Erkenfresh

Re: Self Defeating Powers
 

 
Just use "No Figured Characteristics, -1/2". Otherwise, it's all good.
 
Pair of Nikes: 6" Flying (Only in contact with a horizontal surface, must make full contact with the surface)
 
Self-Induced Headache: 20" Leaping (Vertical movement only, only works in low-ceiling hallways)

Re: Self Defeating Powers
 
Motionless Running: +6" Running (-1, Only when standing still)

Re: Magic system opinions
 
With regards to spell usage, and keeping it in check, I tend to favor increased endurance cost. Now I know charges covers the feel of the D20 magic systems a bit more accurrately, but then we run into these issues we have here.
 
I like to set an end reserve, and have the usual recovery limitations (like sleep time or prayer) and then i calculate how many spells can be cast out fo this reserve. Basically, I limit the number of spells by ensuring the end reserve can only accomadate a specific number of castings in a given day.
 
This also helps simulate spell levels also. I try to make minor spells cost roughly 3 end or so... and each jump form there increases this by 2 or 3 points. The most powerful spells should cost around 20 End to use. When your reserve is at 100, thats 5 castings of your biggest, or multiple castings of smaller spells.
 
In one game I had a character with 5 distinct levels of spells... End cost on each were 5, 10, 15, 20 and 25. He had a 100 pt reserve when the game began, and got it up to 150 by campaign end. I limited how quickly he could build this so it was a gradual climb.
 
For recovery, it had a 5 Rec, with the limitation you had to be fully asleep for 2 hours before it woudl kick in. Normally 3 hours of sleep got him back to full, but anything less than 2 would not let it kick in fully.
 
So, in summary, I like using End... and especially increased End where warranted, as my limitation tool rather than charges. Charges often end up way mroe advantageous in the long run. Plus having the End reserve gives another way to influence the magic in your world by lettign ley lines or artifacts influece his reserve... or even reduce the casting cost of certain spells.
 
Like taking a Necromancer talent, and now all Necromancy spells cost 1 end less per level, making the new costs 4, 8, 12, 16 and 20. This alone really lets the primary focus on a school of magic have a major influence on how the character works.

Re: Magic system opinions
 
That is the major drawback of a multipower magic system...new spells are cheap and don't need much in the way of limitations. It's fine if you want powerful mages, but it's not for every system.
 
Have you tried ditching the multipower and seeing what a few sample characters would look like without it? They may end up being too weak, but it's worth a look.

Re: Magic system opinions
 
Well, I did a run-through the other night with both a Priest (VPP modified from Killer Shrike's version slightly, but at the end of the day, still a VPP) and a Sorceror (a stack of Multipowers with charges on the multipower). My original build (somewhere in that thread) is very similar to yours - they buy spells, they have an END reserve. Foom, done. However, the major trick (and part of the 'work' that comes from playing HERO) is maintaining the balance across the map.
 
I know now that in HERO, a 250 pt. HEROIC build character, while powerful, can still get creamed by a pure combat build that doesn't have to worry about it's chewy roleplay capabilities, and could reasonably be built on 50 (or 100) points less. That's just how it goes.
 
Steve had posted about a Talent based system which is outlined somewhat better in Fantasy Hero in Chapter 4; "The Gift" I believe its called, which has PCs pay for the ability to draw on certain elements of magic; you could easily blendo the two concepts - KS's MP or VPP with forcing the PC to buy access to various "schools" - and that could get you where you're going. If you do a Multipower, yes, the spells are remarkably cheap, but it's not a good way to curtail their overall power level.
 
One of my PCs put together a Sorceror; gave him 3 circles of magic (15, 30 & 45 point multipowers; each Multipower is designed to have one 'group' of spells in it, obviously) and he fired off a 2d6 RKA w/AP & Autofire against a mook and tattooed him against a back wall. Hardly a game breaking spell, but it was a great example of what basic magic can do in a HERO campaign.
 
If you're concerned about Limitation types, than the normal VPP structure might be a better fit (forcing people to take their RP levels into account when structuring their abilities). In an MP format, you're right - the stuff is cheap and the variations only apply for flavor purposes. You might, though, also put in "Must have -1 (or more) in limitations (-1/2)" which would force your PCs to think before they build. If you want more (Gestures, Incants and Foci alone make up a good chunk of change) then by all means, do more. Multipowers aren't generally the best way towards thematics, though.
 
Using the Tiered system, though, as Killer Shrike built, it's extremlely useful and replicates the 'feel' of d20 magic very well.
 
Hope that gets you started, and if you need more, let us know.

Re: Magic system opinions
 
This is very similar to the Metier Magic System on my web site:
 
http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/HighFantasyHERO/MagicSystems/Metier.shtml
 
I addressed the issue regarding the pointlessness of most Lims in a Multipower Magic System by making the definition of Limitations on the MP Pool itself an intrical part of the Magic System's design and paired them directly to Advantages.
 
The example styles are based around concepts, but they could just as easily be based around more defined schools. The mechanic is independent of the specific application. It also allows players to invent their own styles, which is always fun.
 
 
Also, as an aside, the limiting of the REC on a END Reserve is rarely worth the bother. The Extra Time lim on such a small number of points has very little effect in the actual cost, and all limiting it does is encourage players to find ways to work around it in clever / degenerate ways.
 
There are several better approaches:
 
a) Don't allow REC at all, or restrict REC to a bare minimum, and require some other means of restoring the END Reserve. The END Reserve I used in my Thanomancy Magic System is an example of this in action --
 
http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/HighFantasyHERO/MagicSystems/adeptologyThanomancy.shtml
 
-- their END Reserve REC is capped at their character points divided by 150, rounded in their favor. So a 125 pt character can have 1 REC, while a 425 pt character can have 3 REC. Each Thanomancer must also have a "Drain Life" ability that is Transfer based defined as BODY to END Reserve REC. The actual design of the Drain Life power is left to the player, such things as number of dice, fade rate, ease of use and what not vary from Thanomancer to Thanomancer.
 
That basic idea is very morphable to suit a lot of different variations.
 
Rather than restricting REC, restrict the size of the Reserve instead. You could do something like limit the size of the Reserve based on character points, skill level, a custom talent, some combination of Characteristics, or some combination thereof.
 
In other words, you could state a guideline that the Reserve cannot exceed the characters Total Points / 5 rounded to the nearest 10's; in which case a 150 pt character could have 30 END and a 175 pt character could have 40 END.
 
Or you could state that no more points than the character's (INT + EGO + PRE) / 10 can be spent raising the Reserve; Thus a character w/ 20 INT, 15 EGO, 10 PRE could spend 45/10 = 4 pts on their Reserve -- for 40 END.
 
Or if a single Skill Roll of some sort applies to the Magic System you could state that no more than the (Skill Roll - 10) points can be spent on the Reserve. So a Skill Roll of 15- would allow up to 50 Reserve. Alternately (Skill Roll - 7) could be used to allow dabblers to have up to 10 Reserve (the 15- guy would have a limit of 80 END in that case)
 
And so on.
 
If you limit the END Reserve instead of the REC, you are basically saying that in any given encounter the caster will start with some juice, which is a good thing since it allows them to participate instead of the down side of an expended method where if they blow thru their Magic in an encounter they are screwed for the whole day. However, in a given encounter they must husband their resources -- depending on how much END their Spells average they will have to exercise discretionary judgement.
 
 
c) Bring Long Term Endurance into the picture in some fashion, whereby even though the character pays for the END for Spells from their END Reserve, the LTE rules are still applied.
 
You could just use the normal method of accruing LTE, just including END spent from the Reserve into the total END spent.
 
You could require the use of the "Fatigue" Limitation I discuss in this document:
 
http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/HighFantasyHERO/GeneralSpellRestrictions.shtml#FATIGUE
 
You could keep it simple and just state a ground rule that every casting of a Spell accrues 1 LTE.
 
What linking it to LTE loss does in gameplay is allow a character to cast pretty freely, but become increasingly fatigued. Using the by the book LTE, constant spells tire a caster very quickly. By the two variants I mentioned volume matters but duration doesnt.
 
 
Any of those 3 options work better than limiting the Recovery of the END Reserve, IMO.

Re: Magic system opinions
 

I actually prefer the (optional; some spellcasters may get physically tired by spellcasting) use of a second End stat (call it, "Mana," or whatever) to an End Reserve, and putting a Limitation on most spells that make them take Long Term End (even if I don't normally track LTE in the game). I make this an additional -2 Limitation on most Powers, but only a -1 on Constant Powers that Cost End Only to Activate. This also helps drive down the cost of spells or VPPs so you don't have to do the usual 1/3 cost break for spellcasters or anything. It also means you can have some spells that don't cost LTE, so they can be less (magically) exhausting.