Jhamin

Re: Stealth in Space

Here's a scenario: Your primary weapon is an antimatter payload or whatever' date=' loaded into half a dozen drones, which you send inside a volley of several thousand far cheaper secondary drones with identical signatures and much smaller atomic payloads, plus a few thousand more unarmed drones. They all have a package of AI-guided evasive capacity, ECM, etc. (possibly supported remotely by other drones or whatever - not assuming each drone's defenses are entirely self-contained). You blast out this death swarm and they spread over a huge area, in some configuration designed to tax whatever defenses the target has. The atomic warheads will nickel and dime the target, but the antimatter bombs will destroy it. The attacker's job is to make the primary, secondary and decoy drones look identical. The target's job is to choose which drones to focus its attention on. Given what we know, is this kind of approach (a) scientifically possible, ( technologically feasible and © strategically/tactically sound? (Assume for the moment that alternate delivery methods like smuggling in the antimatter isn't an option.)[/quote']

 

A pretty legit scenario. Lets tackle the various pieces of it.

 

1 - How far apart are the launch points and the targets? Interplanetary? (Venus to Mars) Inter-system? (Alpha Centauri to Sol)

1b - How long does it take to get from launch to target? Are these missiles moving at FTL speeds? .99 Light? .5 Light?

 

These first two linked questions tell us a *lot* about how much time the defender has to respond to the attack. If we are moving FTL then physics as we understand it are out the window and we are into super/rubber science type places. Lets avoid that for now. If you can get up to light speed it probably takes a while as all conventional materials known to science would sheer into subatomic particles when hit with instant acceleration (and any "real" engine we can imagine needs to accelerate up over a period of days or weeks).

This leaves us with planet to planet missiles that needs months to travel between launch and destination and solar-system to solar-system missiles that need years.

 

2 - Modern astronomical equipment could detect the launch of the space shuttle from pluto with enough detail to work out the engine power, mass, and velocity of the ship. Any society capable of interplanetary war probably has improved versions of this (just think how far 20 years of cold-war style funding did for radar, between WWII and the height of the cold war. If they spent that much on deep space scanning we would have spooky details on our hypothetical enemies). Assume any ship capable of interplanetary travel will be detected by a society capable of worrying about such things (which is how this thread started). A large fleet of such things will be impossible to miss.

 

Assume our target knows how many attackers are coming, what path they are taking, and how long it will take to get there.

 

3 - What weapons are we defending with?

- If we only have missiles too, then it becomes a race between the economies of the opposing powers. Who can build the most attack devices? The side with the most can fling them into the other sides fleet until they are all killed & then use the rest to kill the home planet of the aggressor. Remember that if you are traveling at interplanetary or inter-system speeds you can't dodge anything without changing your course enough to miss your target entirely. If targeting systems aren't up to hitting incoming missiles with countermeasures then your best tactic is to go with a cold war style "if you launch a cloud of missiles at me, I'll launch a cloud at you and we will both die".

- If we have beam weapons then you get into a situation where you have the months of travel time to work out perfect targeting solutions to hit each and every incoming attacker. Beam weapons in a vacuum aren't limited by range so you can start killing the incoming swarm the moment you detect them. You have to fire your beams at lightspeed & then wait months for them to hit their targets, but a target going at a good % of lightspeed has too much inertia to dodge & then get back on target to hit you, so anyone with a slide rule can predict where to shoot to hit them with your lasers/particle guns. You can start killing them months or years before they get close. This gives you plenty of time to kill thousands of them. If you can't hit them from far away, you are better off going with the cloud of missiles as discussed above.

 

4 - What is more expensive: Antimatter or your Engines?

If we are propelling dozens or hundreds of ships across vast distances how much economic sense does it make to arm only a few of them? How much sense does it make to arm *any* of them?

If antimatter is cheaper than engines (say on a 1:3 scale), every ship will have a full antimatter warhead. Why spend $3 million space bucks for a drone vs. $4 million space bucks ($3M drone + $1M antimatter) for a fully armed killer?

If engines are cheaper than antimatter (on that same 1:3 scale), why send antimatter at all? If you can build a $1 million space buck missile that can get up to light speed you already have all the planet-killing power you need.

According to Wikipedia "A 1 kg mass traveling at 99% of the speed of light would have a kinetic energy of 5.47×1017 joules. In explosive terms, it would be equal to 132 megatons of TNT or approximately 32 megatons more than the theoretical max yield of the tsar bomba, the most powerful nuclear weapon ever detonated. 1 kg of mass-energy is 8.99×1016 joules or about 21.5 megatons of TNT."

That's just 1kg, about 2/3 the weight of a bowling ball. If you slam into your target planet with a 10*ton* lightspeed engine you start wiping out continents or cracking the crust of the planet. Why spend $4 million space bucks for an anti-matter tipped warhead when you could buy 4 of these babies for the same price?

Re: Stealth in Space

There's a large error in one certain area, though: They're assuming that the heavy material needed to make a drone isn't significantly cheaper than the expensive, high-tech material needed to make a spaceship. A drone just needs a hull, an engine and to be filled with garbage to the same weight as the spaceship it's imitating. Any stellar nation would produce significant quantities of garbage, such as gold, which is semi-useless and very heavy.

 

Of course, you still have to pay for the engine.

The problem isn't just the mass. It is the heat. Any ship with a crew will be radiating heat from the life support system (the temp you have to heat the ship up to in order to keep the crew alive will shine like a beacon in the cold of space). Just engine heat=drone. Engine heat + Life Support heat = ship.

And anyway, if these drones are so cheap why are you using them as a distraction? If they can move fast enough to fool an enemy, they are moving fast enough to act as missiles. Just slam them into the target.

I've seen threads like this before. Basically, everything we know about detection in a vacuum says that both sides of a conflict will have semi-perfect knowledge of where the other is and where they are going. After that it all comes down to targeting.

Any attempt to make space combat work like navel combat (like star trek) or air combat (like Battlestar Galactica) is doomed to failure because the tactics used on the sea and in the air take advantage of the quirks of fighting in that environment. Trying to use civil war line formations in a dogfight is just silly, and trying to use aircraft stealth tactics in space is *just* as silly.

Re: CHAMPIONS BEYOND -- What Do *You* Want To See?

- I'd love to see info on galactic-level outlaws & warlords. The Space Pirate alliance, the warlord of the red nebula, etc.

- Are there any big legendary space monsters? Living Planets? Swarms of planet-eating space locusts?

- Any important landmarks like galactic libraries, temples, or barriers protecting unknowable secrets?

Re: Armour Piercing in Champions 6e

According to THIS:

 

• The shield is composed of the most durable known substance in the mainstream Marvel Universe. Despite numerous attempts, the Vibranium-Steel alloy has never been duplicated. The shield is not only nearly indestructible, but it absorbs a great deal of kinetic energy from impacts because of its Vibranium component. That is why the Hulk can pound it while Cap is holding it, without simply sending him into the ground or the air. Cap has also used the shield to cushion the force of impact when dropped from a high altitude by standing on the shield.
  
• The shield is in shape of a concave disc. The shield's shape makes it a superb throwing weapon, as it can cut through the air with minimal wind resistence. It is also able to bounce off solid objects, such as walls and floors, when struck on its edge, and can be ricocheted off of multiple surfaces. It can be caught after a single throw when angled properly. Edges are quite sharp, and never seem to dull.
  

And of course these are mutually exclusive.

If the shield can absorb kinetic energy, you can't ricochet it. Things bounce because they absorb and then release the kinetic energy they incur when hitting an object. If Cap's shield just plain absorbs the energy without reflecting then when thrown against a solid surface it should just drop to the ground after it absorbs and negates all the energy it incurred hitting the object. There would be nothing left to propel it in another direction.

If it *did* absorb & then release the kinetic energy then when Hulk punches the shield a percentage of that force should be reflected back into Hulk's fist. We have never been given any indication that happens. (The Hulk would probably be fine, but if kinetic force is reflected guys like Batrok should have bones shatter when they kick the shield)

Once again, the reader *expects* the shield to bounce, so it does.

Re: Armour Piercing in Champions 6e

I've never seen Cap stop a runaway bus by standing in the road and letting it run into his shield. That's all I'm saying.

At the risk of going off topic, I think your point is a good one to look at from the other direction. As I see it this is an interesting case of pushing the suspension of disbelief to a degree that it breaks for some but not others. To wit:

We see Hulk punch a bus or a train & stop it cold all the time, and we see Cap's shield stop punches from the Hulk without a problem... so Bus < Hulk Punch < Cap's Shield.

But when Cap steps in front of a bus to stop it cold with his shield most folks immediately start thinking "but even if the shield can take it, wouldn't his legs break?" or something to that effect. Our minds reject the physics of it. Yet our minds don't register the impossibility of Cap stopping a can-crush-tank-armor Hulk Punch because our minds are used to the idea of one guy blocking another guy's punch and all the forces that would actually be involved are easier to let slide.

I think the "Jumping off a roof and landing on his shield" issue is exactly as impossible as him stopping a bus *or* stopping a punch with the force Hulk's punches must have. It just lays somewhere between the two in "believability" and therefore really bugs some folks and not others. Some folks can let the physics slide & not think about it too much while others have their suspension of disbelief broken immediately.

Re: Armour Piercing in Champions 6e

[nitpick]By the rubber science of vibranium, it absorbs all vibration and kinetic energy. Thus, standing on the shield prevents any force of the fall passing through to the person standing on the shield. However, that was not Cap's shield, which is not made of vibranium, but rather a unique alloy incorporating many properties of adamantium, with (I believe) a bit of vibranium built in, which has never been duplicated or successfully analyzed. It was the shield he was given by the Black Panther, made of vibranium, while John Walker wielded the original shield at the government's request. Cap noted that this was a trick his own shield, which he still preferred, could never have duplicated. [/nitpick]

Unfortunately, Cap has done this with his own shield a few times. Of course most of the occasions I can summon up go back to the West Coast Avengers era.

Re: An Open Letter to the Boards About Surbrook's Stuff

I'll see if I can't finish up those Brisco County Jr. write-ups....

Re: CHAMPIONS VILLAINS Statistics

Does this mean Dr. Ms. Frankenstein didn't make the cut for inclusion? I am crushed–crushed I say!

She is a Lucha Libre Hero villain, not a Champions villain. Mere mutants and power armor heroes cannot hope to deal with the threats the Luchadores put down every night using only their pure hearts, manly ways, and sweaty tights. (before they go out on the town)

Re: Is 6th Edtion worth the money?

Let's not just look at the 6th edition rules in and of themselves, but also in relation to the wider world.

August 2009 - 6th Edition is released at Gencon

September 2009 - The world economy begins to collapse.

A lot of weak-kneed naysayers are going to tell you that Correlation is not Causation but I'd just like to point out that when figured characteristics were introduced during the Regan Administration we saw the beginning of an unparalleled rise in wealth across the world. Not 30 days after 6th edition broke everything a generation had worked for was lost.

Re: Total Point Cost Guidelines for 80's supers

Hugh is really hitting the nail on the head here.

You would quickly go insane reading all the old "how much Dex does Spiderman have?" threads going back as far as these boards have existed.

The thing that the old FASERIP Marvel Superheros had that Hero doesn't is official writups for the Iconic Marvel Characters. Spider Man had Amazing Agility. Period. It says so in the book! That means that Daredevil, Dexterous as he is, cannot have an Amazing Agility because in the comics they say over and over Spider is more agile than Daredevil. The existence of benchmarks in Marvel allowed everything else to be extrapolated.

There has never been an official writeup of a Marvel Character in Hero. Lots of guesses, even a couple posts by Hero employees, but nothing official. So we just all have to go by what feels right for each of us. Lots of folks feel the Thing is fine with a Str of 60-75, while others feel that he obviously needs 125.

So if Things strength is somewhere between 60 and 125 how can you even begin to guess what Thor or Wonderman have?

Re: How to do it? - Transformer Pretender Shell

I seem to recall that the characters inside their shells had a level of toughness that they sacrificed by emerging.

I might buy a multiform. One form is the combined "inside the shell" form and the other would have duplication (Shell and interior character). Of course if you are buying the interior character's alt-mode as a multiform this could get recursive pretty quick.....

Re: 6th Edition Mega-Scale and Movement

Another solution would be to avoid Megascale altogether and just use the default non-combat multiples:

 

20 Flight: Multipower, 20-point reserve - END=

2f 1) Combat Movement: Flight 20m (20 Active Points) - END=2

2f 2) Non-Combat Movement: Flight 5m, x16 Noncombat (20 Active Points) - END=2

 

slot 2 works out to about 120mph for a SPD 4 character.

This feels like the better solution to me as well. I see Megascale as being more of a way of crossing continental distances in 1 phase rather than crossing town in 60 seconds.

Not that you can't use Megascale that way, this is Hero after all. It just doesn't generate the best results.

Re: Gravity well power - how to write it?

There was a villain named Deadweight in the old 4th ed book "Enemies of San Angelo" who had this exact power. He was bought as a 50 Str TK "only to pull down".

You could do it with transforms, Density Increase UAA, and at least 4 other ways (this is hero) but the "it pushes you down" effect of TK gets you 95% of the effect with a lot less messy writeup.

Re: Order of the Stick

"I am a very generous lover!"

I liked:

"When has it (our trial) been scheduled to begin?"

"What's your Move rate?"

Re: Animated JLA, 6th Edition

Given how often WW's amazing good looks were mentioned in the series I'm surprised not to see a level or two of Striking Appearance. Or does that draw too many points from the important stuff? (All the heroes have physiques only possible in comic books/cartoons, but WW is the only one that gets much attention because of this)

As for the Foci? It is mentioned in the JLU seasons that her defenses come from her armor (made by Hephestus) but as we *never* see her unarmored I'm not sure that a focus limit is appropriate.

Re: Who is sticking to 4th or 5th Ed HERO

I'm very very lucky with my group. We have pretty much all played together for 20 plus years though and it helps

I think the fact that long running groups like this are common around here may be among the biggest reasons this debate is happening.

In my experience every group has it's share of rules arguments, and long running groups usually come to some sort of accord. Someone either comes up with a house rule everyone can live with, or an argument for the controversial rule that sways everyone enough that they can then live with it. Groups that cannot do this either just ban sections of the system, switch to a different game, or break up.

After a while, you forget these rules were ever controversial in the first place. Your group is on board with them & are happy with the reasoning behind them.

This thinking, IMHO, is at the root off a lot of this debate. Figureds make an intuitive sort of sense to many Hero players. That intuitive "it feels right" is at the core of the system for many. Others have found that High Str=More PD just doesn't make sense for some of their characters & really prefer the new system. But if everyone you play with is in one camp or the other, then the debate doesn't even happen except on the internet (where to my knowledge the good argument vs. random blathering ratio is somewhere around 1:50)

I have played with two long-running groups. One for 8 years and the other for 13 (and running). The biggest single challenge I had when switching was the realization that the new group enthusiastically embraced rules I thought were terrible, but still had fun. And had fun in ways my old group never did. Their paradigm made sense to them & after running with them for a while it made sense to me too.

Re: CHAMPIONS UNIVERSE Sneak Peek #1: The Cover!

Is it just me or does it look like Shadow Destroyer is thinking "Ouch, these buildings are pointy!"

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

Exactly! Something like that but bigger and more flushed out.

I see that someone else has mentioned Lucha Libre...

Re: Questions from a newbie

Just an elaboration: get the player to pick a hero they like from TV or literature and then track down a copy of that character that's already been written up in Hero, then make cosmetic changes. And change the name.

This is a very good answer.

Your players may very well resist this and want to make their own characters. Avoid this for the first few games.

Most games give you a mix & match approach to character generation where you pick from a menu of races, classes, archetypes, feats, packages, or whatever and you simply gather the ones you want and end up with a character. As you likely know, Hero doesn't work this way. I have seen several experienced RPG players freeze up when they try to make a character in Hero without some experience in Hero first.

One other bit of advice:

In (say) pathfinder, how much damage a character can take or dish out is set by default by the mechanics. A longsword does a set amount of damage & you can only pump them up so much with the options you have at 1st level. In hero a Longsword does whatever damage you decide it does and there is *nothing* preventing a character from spending all their points on hitting more & doing more damage with it. This can get crazy.

The answer to this is for everyone, GM and Players alike, to agree on "how good is good" in this game & stick to it. When you do pick some pregens (or finally allow new characters) make sure you lay out some game limits and stick to them. It requires some maturity on the part of the players & GM but it heads off a lot of the "Hero Horror Stories" that crop up in RPG forums.

Re: So..what characters from earlier editions have you updated to 6th?

I keep the Deconstruction Company from 4th Eds High-Tech Enemies up to date. (A thematic team of super-mercs strong enough to duke it out with PCs? Too useful to let go stale). My version is fairly close to the old 4th ed stats but moves a lot of the stuff in their back stories into their writeups (like Chainsaw & Jackhammer's Mafia contacts). They are also rewritten to allow the guys with lots of multiple weapons to make Multi-Power attacks when logical.

I also keep Bullet & Big John from Bullet's raiders up to date. Their characters are very much the same but I've changed their stats to reflect a more "DOJ" way of writing up really skilled enemies. I also dropped the alien robot from the Raiders & replaced him with a couple of super-mercs themed around their preferred weapon. (The thing I always found compelling about Bullet was his "supers are sissies, soldiers are real men" attitude and that just didn't jibe with the space-alien robot on his team)

As I suspect is true of most folks, 6th edition writups of various PCs and important homebrew NPCs were my first exploration of 6th edition's rules changes. It was interesting to watch how some characters got cheaper or stayed about the same and others got really expensive. The "10 Dex, 3OCV/DCV/6 overall skill levels" light brick PC was kind of a treat.

Re: Orbital Satellite Cannon in HERO 6th Edition?

You have already gotten a couple different answers to your question, and part of the reason is that you posted stats for a GURPS gun, but we don't know what function this Killsat will have in your Game. As with so many things in Hero we need to start with "what do you want it to do?".

For example, if a character pushes a button and a building explodes? Then it is an Indirect RKA with area of effect. The fact that the beam comes from a satellite is just a justification for the building getting leveled by an attack that does a ton of body.

On the other hand, if the Killsat is an opponent that somebody (like the PCs ) need to fly up and destroy & save the city? In that case, you would build it as a vehicle with an onboard computer so it has stats & can be fought.

If a supervillian lives on the Kill Sat (Like the Heroes on Justice League Unlimited), then it is probably a base with a big, Megascale RKA bought as part of the Base writeup.

Re: "Bloodied" in HERO

I seem to recall an old 4th edition gladiator type character from Alien Enemies had this exact power. He had extra PD, ED, & Con "Only when under xx Stun" to reflect his amazing fueled-by-determination comeback victories. His name was "The Champ" or something like that.

Re: Order of the Stick

So, if the old man had at least 5 wives.. has he only had 2 kids?

Re: Does the Giant Flaming Ape have a name?

Does it say something about my geekiness that I'm pretty sure Infernape could take him?

Re: Armor Wars

I find that as with anything that requires suspension of Disbelief, it is better to just ignore the issue rather than try to justify it. Justifications invite people to examine them.

As others have pointed out, in the Iron Man movie Stark built a functional suit of Power Armor in a cave with scraps while Stark Industries couldn't get one to work when they had funding and a prototype to reverse-engineer. Stark meanwhile went on to build two more *vastly* improved revisions of the suit in his (admittedly pretty tricked out) basement by himself.

Mad scientist effect? Mutant power? Cosmic Key radiation? Doesn't matter. It works. And once the suit is built, Iron Man II shows us Rhodey can put it on and use it just as well as Stark while Hammer Industries has just as much luck building knockoffs as Stane's R&D crew did in the first movie.

This is *really* a "either live with the genre conventions or change genres" type of a question. There is a lot of Anime that show us that an "everyone with the $$ has power armor" world is very workable. These just aren't superhero stories.