Oruncrest

Re: Stop Complaining About Zatanna !

Someone's been catching up on his newsgroups, I see.

Law of Inherent Combustibility

Heck' date=' if people have seen a movie or TV show or two, they have the perception that hitting ANYTHING will make it explode.[/quote']

From the Laws of Japanese Animation:

 

#11 - Law of Inherent Combustibility

Everything explodes. Everything.

 

First Corollary -

Anything that explodes bulges first.

 

Second Corollary -

Large cities are the most explosive substances

known to human science. Tokyo in particular

seems to be the most unstable of these cities,

sometimes referred to as "The Matchstick City".

Re: Wait - you punch WHAT?!? (or what would the damage from an atomic bomb be?)

 

Repeat after me everyone: "In a supers game, nukes are not unstoppable magic death artifacts."

 

( actually, they aren't in the real world either. . . )

 

...And I {might disagree}, too, in part because I've only seen one other use of a nuke-like weapon in comics (against Supes in the DKR sequel, and Supes survived because, well, he's frakin' Superman, though IIRC it did put a serious hurt on him)...

IIRC that was a 'special' nuke, powerful enough to wipe out electronics halfway around the planet, so it was likely to hurt a little more than the 40 megaton Nuke Supes took in SUPERMAN v2 #9 (Sept. 1987).

Not that Supes was a slouch back in the '40s, either. During one battle with Lex Luthor tries to get rid ofe the Man of Steel with an 'atomic bomb'. Needless to say, he failed.

... and in part possibly because I'm not exactly understanding what you're saying' date=' and even in part because I don't know as much about nukes and other WMDs as I might like to think. Based on what I do know (of both nukes and the HERO System game), the stats for a nuke explosion in the [i']Equipment Guide[/i] seemed perfectly fine.

I mean, for starters, how many supers comics (or other fiction/genre) characters have survived a hit from a nuke, even if just barely?

What percentage of real world people who were caught in a nuke blast survived (even if just barely)?

What do you think the stats for a nuke should be, and why?

I've always fond of the stats Steve Long wrote up in the HERO Almanac II; they cover all the effects of a nuke instead of just saying 'The PC takes 20d6 KA accumulated damage from all the effects.' (Yes, I know about the desire to KISS, but it's not unheard of for a player character to be immune to one effect (say the fireball) but would be ripped to shreds by the pressure wave. How do you represent that with a single dice roll?). My only bone was that I felt the stats were a little too high. I mean the 3 major effects (Fireball, Shockwave, & Pressure Wave) were each 20d6. To be fair, Steve said he erred on the side of Overkill, but Daaayyynnnggg...

So I tweaked and modified his writeup and when HERO went to 5th ed, I tweaked it again and when the subject of nukes reared it's head in 2004, I posted it.

Since then, I've realized that I've underestimated the deadliness of this monster. My test victim in the prior post was the Abhrams Tank from FRED (16 /20 DEF, 19 BODY) and it's crew (0 rDEF, 10 BODY). I believed that the crew could benefit somewhat from the 20 DEF & 19 BODY of the tank, but I forgot that the Indirect advantage would enable the heat & fire to ignore not only the higher DEF, but once it breached that DEF, the BODY as well (I.e. the crew took full damage, not blunted by the tank's DEF or BODY). The crew was reduced to free-floating particles (-36 BODY) on the first segment of the explosion. The tank itself followed (losing 25 BODY in the first segment, and another 144 in the next, reducing it to -150 BODY) the next segment. With this bomb, if your PC doesn't have a rDEF of 40+, you might as well start making up a new character.

Oh, and it you're wondering if the Abhrams from The Ultimate Vehicle would've fared any better, I have to say yes - it was only reduced to -144 BODY...

Re: Knockback "realistic"?

And neither of their attacks were usually missing either.

 

It could be argued that since both knew how hard the other was hitting they were both Bracing for Knockback!

Don't forget, the fight started in an underwater base. I don't think either combatant (or any of the spectators, for that matter) would've been keen on seeing oodles of knockback.

Also, I remember an Early '80s story where Superman fought a Magneto-wannabe. They were knockiing each other back into other states (territories when they got to Canada) until they got to the North Pole, where the Earths Magnetic field neutralized the Magneto-wannabes Magnetic powers.

Re: Dramatic use of Skills

Part of the issue is: writers and directors have some time to do research and get into the technical aspects of various skills so that they can leverage those details (and the potential for failure-distaster) to amp up the tension and create drama in their story. A role-playing system can't really model what a character has riding on success and failure - thats psychology and that is what creates dramatic tension. It could provide an abstract system of gradient rolls, or multiple rolls for steps of a task (like disarming a security system, or screwing up one roll and then realizing you have ten seconds to do X or the whole job goes to hell), but that in of itself isn't where the tension and drama lies.

 

Drama is about people and personal stakes, not the technical aspects of achieving success and failure. The latter are interesting, and may be a part of romantic action, but they aren't dramatic. Its fun to deal with those details - and they can make an exciting scene in lieu of combat - but its what is riding on success or failure that creates dramatic tension and makes it worth while. Otherwise what you get is: multiple rolls without much drama, which only slows things down and makes for a pretty dull game.

 

That isn't to say technical details aren't good, or that game-systems shouldn't provide an option for dealing with them, but it comes with a price: learning curve. The gamemaster and player actually have to understand (on some level) the technical aspects of the task being performed - and what's can go wrong and how bad various failues are - to make it worthwhile. "You've accidentally triggered a safeguard in the alarm system... you have ten seconds to run a shunt or it goes off!"

 

I don't think role-playing games can create drama - that's something players and gamemasters do - its storytelling not task resolution.

Repped. And consider your last line stolen for my new sig.

Re: Goody Two-Shoes (Marvel)

Ya learn sumthin' new every day! Thanks (and repped).

 

(Actually, not repped. I seem to have been too free with the stuff of late.)

Repped him for you.

Re: Opinions: A 'Hero' Stealing Their Gear.....????

All my point was' date=' is that the origin is included earlly enough in the series that I suspect it was always part of Dan Jurgens' vision of the character.[/quote']

Oh, I'm fully aware that Dan Jurgens meant for that to be Booster's origin from the start, but from the moment he decided on that origin, he felt the need to remind us that Booster really is a nice guy, that he actually cares about people, that he's not a mercenary (Booster Gold #17) or a hero for hire (DC Heroes RPG Background/Roster Book pg. 30). That irritated me. I know Booster's a Good Guy Mr. Jurgens, you don't have to tell me that every freaking story (also, the next time you write a comic book, please remember to show us things that you want us to know, not tell us).

 

Any disappointment can only come from the read making false assumptions about the character as opposed to a change being made by the creators-- which is how I interpreted the original comment.

 

I don't think Clonus was talking about Booster's origin, though. I think he was talking about how Booster was presented to us in Booster Gold #1 - as a High Flyin' Wheelin' Dealin', Movie Starrin', Spandex Wearin' Celebrity. After BG#6, he became an Opportunistic, Money-Grubbin' Swindler who fled to the 20th Century because no one would fall for his lies in the 25th. Obviously, Dan Jurgens felt that many of his readers would have that reaction, otherwise he wouldn't have spent so much time reminding us that 'Booster's a really nice guy - really!' Given that Booster Gold was canceled after another 19 issues should tell you that most of the fans didn't buy it.

 

Keith Giffen didn't buy it either. And Booster's still trying to recover from the damage that Keith did to him in Justice League International/ America, Formerly Known As the Justice League, and I Can't Believe It's Not the Justice League. Booster's Justice League Unlimited story, 'The Greatest Story Never Told' didn't do him any favors either, what with Booster asking J'Onn J'Onzz how much money he made after taxes and telling the scientist that he came to this century to get rich.

 

So yeah, I can understand Clonus' opinion about how that damaged Booster Gold for him, and how he preferred the Booster Gold of Booster Gold #1-5 over the Booster Gold from BG#6 on.

Re: Opinions: A 'Hero' Stealing Their Gear.....????

Huh? That was part of [booster]'s original origin as presented in his first book.

What I suspect Clonus means is that, prior to Booster Gold #6, Booster was seen as a celebrity, basically Sean Penn in spandex. After #6, Booster was constantly fighting off charges (from people who had no idea about his origin, no less) of being a 'mercenary'. When he had to return to the 25th Century for medical treatment and more power rods for his Booster Suit, he was arrested, tried, and nearly executed, and he found out that the Press had hounded his mother into the grave.

So stealing his gear didn't work out so well for him, did it?

Re: Changes, Rulings and Additions to core rules from 3rd to 4th Caris hates

Only an additional -1 OCV for a full move and grab? Are you sure that isn't a Martial Manuever?

Grab By is considered a combination of the standard combat maneuvers Grab (-1 OCV, -2 DCV), and Move By (-2 OCV, -2 DCV), hence the CV modifiers were added together to come up with the CVM for Grab By.

Re: Is this an OIF?

Gambit's a bad example cuz' he's a Marty Stu Clairemont wankfest of a character. But he might be a good example of a bad example. Once you allow a character to go as small in size and mass as a playing card (or a inflight snack peanut) being a viable item for use, how do you ever deny them the use of their powers? Naked in force field room and they can still throw their poo. No focus limitation, or wafer-thin at best, but take or break their hands and they are done.

 

Don't get me wrong. I love the martial arts movies where Jackie Chan turns a marketplace into an arena; I just don't think it's best represented by anything more than Surprise Manuevers and Martial Arts HTH and Ranged.

Personally, I'd use a little known limitation for Gambit's charging abilities (as well as Bullseye's 'If I can toss it at you, you're dead' throwing power): Components (a -¼ limitation), from Adventurer's Club #20, which was used for attacks that required raw material (within reason - you couldn't make an Entangle from a small block of wood) that you didn't expect to ever be used again.

Re: Skills for a Geneticist?

I would suggest the following:

PS: Doctor (since he's going to be playing around with the human body)

PS: Genetiscist (both to create his Symbiote and to make it compatible with the human body)

SC: Superhuman Genetics (if he's creating his symbiote from the ground up, then he'll need this skill at the very least. If the base of the symbiote is an Alien Life Form he discovered, then this skill name should be changed to refect the nature of the ALF)

SC: Secondary Special Effect Genetics (if he's creating his symbiote from the ground up, thenhe'll need a SC: SSEG for each special effect, for instance: if the symbiote provides enhanced STR and Armor due to an insectile chitin, EB & Entange from Bio-Electricity, and Stretching & Swinging due to a prehensile 'muscle' that's housed in the forearm, then your genetecist will need SC: Insect Genetics, SC Bio-Electrical Genetics, and maybe a third SC depending on where he got ther idea fro a prehensile muscle from.

SC: Human Biology (to ensure his symbiote's nervous system is compatible with a human being's. If they're not compatible then each activation of a power should count as a BODY pip towards a cumulative Insanity Transformation)

SC: Symbiote Biology (we don't want the symbiote gaining sentience, do we? )

Paramedic (not necessary, but accidents happen in SCIENCE!)

That's all I couls think of off the top of my head. hope this helps.

Re: Creative or merely munchkin

Hey folks, new idea I had.

 

Later! 15" Teleport, Trigger when character Dodges. [Active Cost 38]

 

I figure if the character were so concerned about the incoming nastiness to Dodge it, he'd teleport away just to be on the safe side.

 

Thoughts? I figure it's a lot less munchkin than the Teleport UAA position shift damage shields out there, but I'm little munchkin.

 

Peace

Where does the character teleport to? Teleport's a movement action, and as such requires a destination that must be chosen. If the teleport's triggered, then the destination must be chosen in advance (in this case, 15" to the left, right, front, or back), in which case, beware of teleporting into solid objects.

Example: Fred Perry's Gold Digger comic had a villain with enchanted armor that would automatically (triggered with an automatic reset) teleport him behind an attacker when directly attacked in melee combat (it wouldn't work against disarms, but worked just fine against strikes). During a fight with Julia Diggers (mother of the stars of the story and Armsmaster of her homeworld, although she was suffering from arthritis at the time), the villain swiftly found himself disarmed, but when Julia went in for the kill, the armor teleported him behind her every time, giving him free shots at Julia's exposed (and very sore) back. Finally, sitting against a stone wall (where she fell) and with the villain closing in (boasting about his enchanted armor), Julia made a weak kick in his direction, and the armor automatically teleported him behind Julia...

... and into the wall.

He was stuck there for quite awhile.

Just a little food for thought.

Re: MPA v. Sweep v. Combo of Two

For one thing, I don't think that stretching allows for the 'unblockable' aspect of indirect (Stretching is treated as partially Indirect, as I recall).

Also, with a MPA, those four strikes strike as one, so if an attack is blocked, all four blades are blocked. so what you have here is 3 × 4*4D6 Killing Attacks. It's still Wicked Nasty, but not quite as nightmarish as (and much easier to block than) 12*4D6 KAs.

On the other hand, a block wouldn't stop the sweep sequence, so even if the first attack was blocked, the second & third attacks can still try to make it through.

Re: MPA v. Sweep v. Combo of Two

Whoof.

There goes my belief that everything I'd written above was actually balanced.

Re: MPA v. Sweep v. Combo of Two

I was looking at Tiger Lilly from VVV. She has purchased two fighting batons, as well as having Rapid Attack and Two Weapon Fighting.

 

Now looking at this combination, I imagine that her options are as follows:

1. Straight up Martial attack

2. Rapid Attack of 2 or more martial attacks (with penalties)

3. Attack with Fighting Baton (martial attack plus HTH damage)

4. MPA of 2 Fighting Batons (each a martial attack plus HTH damage)

5. Rapid Attack of 2 or more strikes with Fighting Batons (each a martial attack plus HTH damage)

6. Rapid Attack of 2 or more sets of MPA of with two fighting batons (each a martial attack plus HTH damage)

 

#6 seems like a particularly nasty tactic (especially if she decides to wear herself out with her hyperaccelerated normal strike for each). For -4 OCV and 1/2 DCV TL could land 6 strikes for 8 End (2 End for Str (only pay str once a phase), 6x1 End for fighting batons). Am I understanding this correctly?

 

Thanks for your help.

I think that you're misconstruing what Rapid Attack and Two-Weapon Fighting do. Rapid Attack isn't a combat maneuver, it's a skill that enables you to do a Sweep as a half-phase action. Two-Weapon Fighting means that the first two attacks of a Sweep maneuver suffer no combat penalties for either using a weapon in your off hand or for the first attack in a Sweep. As for Multiple Power Attacks; as pointed out in this post (send Oddhat some Rep, I've still got to spread some around), so long as Tiger Lily has purchased both powers separately (not having seen her writeup, I'll assume that she purchased one fighting baton with it's full game effects and then purchased a second one for 5 points), she can use them both in a single attack. So her options end up looking like this.

1) Tiger Lily can use one of her batons in a straight up Martial Attack on one opponent with no penalties.

2) Tiger Lily can use both of her batons in Multiple Power Martial Attack on one opponent with no penalties (due to her Two-Handed Fighting Skill).

3) Tiger Lily can use one of her batons in a Sweeping Martial Attack as a half phase action (due to her Rapid Attack Skill) on one opponent with no OCV penalties on the second strike and -2 for each strike thereafter (due to her Two-Handed Fighting Skill). DCV is halved because of the Sweep, though.

4) Tiger Lily can use one of her batons in a Sweeping Martial Attack as a half phase action (due to her Rapid Attack Skill) on multiple opponents with no OCV penalties on the second strike and -2 for each strike thereafter (due to her Two-Handed Fighting Skill). DCV is halved because of the Sweep, though.

5) Tiger Lily can use both of her batons in a Sweeping Multiple Power Martial Attack (both of the batons strike as a sequence and require only one roll to hit with no penalties) as a half phase action (due to her Rapid Attack Skill) on one opponent with no OCV penalties on the second sequence of strikes and -2 for each strike thereafter (due to her Two-Handed Fighting Skill). DCV is halved because of the Sweep, though.

6) Tiger Lily can use both of her batons in a Sweeping Multiple Power Martial Attack (both of the batons strike as a sequence and require only one roll to hit with no penalties) as a half phase action (due to her Rapid Attack Skill) on multiple opponents with no OCV penalties on the second sequence of strikes and -2 for each sequence thereafter (due to her Two-Handed Fighting Skill). DCV is halved because of the Sweep, though.

And yes, #5 seems especially nasty, but don't forget that Tiger Lilys DCV is halved. if her opponent isn't KO'd in that first attack (or if her opponent has an ally nearby that wasn't hit) Lily's gonna be a sitting duck.

Re: Help With Build (1)

...It doesn't help that in HERO Designer' date=' Naked Advantages cost END even if the powers that they apply to don't (in this case, 0 END had to be bought for Armor Piercing, even though the power it was 'linked' to was 0 END)...[/quote']

That's because Naked Advantages cost END to use, regardless of the Power they are applied to. The only exception to this is a Naked Advantage of Reduced END.

 

Hmmm... If I write the 'Naked Advantage as a custom adder, I'll save a point.

 

10 Butterknife Blade: HKA 1 1/2d6 (3d6+1 w/STR) (Armor Peircing against Hit Locations 3-9, 15-18, +6pts.), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (46 Active Points); Independent (-2), OAF (-1), STR Min=12 (-1/2)

Re: Help With Build (1)

I'm sure I may be missing something but so far it seems that separating out the Armor Piercing Advantage with its own Activation Roll Limitation makes the build more expensive than if it had no Activate Roll.

I think I see why: You applied the advantage to the Active Cost (37 pts.) instead of the Base Cost (25 pts.). It doesn't help that in HERO Designer, Naked Advantages cost END even if the powers that they apply to don't (in this case, 0 END had to be bought for Armor Piercing, even though the power it was 'linked' to was 0 END). It should look like this in HD:

8 Butterknife Blade: Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 1 1/2d6, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (37 Active Points); Independent (-2), OAF (-1), STR Minimum 12 (-1/2) - END=0

3 Sometimes It Makes Armor Seem Like Butter!: Armor Piercing (+1/2) for up to 25 Active Points of Butterknife Blade, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (18 Active Points); Independent (-2), Activation Roll 11- (-1), OAF (-1), Linked (Butterknife Blade; -1/2), STR Minimum 12 (-1/2) - END=0

Re: New Advangage: Seeking

Actually' date=' you can't perform Move-thrus with a Force Wall. It's explicitly verbotten in the rule book under Force Walls.[/quote']

 

Ah. I see. Is that why you used a Force Wall instead of another defense with a -½ limitation: Not vs damage from own Move-Thrus?

 

Hmm...insulting a moderator AND the owner of the boards in one sentence. Smart.

 

No offense was intended, Killer Shrike.

Re: New Advangage: Seeking

So... the same thing you need to do to avoid any other attack?

 

Summon is underpriced if your GM lets you abuse it by buying a naked attack power with no brain. For an actual fire-and-forget, you need to give it a lot more stuff, not to mention the 'slavishly loyal' (+1) advantage.

Ah, I'd forgotten about that, so I factored that in while I recalculated The Sinister Sky Shark's Seeking Shark Strike. Turns out I can have a 14D6 IPE (I'd bought Invisibility to sight, 1 charge that lasts for 1 extra phase for 5 points) fire & forget physical attack at range with the equivalent of Extra Time (Extra Phase) for 27 real points. Factor in the Slavishly Loyal advantage and it becomes 54 RP, leaving me 5 points to double the number of Shark Strikes. If I kept the damage at the level of my prior writeup (8d6), then I get another 10 points to summon up to 8 'Shark Strikes' at once.

Now if I'd bought a 14d6 AF2 IPE (sight) PB, Extra Time (Extra Phase) without wanting it to be 'seeking', it would've cost me 70 points, thus the FnF advantage actually saves me points. That sorta works against what I'd been taught about HERO.

See also: Killershrike's 'Lamplighter Effect' and 'Omega Beams' from the UNTIL Superpowers Database. Neither is especially cheap or effective for the cost.

I did. Killer Shrike's Lamplighters seem to be especially nasty. For 42 points, not only can the little buggers do 16d6 Energy to their target, but they can slam into said victim for 23D6 physical with a Move Thru at the same time (they have no STR, but they have a 35 DEF Force Wall that surrounds them and can move at 70" and their EB is No Range. Can we say 'Multiple Power Attack' boys and girls? I knew we could.).

The Nega Beam in the USPD is a 15D6 RKA, AVLD, Does BODY in an accurate 124" AE Radius and is worth over 1000 points! If I'd bought that without the 'seeking' and just applying the appropriate limitations, it would still cost 225 points, so again, the Summon method of FNF seeking saves me points (74 to be exact) and gives me a devastating attack for a mere pittance.

I bow down before Killer Shrike and Steve Long for their 133+ Munchkin-Fu skills. Or is it their ability to make an advantage cost like a limitation. I'm sure it's one of them...

Re: Instant, Constant, Persistent

I don't mean this in a bad way' date=' but I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.[/quote']

 

 

Sorry 'bout that, but the question 'what can an Instant power made Persistent do, anyway?' came up earlier, and you and Comic were arguing over wether an attack made 0 END, Persistent would look like a 'pulse' or a 'stream', and somehow, Goku's Genki-Dama sprang into my head as an example of an Instant power (in this case, RKA) made Persistent. Guess I got carried away.

 

In the episode I was referring to, Goku started an attack that took a long time (almost a minute) to get to full power and was interrupted. If the combat were played out in HERO, such an interruption would cancel out all the work that Goku put into that attack, but Goku was able to 'hold on to' some of that energy and made a smaller, weaker Genki-Dama that he handed off to Krillin. How could Goku make that smaller Genki-Dama in HERO terms? IMO, it could be done by making the RKA Persistent.

 

Since a persistent power is maintained even if the wielder is stunned or KO'd, a persistent attack power that gains effectiveness over time wouldn't be lost like it would be if it was an instant power and could be fired off at whatever level had been achieved before it was interrupted as soon as the wielder was able to throw it.

 

Umm... did I make more sense that time?

 

Oh and I think that a persistent attack would look more like a 'pulse' than a 'beam'.

Re: Instant, Constant, Persistent

Howzabout a scene from a cartoon as an example of a Persistent EB:

In the first battle between Son Goku & Prince Vegita on DragonBall Z, Goku flashes Veggie-kun (who's in giant Monkey form) with a Taiyoken (8D6 Explosive Sight Flash) and slips away while Vegita's blinded. Once he's far enough away, Goku starts collecting enough energy for a Genki-Dama.

Now Susano's built the Genki-Dama as a 5D6 RKA that gains 2D6 after 1 Turn and another 2D6 after 1 minute, but that doesn't cover all of what happened with that attack in that story, so I'll make some adjustments to it:

10u Genki-Dama: 294 Active Points; 98 Real Points

3D6 RKA, Area Effect (5" Radius, +1), 0 END, Persistent, Usable by 1 Other (+¼); Extra Time (Full Phase, -½), Cannot be used while in SSJ Mode (-½), Concentration (0 DCV, -½), Can be missile deflected (-¼), Attack Ends when Genki-Ball successfully hits something (-¼); 146 Active Points; 49 Real Points

plus 2½D6 Aid Genki-Dama Ball, Standard Effect (+7 APs), +187 Aps to Maximum (+202 Aps total), Delayed Fade Rate (-5 APs/minute, +¼); Cannot be used while in SSJ Mode (-½), Requires a Straight (but Jammable) PRE Roll (-¼), Concentration (0 DCV, -½); 148 Active Points; 49 Real Points

Basically, the Genki Ball itself is created and in that phase is instantly Aided 7pts (not enough to increase its effect by a DC, but after 29 phases, the Genki Ball's damage is at 9D6 RKA 14" Radius, Usable by 1 Other (the Aided points didn't need 0 END, Persistent as they have their own fade rate), and on that final phase before he starts to lose APs, he tosses the Genki Ball. Because the Genki-Ball is 0 END, Persistent, it's treated as a separate object, and the Aided points go into the Genki-Ball that's there now, not Gokus ability to make future Genki-Balls. Once the Genki-Ball hits something, those points are gone and have to be Aided back to the next Genki-Ball. The 'Requires a Straight (but jammable) PRE Roll' limitation reflects the fact that Goku has to appeal to every living thing in the biosphere for some of their life energy and sometimes the living things don't feel like giving up any (like in the final battle with Buu), but others can appeal for him (like Mr. Hercule Satan in the final battle with Buu).

Back to the fight. Goku has blinded Veggie-kun for 28 segments (let's call that phase 12 of turn 0). On Gokus next phase (2 segments have passed), He flies to a rock some 30" away and on the phase after that (4 segments down), Goku creates the Genki-Ball and begins feeding chi into it.

On phase 4 of turn 3, Vegitas vision finally returns and he starts looking for Goku. Goku's still 30" away (so Vegita incurs a -6 penalty to his PER Roll), but by this time, the Genki-Ball is a 6D6-1 RKA and is 17" in diameter (+10 to his PER roll), so Vegita needs to roll under 16 to spot Goku. Vegita rolls a six, enough to tell that Goku has to stand stock still while collecting that Chi-Ball. Not wanting to get hit with that big ball of chi, Vegita cuts loose with his Chi Breath (adding +6 STUN with 4 of his Combat levels since Goku's a sitting duck). He hits! And Goku is stunned. Because the Genki-dama is 0 END, Persistent, Goku doesn't lose the attack and can throw it anytime he has a shot, although he can no longer feed chi into it since he he was interrupted.

About 10 minutes later, after Goku's had nearly every bone in his body broken and lil' Gohan is throwing down with Vegita, Goku gives what's left of the Genki-Ball (about a 4D6 RKA) to Krillin to hit Vegita with. Krillin waits (almost losing another 5 pts from the Genki-Ball) before finally throwing it. However, Vegeta spotted it coming and flew out of the way (basically, he dove for cover straight up. However Gohan was able to Missile Reflect the Genki-Ball (because Gohan was able to deflect the Genki-Ball, the Genki-Ball was ruled not to have successfully hit him) back at Veggie-kun (who, having made a DFC once, can't do it again).

Krillin (since he was the one who threw the Genki-Ball) wins big on both the STUN Lotto (×5) and the BODY roll (24!). Vegita loses on knockback (-2). Vegita's KO'd, kicked another 22' into the air and will have to wait til' the next episode to come down (where he'll take another 25D6 from the fall).

Re: New Advangage: Seeking

Forget the to-hit bonus; it's relatively inexpensive to guarantee hits with AoE (Accurate) and NRM. The huge, unbalancing factor in fire-and-forget is that you benefit from additional attack actions. You could easily launch one of these for each enemy and then go have a sandwich while the opposition frantically dodges every turn ad infinitum.

 

If you want extra independent attacks (or any other kind of autonomous actions), buy a Summon or Duplication. Otherwise, you'll have to settle for directed homing attacks as a special effect of accuracy and Indirect.

But Summoning & Duplication are too cheap for the cost.. The cost for summoning an AIM-7 Sparrow Missile (20 DEX, 6 SPD, 40" Flight, & a 5D6 Armor Piercing RKA,see The Ultimate Vehicle, pg. 131-132) is 30 Real Points, summon another 64 of those for +30 points and put the whole thing in a 60 point MP. The closest I can come by describing a missile with powers is 365 Active Points, 112 Real. And that;s just for one.

I could do The Sinister Sky Shark's Seeking Shark Strike as a Summon for 31 APs, spend another 25 and summon 32 of them a phase to get mideval on a superteam. My earlier writeup had the SSS summoning only one of them at a time (anyone want to venture a guess on what a ×40 Autofire would add to the active & real costs?), and while one of the team's being chased around, the other members are beating the SSS silly.

A Fire & Forget attack has quite a few advantages over a regular attack, I agree (the ability to 'swarm' a target is interesting, and multiple attacker bonuses will be your friend). I just don't think that a Summon or a Duplication is a good way to reflect those advantages.

Re: New Advangage: Seeking

Your explination seems contradicted by this part of the write up:

 

Guiding the attack each phase requires a Half Phase Action and an Attack Roll. The character must continue to do this until the attack successfully strikes the target or chooses to stop the attack.

The character must expend the attacks END each phase while guiding the attack.

The character must be able to perceive the target during the attack.

 

What am I missing?

It's not what you were missing. Apparently. my eyes settled on the title ('New Advantage: Seeking') and pretty much ignored the rest of the thread, which I'd apparently been doing since I started following it.

After reading CTaylors original proposal and schir1964s revision, it seems more like they were after something like this:

76 Moon Tiara... Action!!!: (Total: 105 Active Cost, 76 Real Cost)

Tiara Toss: RKA 4d6 (60 Active Points); Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4) (Real Cost: 40)

plus Indirect (any origin, any direction; +3/4) for up to 60 Base Points of Tiara Toss (45 Active Points); Extra Time (Extra Phase, -3/4), Gestures (-1/4) (-1/4) (Real Cost: 36)

This is how I'd write up such an attack using 5th edition rules (the ¾ Indirect would always start the new attack off where the last attack ended off), while the idea I'd gotten (from reading the title, mind you) came out something like this:

90 The Sinister Sky Shark's Seeking Shark Strike: (Total: 192 Active Cost, 90 Real Cost)

Target Seeking: Target Seeking: Detect Specific Target (Target can be changed per use) 19- (Unusual Group), Discriminatory, Increased Arc Of Perception (360 Degrees), Range, Targeting, Tracking, Uncontrolled (Lasts until the attack hits something or maximum range has been reached) (+1/2), Ranged (+1/2) (82 Active Points); Extra Time (Extra Phase, -3/4), Nonpersistent (-1/4) (Real Cost: 41)

plus Seeking Strike: EB 8d6, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Persistent (+1/2), Indirect (Any origin, any direction; +3/4) (110 Active Points); Extra Time (Extra Segment, Attack moves at (total AP/5 = ) 38" per phase and requires at least 1 extra segment to reach it's target; -1/2), Cannot Use Targeting (-1/2), After the initial attack, this power uses Target Seeking to locate the target (-1/4) (Real Cost: 49)

This is the way I'd build a true 'fire & forget' attack that'll chase the target around using HERO 5th. The initial attack is made by the Sinister Sky Shark and will reach it's target in the next segment. If the attack misses, no big deal, on the next phase the Target Seeking will attempt to find the target. If it does (and with a 19-, it should), then the attack will veer around (the indirect aspect) and attack it again, and this sequence will repeat each phase until the maximum range of the attack (960") has been reached or it hits the target (or something else). If Target Seeking can't find the target, then the attack will continue on its current path for another phase (and another 38 ") until it either finds the target, runs out of range, or hits something else.

My apologies to CTaylor & schir1964. My only excuse for the mixup is that I'd just gotten out of bed when I checked up on this thread. M'i bad.

Re: New Advangage: Seeking

Maybe I'm dense but how does this differ from making a "new" attack each phase?

Simple, with schir's idea, you don't have to constantly monitor the attack and can do something else (fire off another attack, check on your buddy, walk away, ect.). It's the difference between launching a Heatseeking Missile at the Human Torch and firing a Wire-Guided Missile at him; With the W-G, you have to be at a control constantly directing the missile. With a Heatseeker, you can fire it and forget about it.

Re: Defense vs. mind-switch

My copy of The Ultimate Mentalist (for HERO 4th ed) has a Mind Transference power that's based on ECV (and requires Mental Defense to protect against it), so it's a safe bet to build your gadget with Mental Defense. As for how much a limitation this is, I's say -2 since it's defending against a single power (and one that doesn't even come up once in a blue moon at that).