notion and you do not see combat as a frequent element in adventure fantasy, well, then you probably have more than a smidgen of work ahead.

 

But again, this is setting. If you want to run a charlemaigne's court campaign where the vast majority of challenges are social, then you need to provide relevent classed. Fortunately, the game does provide you with some NPC classes which the Gm can use or alter to help meet his needs. The expert and the aristocrat (or was it noble?) are two great examples and I do allow these to be taken as PC levels if they wish. Book not in front of me but iirc the noble was almost all skills and social.

 

[/b]

 

OKies lets _NOT_ bring in NPC Sh***T classes, okies? I have a LOoooooong History of having a biiiig B*t*h about the stupidities of the "great and Noble division" between PC and NPC.

 

There also is a huge difference between _some_ combat capacity and heavy combat. all of the classes have significant heavy combat capacity. Try to deny it and ill laugh at you. Heck D&D is worried about armor for Mages, what a loon.

 

This Decision by the makers to have hack and slash classes (yes that is what they really are)is problematic. Frequently an author (totally different medium) uses combat to bring uncertanity and excitement to the adventure. The more complex books with better writers can write adventures without resorting to violence. or by making the violence something to not only be avoided if possible but entirely worthless and detrimental to the missions.... in essecnce violence is not necessary to the story or plot at all and could be done away with.

 

D&D has chosen an entirely different path. to get XP you need to face 13.3 equal rating challenge threats to "gain a level"... talk about a cold blooded points system. Now then it does not matter if these 13.3 apply to the quest or story line or not or even if the gm plays these threats appropriately. If a party of charcters at 12th level have a problem dealing with a pack of Kobolds and finally through a significant effort overcome the nasty buggers they are worth no xp. according to cannon 3RD. I much prefer the threatless system of Hero wherein the Gm determines how much challenge the players faced and awards xp based upon that and not some "written law" of xp awards based upon an unforgiving system of irregardless of whether or not tactically the gm can whip some poor players into a puddle..

 

Originally posted by tesuji

 

the multiclass rules allow taking any lclass level you want for whatever reason you want, barring GM restrictions and setting restrictions such as paladin or monk reclassing. Do you honestly expect them to throw a list of every possible reason to multiclass? That would be an overwhelmingly long one. isn't it much simpler to leave the reason behind the decision to the people playing?

 

 

I have yet to see a case where gaining a new level in anythiong weakened a character. About the only cases where that would be the case is where some element in the decision violated a restriction and cost him class abilities.

 

2. I fail to see how taking levels in classes to reflect the actions the character has already taken results in violating character concept. It seems to me that it would enhance it (allowing stats to reflect already performed deeds.)

 

For the three players among seven in my current game whose character concepts needed a tweak to the classes, It took moments to do so. The resuklt was a big happy for them.

I consider that worth the few minutes.

 

Why not play HERO? The list is long but basically it boils down to a ton more work, a much heavier and impactful system, and a learning curve which would, even after my spending a lot of manpower streamlining it as i did last time, scared off some of my current players. Even if i believed this weight and math focus had any substantial benefit (and i don't) the impact on new players would have driven me away from it. One of my players is the wife of another, she is 50 some years old and has never roleplayed before. because of the imopact light system, she pretty much got her character quickly and has out roleplayed most of the veterans. I would not have dropped the weight of hero on her and gotten anywhere.

 

HERO is a game focused on veterans of the hero game. its not friendly to new players. I value bringing new players into roleplaying and make a determined effort to bring new players into every single game i run along with my veterans.

 

Don't take my word for it about HERO and new players. look across these boards for discussions of hero lite and sidekick, even with posts from Mr Long himself.

 

SO, in choosing between playing hero and being willing to take the repeated suggestion to alter classes or create new classes to meet PC needs... i will take the latter.

 

[/b]

 

ok Lets face this you like a fiat system, frankly I have seen fiats abused more often than not, also I find it real difficult to rules lawyer a gm into doing stuff in the hero system. 3RD is a piece of cake to rules lawyer.

 

3RD also habitually brings out the worst in people IMNSHO. look at the people on the WOTC board and the munchkin flamewars. Heck look at Artucks personality. Ever wonder why a sweet guy like that became the guy he is today? AD&D.

 

Sure people are frightened of our rep unfairly given to us by D&D players. The same ones who moan about the points, the math etc.

and really cant see the freedoms we are insituting. so sorry bud. When was the last time you could make a spell do something new on the fly? My answer is HERO 5th Edition, so far it cannot be D&D.

 

Originally posted by tesuji

 

you must not have been on the boards when two different threads and about 3-4 questions on the QnA board went thru this already. Steve Long commented that if one did not like the rules one shouldn't use them, not that the rules were incorrect or the math at error.

 

Here is an off the cuff repeat of the example.

 

STR 60

Dex 30

CON 30

BOD 30

Int 10

EGO 10

PRE 10

COM 10

PD 12

ED 6

Stun 75

REC 18

speed 5

end 60

 

Extra limb tail (60 strength)

 

This character costs 205 for these traits.

 

Now if i buy the character with a strength 30 tail he costs MORE...

 

 

STR 60 (-1/4 on 30 strength)

Dex 30

CON 30

BOD 30

Int 10

EGO 10

PRE 10

COM 10

PD 12 (6 base and +6 bought*)

ED 6

Stun 75 (60 base and +15 bought)

REC 18 (12 base and +6 bought)

speed 5

end 60

 

Extra limb tail (30 strength only)

 

This guy costs 231.

 

* The cost could be 225 if the GM ruled that the PD from the extra strength was limited to the tail and since he was using called shots this still limited the PD and so PD was 12 base.

 

Rules to know...

HERO5.112 Limited manipulation which specifically spells out the way to point out extra limbs that use less than the full strength as a -1/4 limit on the STR or DEX.

 

HERO5.92 under characteristics which specifically states the if the limitation on the primary does not effect the figureds, then you dont get the figureds.

 

The organic flaw in the hero system shown here is the one i catalog as "buying a lim" where buying some relatively cheap power allows you to take a limit on some other more expensive element of the character, thus resulting in spending a few points to save a lot of points.

 

[/b]

 

OKies lesse first off ill Quote Steven Long You have done quoted his writings plenty plenty allready so lessee : Dont get too worked up over

how to buy thnigs in the Hero System, or is it there is no one right way to do things in the Hero system.

 

either or it does not really matter.

First off lets find out what you are trying to do.

the underlying philosophy to HERO (which D&D severly lacks IMNSHO) can be summed up very many different ways but the way I like to think of it is you get what you concieve for.

 

For example I can think of several different ways to build the character.

the first issue is not the points but the concept. From the way you are trying to mechanically limit the character it looks like you are not going for a Scorpion or Doc Ock Character but rather a Nightcrawler/devil character. Good you have a concept.

 

Now then you are trying to put the limit on the Str. How limiting is the limit on the actual Strength? Not very. In fact it could be argued that it is not at all limiting. Okies so with all four of your normal limbs you have 60 STR and with your tail (and tail only) you anly have 30STR. How is that really a limit? It is none IMNSHO. The real question is what is being limited here? The Tail. Yes the tail is limited here, not the Str. now then there are two ways to limit the character concerning the tail witout applying them to STR.

 

1. -1/4 limit on the Extra limbs power defined as .Tail only can use half strengthTail can only use 30 or half strength. points total drops from 205 cost to 204 (Yay your character is cheaper for not being very limited.)

 

2. a five point phisical limit (Inf, Minor) tail only uses half Str.

 

Frankly i would use that limit on a stat only in cases wherein i was building a tail that was significantly stronger/more agile than the rest of the body.

 

You are less limited by the rules and only your own imagination than in 3RD.

 

 

Also Steve Has to watch out for rules lawyering punks who want to munchkin the rules. That is the main reason why we have such harsh and sometimes what appears to be unreasonably inflexible rules. Being really strong means many thnigs.

 

Originally posted by tesuji

 

This is an accepted practice, a defined organic method in HERO, spelled out yet again precisely in the base rules, and yet the obvious flaws in cost it vreates are obvious.

 

It isn't my misunderstanding of the HERO rules, it is an error in the hero rules supported by the designer.

 

I will note that since the time of the original threads and QnA, there has been an addition to the faq that described the limited manipulation as a no point voluntary restriction IF it applies only to

some additional limbs but not to other additional limbs.

 

[/b]

 

Originally posted by tesuji

 

procedure for defining limited manipulation (including weaker strength tails) for extra limbs is precisely and specifically defined on HERO5.112. It calls for a limitation on the strength/dex.

 

[/b]

 

Originally posted by tesuji

 

Perhaps it is your not having the eloquence or comprehensive understanding of how to do things in HERO that is preventing you from seeing its faults or understanding how little it actually does.

 

FWIW... I started GMing hero in ~83 with 3rd edition and have a number of 2nd edition products. I have GMed it more than any other game system using it for supers and fantsy and scifi. i would say conservatively i have run about 12 years of campaigns using hero in that 20 years since i first started. DND is a distant third with about 6, vampire actually being second with around 6. (Most of the time i ran two campaigns as i am now.)

 

When i speak of the faults of HERO, i do not speak from ignorance. This is not to say I am flawless, and i would no doubt expect those who played HERO5 for more than the 8 months i did before abandoning it are more likely able to pinpoint specific areas than I, but i do research my examples to make sure they are rules correct BEFORE using them (unlike apparently some do with their complaints about DND, a=t least round here.)

 

By the way, the "buy a lim" organic system error is one of those 'total subset" cases... where the cheaper set contains everything the more expensive set and more. Those are examples of balance errors from the system that are not subjective but simply objective.

[/b]

 

Originally posted by tesuji

 

 

Regardless, the "value" of something is primarily determined IN PLAY and by the challenges set for it. If i spend 60 points for 70 swimming and we never meet an aquatic adventure or go under water, then it

aint all that wonderful.

 

[/b]

 

Uhmmm, Yeah, riiiight try looking at maps of every major city in the world most have some sort of water way inthem. I can get from Denver to Dallas dangably fast w/ 124" NCM. Crossing the Rockies/most mountain ranges would be tough admittedly, but then it is not the perfect form of movement either (nothing is ).

Swimming gives you access to over 75% of the earth's Surface plus a ton beneath it.

 

Originally posted by tesuji

 

If i spend 5 points on water breathing and we go under water a lot because of the atlantean adventure campaign we are in, then that 5 points may well be wonderful, particularly if the campaign nature only allows scuba tank like items for the others as bulky foci.

 

[/b]

 

Actually your argument right here is proof positive that water breathing is priced right. Many settings (like Hudson city, Gotham, NYC, Metropolis, Houston, anything on the Great Lakes and many others) have major waterways or are right on the edge of an ocean or what not. Classic villian scene: bad guys blow up a dam. Even Supes with his Flight vs you and your waterbreathing and Swimming you will be in much better shape to deal with sub aquatic villians and major plots around water than old Supes. 62"move VS 15" at best for flying underwater IIRC(both placed at 60 points spent) 62" vs 30" on the surface. If the Gm can't/won't let your character shine by having some fun things happen around that you can deal with better than others then that is more the Gm's fault than "the points"? isn't it?

 

Originally posted by tesuji

 

DND does not use a poiint system for most things. It is an effect system using comparitive judgements, not a cost system using "points and formula."

[/b]

 

However the point system ties in all of the HERO mechanics into a simple format. How cumbersom would it be to have 10 different mechanics for building a character and how would you exchange values for them?

the Problem with ANY D&D system is that _all_ of the mechanics are separate, and are _all_ point systems. A spell cannot be bought with hitpoints, a feat does not equate a stat increase many of the levels are "Blanks" to build up to better levels and the thing is you have to follow the same road to get anywhere.

Too much multiclassing is a bad thing.

 

Originally posted by tesuji

 

You guys can keep slamming it for not using points, but that sort misses that that is an understood difference right away and that "the points" hero uses are subjectively determined before the math and subjectively enforced in play after the math. Every time you refute a "cost question" with saying that the Gm can or maybe should adjust the base costs for the campaign specifics, you point to how much of a effect-comparitive-judgement system hero is.

 

[/b]

 

Actually If you really want me to slam AD&D3Rd I will, here goes:

 

Not enough Social systems to handle a real society.

 

the challenge factor (ever heard of Tuckers Kobolds? Direct problem with cf 's).

 

Wealth being tied directly to Class levels but not influencing Monsters

 

NPC only Classes. Don't _EVEN_ BRING THIS ONE UP IT HAS BEEN A SORE POINT SINCE 1ST ED AD&D WITH ME. IF A GM CAN'T CHALLENGE/BEAT A PARTY WITH THE STUFF THE PLAYERS CAN BE/DO THEN HE SHOULD NOT BE RUNNING A CAMPAIGN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Sorry verry old problem.

 

Combat intensive system, especially the rewards system.

 

Tower Shields

 

Index System

 

Attitude written in the book.

 

Points or no points 3RD has problems. They have slowly solved some problems but since what 2-3 years ago they released 3 now they are releasing 3.5 and they now want more money out of me for being stupid and buying their krap in the first place? Uh no.

 

 

Originally posted by tesuji

 

You guys keep referring to the math as looking under the hood so you know whats going on, but in truth the subjective-comparitve-judgement system is the "under the hood" or "behind the curtain" for the math!

 

[/b]

 

And HERO is more open than the D&D system, heckaroonie it wasn't until much later (just pre 3.5 press release ) that I found out that Magic Missle is supposed to be the "best first level spell in the game" period end of sentence. HERO at least suggests you think about what the hell you are doing when you play with the system.

What curtains do i have to look behind to find out that fact in 3RD?

At least with some math rather than a fiat based system I can relativistically change things and have some concept of making them make sense. If I take MB and make it cost 5 points per level I dang well need to make MD _at least_ as common as ED or PD, adding it into Armor and Force Field would also not be a bad idea. even going so far as to add range mods and other quirkyness. Uhm where in 3RD is there a real discussion of adding new stats and creating new powers and what you need to do to concern yourself with game balance?

 

Originally posted by tesuji

 

WOW, twice the price is not important enough to worry with? Does that include 5 for each d6 of eb vs 10 for each d6 of mental blast? The difference between 1 pd and ED and 2 armor is only 1 point. Can i buy armor at the same cost of PD and ED? its not worth quibbling over,

right?

 

[/b]

 

Sure I'd let ya have "Armor" of 1 PD and ED _non resistant_ and you can call it "Armor". _NOW_ that you are arguing about red apples and not quite so red apples here is _exactly_ where your argument breaks down. All of the above examples like EB vs MB, Armor vs PD and ED, you get something extra for those points with Armor you get resistant defenses, those defenses (and many others) suddenly apply with but a single point of resistant defense. a MB will affect many things and has many more advantages that an EB does/will not. Is it worth twice the price? quite possibly. In fact arguably so since _at the least_ MB is an AVLD attack.

Straw man knocked down.

 

Originally posted by tesuji

 

of course, in all these cases that "per unit" cost difference might seem not worth quibbling about when looking at the base cost. It will quickly add up to real points when you start taking more potent abilities, in other words, the BASE COST is worth quibbling about once you start applying that vaunted HERO math.

 

[/b]

 

Aha! Im seeing part of your problem, you are talking about two different things

You are really talking about a Movement based power vs. a Life support. You are simpy taking a comparing of things that in some ways don't really compare. The more movement based powers you have the better clinging gets. Clinging gets enhanced _by_ other things.

WB typically does not get enhanced by other things. Now then in the grand scope of things WB is worth less than SCB? I would think so since there are many things that SCB protects against that WB would not. is SCB =to Clinging in most cases, yes. The ability to survive most environments vs the ability to execute certain difficult movement manuvers is probably approximately the same. is Clinging worth 5 points of flight? quite possibly, in fact probably so. You get certain defenses vs having no need to rely upon surfaces.

 

Now you are going to try to prove me wrong by pointing out exceptions, well there are exceptions to 3RD being right too. Clinging and WB abilities don't compare in 3RD either. There is a reason why there has never been a mass Spider Climb Spell without the Spider Climb spell disadvantages. It is too powerful for the limits of the D&D system, any version. Heck even the name is a misnomer it should be Sticky Climb, not Spider Climb(read the spell). There is a reason why there has not been a mass WB spell or SCB.

 

Wow I can build an argument that you are wrong.

Straw man Knocked down.

 

Originally posted by tesuji

 

Say i want spells that provides water breathing (clinging) to all my allies within a certain radius and i start applying it as using area effect (so i dont have to hit each one one by one) and useable by others (say something like 16 more people maybe) then the vaunted hero math tells me (I will roguh out the combined mods as being a +3 advantage) 20 points for the water breathing and 40 points for the clinging.

 

You just dismissed the relative values, base values, for these two as they did not matter enough for you to quibble over. Low and behold, apply the vaunted hero math to create a power from these unimportant base values and now we have a 20 point difference. Thats enough of a difference to buy +2 combat levels (all combat 16 points) and +2 OCV levels with your main attack.

 

Is that enough for you to quibble over? (hey, 20 points happens to be in the same ballpark as weak tail vs strong tail shown above.)

 

The base power costs in HERO are VITAL to the system. They are not "things not worth quibbling over." They are the foundation upon which the rest is built.

 

Barage in garbage out, as they say.

 

The key thing that HERO players who play the arbitrary card whenever they want is that these values are "arbitrarily" or rather subjectively assigned and should be assigned varying from campaign to campaign based on the challneges expected to be presented. (Then of course comes the in play enforcement.)

 

[/b]

 

Hmm lessee, lets negate the cost differential by upgrading WB to SCB. Now I have a choice between giving the ability to my friends the abilty to through superior tactics use terrain and avoid traps and thereby negate the advantages of or create a disadvantage for others, vs the ability to ignore poison gas attacks, being strangled/suffocated etc. WB would do half that, and would allow a retreat into water, Hmmm seems pretty fair to me. Yep your argument is sure solid. Clinging _IS_ twice as effective as WB, why thank you for proving our system with all of your hard work.

 

Originally posted by tesuji

 

WOW, now thats a wonderfully unsupported parting shot.

 

Well done. it speaks volumes about your position.

 

[/b]

 

Why thank you !!!

 

I try

 

BTW Waterdeep is a major City in Forgotten Realms Setting, you might have heard of it. One of the big three settings being pushed upon hapless players and Gm's by D&D?

 

Last shots: D&D is an absolute system.

Hero is a non-abasolute system.

 

Learn the difference, Hero aint for everyone, neither is D&D. Stop trying to push your Crack at me and ill try to do the same.

 

Inspired by the Article: Designer Desmenes by Mark A. Hart appearing in Dragon magazine #259 this post/thread seeks just what sort of things we would do in order to take the Hero System and Modify it to build not bases(too small) or planets (might be too large), but nations with advantages and disadvantages, something along the lines of "The Ultimate Nation" (TUN?).

 

If you dont have the article the posts won't do you much good ( or more appropriately shouldn't) for building kingdoms with the Skills and Powers Book. That was the purpose of the article mentioned above. this has a different concept of taking the HERO system and making it work for Nations.

 

Okies so here goes:

Determining National Values:

though every nation/kingdom is very different. The Hero System assumes that each character begins with "x" amount of base points depending upon which level of beggining power level the Gm wants.

SO the first step would be to choose how powerful at the three choice points the Gm wants the nations to be.

 

Just like with Hero's a high base point (say 75 or more) means that each individual nation can be relatively powerful without taking disadvantages. a high capacity for disadvantages (like 50 points per category or 75 or more points availible in disadvantages)

 

 

One of the things I'm considering doing is because I'm not intending these to be bought by a person. I might in effect megascale the countries size and making the Megascaling free for the smallest size of country.

After all to be a country you at a minimum have to be what a City (Vatican City, though no wuss is the smallest Country I can think of) ? Well, landed at least, there are other possibilites in Sci fi.

 

To link up the countries with Character Types Guidelines I'll think ill use the Standard, Skilled and Competant normals with Standard hero Classification being at the upper range. This will give people the opportunity to work with something from Satellite countries and 3rd (even fourth) world countries to an impressive 1st world nation.

 

At this point going through FRED Im going to ignore Everyman Skills for an actual nation, these might be appropriate for each World Subset, but at this point im going to look father before I decide on default.

 

Skills: now then Skills have interesting intersections looking at bases , buying a nationwide skill to in essence get a complimentary roll to everyone in the nations borders could have an interesting correlation.

Another would be this is where Everyman Skills come from.

 

The real question is Is The Nation a really big base(Lataveria, Wakandia, malachites country, Citystates, Empires, Sci Fi Corporations like Ares, ), or is the Nation in question an independant entity (USA, PGC[Pan Galactic Corporation], Rome, T$R legal staff etc...)

part of the answer is whether or not the Country will be stable in mostly the same condition as it was left after the current ruler leaves.

 

As a subset of Skills, Skill enhancers could be argued for as well, if the nations policies encourage a strong pursuit of interest (Such as Science and Japan, Linguistics in Europe, Traveller in a country that encourages globetrotting and international interests.

 

Perks : this is where i have really formed ideas:

 

Access repersents a governments ability to have info-sharing (typically through spy techniques) it can repersent a level of data gathering on the allies of the nation in question as well as those considered enemies,

 

Anonyminity: though not typically found in modern real world campaigns (after all how easy is it to hide from the current level of spy networks?) this might be applicable to many Sci-Fi, and possibly some fantasy nations. For example a mysterious fantasy nation suddenly appears out of the mists of time, Latervia being overlooked by the nearby Soviet Union via super sorcery and other cases, or France being under appreciated as the evil global power it is.

 

Contacts: Unlike Access this perk has to deal with either friendly data sharing or under the table informal deals. Computer "file sharing", whether willed or no is probably better handled through Computer link.

 

On the converse side since often a nation develops such communication at multible levels when a form of contact does form then the nation does not need to buy the "upgrade" for Organization Contacts since this is an Organization to Organization contact. The obvious exception is Favor. typiaclly finding the contact is not difficult either, but the roll should be used for getting the contact to do what you want them to do.

 

Followers though on some scales this could be used to repersent millitaries, gov't officals and other such things probably it is best not simulate the buying of millitaries by using followers as is. In almost any era a millitary consists of 100's of men and most likely 1,000's to 100,000 or more, a significant expenditure if the standard follower rules were used!!!!

Perhaps the best way would be to establish a base size for the minimum level of competant fielding of troops (based upon numbers)

after building the desired level of competancy (via character points/5 in the standard manner) then essentially "megascaling" to repersent sufficient troop levels. if a Gm uses the FH Mass Combat rules to determine what the typical size of units that are to be fielded in the reigions then use that as the base size (or perhaps a size down or some fraction therof) The Gm may choose to not allow the typical doubling for 5 ponts either as this may repersent a potentially unbalancing way for a country to quickly overrun it's neighbors and then use the resources it just accquired to counteract its disadvantages.

 

Fringe benefits don't really seem to apply at this level though possibly a country could be particularly resourceful at getting treaties signed and thus accquire the equivalent to the Right to Marry something along the lines of Prefered Treaty Signator. Historical similarities would be the role of Catherine the Great in the relationship of Europe in her time.

 

Money certainly does not work like listed in the main book, if so then most countries would have to pay 10 to 15 points right off!

 

Rather the better solution is viewing money as a relatavistic value then most countries would have Money as a 0 point value for the nation, they are neither in debt nor are they flush with value either. There are several ecnomic values that the money advantage or disadvantage can repersent. It could repersent the purchasing power of its people, the actual international investments of the Government or even the result of whether or not a nation sucessfully balances its budget. Though typically this would for simplicity's sake repersent the end economic results of the nations interests.

 

Reputations: For good or evil most nations have one form or another of reputation. Like many other advantages and disadvantages in this area the scale has to change with the scale of the area. also some of this may be redundant with the redefinition of the character scale.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'll add more later.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

PS I would suggest Steve make a book Called Questions, Riddles and Secrets for publication as part of the Hero System in the fantasy section then we could have QRS to go right before TUV

Doesnt Jackie Chan have enough things to do in a round without adding on a triggered attack?

 

 

Of course in most of his movies he does have that ability anyways probably with a Side effects"looks Surprised"

i think there are a few issues here that are confused by the way people allow characters to be built.

 

One way is: Here are your 7 default races if you want something different tell me the race name/concept and ill build the race for you.

or see if it really is something different.

 

The other way is :here you go build whatever race/class combo you want as long as it fits within medival fantasy campaign concept.

 

Now then I use the fist method, this ties in with my philosophy on how I use NCM. Which is I built these to repersent the standard for the race. Therefor is there any reason why not I should have the races all play by the same limits when they are all different?

 

There are no 30 minimum str Ogres, there are no 300 int brainiacs. All of the races can at max have 3 points of a stat over a human before they pay for NCM unless it is a Magical Spell/Supernatural Ability. If i did have one of those there would be pretty bad problems involved for the character

 

One of the reasons why i keep NCM is because it changes the way people think. People dont think "there is nothing stopping me from having 60 Str" when you have NCM or even "mostly NCM" people think differently.

 

now then I read the FH PDF document so I am going to explain a problem I realized with reading through Steve's work.

 

I looked at steves stuff and was struck by some the suggested stat increases for the fighter classes. having an 18 Str can be seen as deficient or average for the proposals (depending upon whether or not you were basing it upon 8 Str= normal human).

 

Then I thought about _why_ they are that way

 

IMNSHO Weapon Str min's are too high.

 

yes they are WRONG.

 

Look, I have a copy of Imperial Austia presented by the Museum of Fine Arts Houston. Armies had tons of weapons that we place at 18 Str.

These armies were expected to use thier weapons effectively.

Now then just how uncommmon _is_ an 18 str when 3000 of your buds had it as they trained alongside you? Heck I might be for something as radical as halving the Str Mins. After all you are going to still have lots of armor to slow you down and other sorts of problems. Perhaps this will keep the Str's down _because_ you don't need an 18+ Str to weild all of the common weapons.

Originally posted by tesuji

 

 

Circumstantial elements can alter the relative balance between different strength characters. That is not a problem but simply an aspect of having more than one metric for gauging "combat strength" reflected in the system. [/b]

Nice of you to make my points for me!

Wealth is a false assumption in D&D.

Indeed most of the magical Items pricings are very very screwed up. and most people _wont_ notice this unless a character painfully points this out. It caused a character death in a campaign I was in.

 

Originally posted by tesuji

 

 

When we are in the middle of comparing examples to try to deal with a complaint about how DND does not make a 1st level fighter sufficiently more advanced in combat than an 8th level fighter, we also at the same time have to deal with the claim that it makes them too much combat skill differentiated as a matter of course?

A class is not a lifelong pursuit. It is periods of learning. Thats why multiclassing is so easy in 3e. There are very few prohibitions, and those are setting specific, and the penalties for unfavored multiclassing are simple XP penalties, not forbiddances, and many of those are either officially removed (they do not apply for PRCs and some standard classes depending on setting and race) or make great campaign specific setting rules. I use a variant of the favored class system in my games because i was not wanting the greyhawk model.

 

[/b]

 

Nooooooo that would be Tesuji not reading the post. the point is that 1. there are few real social classes in AD&D, 2. there is no real suggestion in any of the main books that a character take classes relative to what they have been doing.

 

Sure a smart Gm can suggest that but in the end it just 1. weakens a character 2. violates character concept 3. grants exteraneous abilities.

 

Sure you could essentially rewrite every character for each player but then why not play HERO?

 

 

Originally posted by tesuji

 

 

 

Both systems are arbitrary... one just tries to convince you that more math makes it better.

 

When hero tells me that a guy with a strength 60 and a strength 30 tail is going to be MORE EXPENSIVE than the same guy with a strength 60 tail, then i do not walk away thinking that math and "some say less arbitrary" system is telling me much of anything at all. When the system designer tells me the preferred way to gain 1-6 points of HEAVILY limited dex is to pay 33% MORE than i would if i just bought 6 regular dex, then i don't get this "less arbitrary" bit at all. What i get is, for all this math, its subjective values fed into an overly complex and inaccurate grading system and... the most important part... even with all the math, if i assume the math is RIGHT... the values it produces wont be "right" unless i by decisions in game design MAKE THEM RIGHT.

 

I can do better than that using my own experience and judgement and since the final proof comes out based on what I decide to throw at them, all the mounds of math did for me is to take up valuable time. [/b]

 

 

1. Uhh yeah why dont you show me those specific examples: it could be a case of you not having the eloquence or comprehensive understanding of how to do things in HERO. that could be your fault

frankly a guy with 60 Str and a 30 Str tail could be a Phis lim disadvantage, a disad on his Extra limbs or (real shocker) worth no disad at all if it does not obey the cardinal rule of if a disad is not really a disad then it is worth no points at all. Usually found in BIG BOLD LETTERS in the disadvantages section.

 

2. Hero is based upon if you spend 15 points for something it is decent, 30 points and it is pretty good and 60 points and it is wonderful. With negating a disadvantage certain system realism disads being in the 10 or less area.

3. Do you have a similar judgement system for AD&D presented in the big three?

I think not.

 

Im not going to quibble over 5 vs 10 for WB and Clinging. WB just enables you to breathe a different medium, Clinging lets you move in verry difficult ways. WB may save your arse but usually it is a no big deal. Clinging can make certain combats _very difficult_ (sword weilding orcs could have a problem reaching your character on a cavern ceiling 30' above their heads)

 

HERO is more about buying strengths and playing to them quite different than AD&D. Where most of the time it is about rolling well

Tesujii One problem with your Ftr 8 Vs ftr 1 there are several ways that that can be screwed with.

 

One both fighters can lose or *gasp* not be using their equipment.

 

a bar brawl in a place that forbids weapons and armor. just after having been shipwrecked or at certain points in the very famous modules A1-4 (against the slaver lords)

Or even at any point after having been captutred, stripped, and dumped in a "deathtrap".

 

Not that uncommon in many games.

 

and several feats are neutralised by not having weapons or only one opponent(cleave and great cleave, the martial weapon feats or whatever they are called,the weapon finess feat)

 

 

However part of the Problem with D&D is that it _assumes_ a "more experienced fighter" is better at combat. Hero assumes a more experienced fighter will be able to do more. not just combat.

 

If I as a fighter gain a level or two only through social interaction (sorry for the shockin supposition) what exactly have I _really done_ that has advanced me as a fighter? Trained on the side? Well why did I not bother with leveling and just train on the side?

 

The Assumption is that you will go out and kick arse to get xp to level.

 

there is no other assumption for the classes.

 

if you run a high diplomacy/social interaction game you are advancing in areas that are not applicable to combat and combat combat combat games you spend points on skills eventually that do not apply to those things you are learning.

 

Sorry I prefer a game wherin I can see the metasystem as opposed to one where people arbitrairily decide that Magic Missle is the best first level spell in the game, and contrive to hide the metasystem from the average gamer.

Actually tis post is mostly for Tesuji.

 

Since you brought up some apples and oranges with D&D and HERO I just would like you to do me a favor with some of your apples.

 

Find out how much Waterbreathing and Underwater movement (possibly underwater combat also) (those two to three _only_ separated from everything else) are worth to a beggining character in D&D3RD Waterdeep character. Perferably in the value of stats/beggining skills packages. Oh yeah and keep the values separate. This would be nice for a character i have in mind.

 

Meanwhile in Hero if a Gm so chooses WB can be free in his campaign, or the value can be increased/decreased. Why? because if it makes sense you can _change_ it and that is a prime rule of the toolkit. Just like if a Gm Chose to everyone could have innate WB in any campaign irregardles of what system you build it on. If you think for your campaign that the movement powers are unbalanced then by all means house-rule or campaign-rule them. Steve has not enlisted the Gaming Police to track down rules violators so they may be shot at dawn.

 

Heck most D&D3RDGM's would shoot on sight a WB character unless he had some significant problems.

 

Heck I personally use a houserule version of NCM. I Don't really care what Steve Says on the subject ill take what I want and change some I don' t like and toss the rest.

hmm persoanlly I would suggest doing this with the "damaged goods" DOJ offers elsewhere on this site.

 

Not quite so blasphemous then I would say!

Naaah he's just being prejudiced from his P.O.V.

Actually Playtesting FH has given me a few ideas,

Really there are a few broken points that surprising enough I think have to do with views of what is effective and Weapons Str Min.

 

I cannot discuss it here until after publication but I think Steve managed to open my eyes to the way things should be changed (and not the way he intended/wrote!!!!!)

 

However I still have a major problem with NCM and (for example) negative running. Negative running (-1" typically for Dwarves) I see as a problem. Okies I bought -1"running, now then If I want a "speedier" Dwarf and buy +1" running I either could get a better bennie out of being a human(and building a character on 150 points rather than 148 with thi s method which is all i'm really doing) spending no points and Telling the Gm I am buying it off as a background thing (which now means I can run as fast as any human), or I have a disadvantage that is not worth any points, (hmmm seems I see that in big black bold letters as something you cannot have every time i read the Disadvantages section of 4th or 5th editions......)

 

 

pretty much what it means is that you have two types of Dwarfs: 5" movers and Humans-who-look-like-Dwarfs.

Originally posted by Monolith

I will get back on that manuscript right after the Pamela Anderson virus is eradicated though.

 

 

Annnnnnd just exactly _how_ are you posting that with the Pamela Anderson Virus still on your computer?????????????

no it's faster when one brain does both(the thinking and typing)

 

Best preventative mesure for CTS?

 

Take courses in massage therapy.

 

Massage Therapists discovered CTS loooong before any dull Sec. started noticing.

 

Essentially you more or less do finger stretches before beggining typing for the day, those exercises also stretch the CT's and gets them warmed up and ready for a 13k typing day. or dealing with 8 200+# rich guys for an hour of massages each.

Actually _everyone_ suffers the same level limits.

 

level 20

 

 

And one Xp table to rule them all....

 

Gee I havent seen _that_ since the 80's!

Ehhh I think Steve's Perspective is Skewed.

Dont Feel bad, if the FH mauscript sucks ill be disappointed I spent 30.00 on getting a preview look at it.

 

 

 

Speaking of manuscripts....

Ermmm where does one find the rules for Playtest manuscripts?

(what can and cannot be done as well as sending in corrections and other stuff[found what i believe is the first Grammatical error]?)

 

Though it is easier to ask for forgiveness than permission it is nobler to ask for permission.

Originally posted by Steve Long

. Since the printer tells us it can make usable, durable perfect-bound books of over 1,000 pages,

 

And you believed HIM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

yes im kidding I work with/next to a bindery and believe you me they can do wonders....

Where do I sign up to get ready to playtest?

"If an ogre wants a 40 STR, he needs to pay for it. Not all racial packages are equal. If a player wants to play a racially stronger species, he will pay for it."-Heroman

 

I agree

 

However most of the discussion seems to be not whether or not someone _pays_ for the abilities but how and how much.

 

If a "mage" can get away with 200 Str for 200 points then certailny others should be able to get away with that also.

If _no one can _ which seems to be your point then by all means go ahead.

 

I am however merely pointing out that if there are certain cases then the character should not be penalsied for having a good character concept with a good Gm approved race over a Human with a "book O' spells", otherwise you end up with the party of humans with book O' spells and no one want's to play other races.

 

besides I built a NCM, FH, mid level magic character wit 23 str, she paid 16 points for that.

I did not build her with the "its a power, therfore NCM does not apply" even though there were and _Are_ ways to do so. Heck I just rebuilt her to cover a major campaign influence and even though I had the opportunity to add +3 STR to my powers list and get back 3 cp's I chose not to.

 

She is the strongest humanoid in the campaign with nautural strength. there are others (at least two in the party) who have frameworks that allow greater strengths due to their magics. But without magic she is _Rare_ even with magics she is still rare. There is nothing (no dispells or disads) on her Strengths that limit what she can do and others cannot face. (one has the "only when in contact with the earth" the other needs to mod his VPP).

 

in the end though she is not really balanced with the others, she really would have been better off with some magic and a punier Str.

Actually I see 3.5 as a _huge_ flop.

 

especially with the history behind T$R.

 

Most of the Mods are puny (woot woot now we have TWO count them TWO ways to build a ranger TWC OR Archer!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! did i say Woot Woot? dont worry, ILL DO IT AGAIN ANYWAYS!!!! Woot Woot!)

 

90% of the stuff is in 3rd allready so why even bother? it is almost as ridiculous as the SR books (version 1.9 for 3rd edition Rulebook.)

 

just sell the flexibility and people will get the idea.

 

after all if you are going to spend the time to make mods for 3(.5)rd edition might as well build a campaign for the Hero System.

Actually my point is just what you guys in the last two points have been arguing _FOR_.

 

NCM works fine for an all human campaign.

It breaks down the further you get from "one race to rule them all and in the darkness bind them".

 

It gets tossed right out of the window when you allow Characteristicas as Powers from Spells.

 

The races i do Certainly keep the flavor and restrictions of NCM well within the realm of possibility.

 

im certainly not advocating the wholesale removal from the game, What "I" am advocating is Either for Steve to Solve the NCM vs. Multible Races OR flipping allow our mods.

 

Sorry, but building races with +10 STR(non-powered), just makes the cap all the more painfully obvious.

 

The point of Greatest Agrravation with Steve is the simple fact that "he" has decided (incorrectly IMNSHO) the NCM is a Genre thing.

 

It isn't, it's a GM thing.

 

I don't suddenly see a great increase in non/demi-human characters in my campaign because I build them, not the players. Just like in the real world you did not "design yourself" there are some things that you are just born with and have to deal with.

 

I certainly Agree NCM is useful, I just want to be able to adjust it. However appearently Steve feels that it is too too for us poor incapable of balancing Gm's, much less players.

 

I dont want to have to flipping have to have each races NCM in a chart, I just want certain factors to be listed and be done with it.

 

PhilFleischmann- "I go back to the central idea of the system: You Get What You Pay For, and You Pay For What You Get. "

And IF a GM so chooses he can give you a 10,000,000,000,000 point spaceship, make the Everyman skills build up onable, by the rules of the game, and NO he cannot modify NCM without houseruling it.

 

THE GM can give you whatever he want's _except_ modify NCM.

 

Sorry, your argument is kinda baseless for that reason.

 

And keep in mind guys this is a GM freaking arguing this, not a player.

 

Steve has put the artifical limits making it an on/off switch, Im merely arguing for moderation on the offical stance.

 

the simple problem is if you buy +10 Str Orcish Muscles Racial ability you smack right up against the limit, now it costs you twice as much to raise it, few are going to buy an Orc unless they want the +10 STR and few are going to increase their Str beyond the racial min/max.

 

If you buy +10 STR Orcish Muscles Racial Power now Orcs will have Str between 20-30 on average with few others outside of that range.

 

if you buy +10 Str Spell of Orcish Muscles, IIF Hair, Incantations you only spend 7 points to get 10 points of Str _AND_ it leaves your NCm just as intact as the second way.

 

Besides What the H e Double-hockey- sticks happens when you have a 60+ equivalent ORC with the Age Disadvantage?!?!?!!?!?!?!!?!

in case one the Orc just paid to double his Str with doulbe the points but the other two cases it does not matter.

 

Sorry, but NCM Should be adjustable so it can aplly to all the races appropriately at Gm's discretion. after all that is what the rest of the book is all about.

And what are they going to do if the fish is poisonous?

The Rook: Switch over my VPP to an AP Mental transform and save his mind(removing all those nasty Psy lims and replacing them with socially beneficial Psy lims) then switch it over to cure Spiritual disads, then switch it over to Phisical transform to make him a good guy once and for all.

 

If he doesnt die by then. If he does, then resurrect him.

 

Most of the others persoanlly dont give a flying flip and wouldn't know him as anything other than a knockoff Dr Doom.

Hmm maybe the problem is that these are ships designed to invade the northern hemisphere and because the rotation is wrong (ie the water flows the" wrong way" ) the Ship crashed?

 

explains all the other ships crashing in the northern hemisphere, there were to invade the south!