Christopher R Taylor

I have a question about the maps: would people prefer fancy maps or more old-school fun blue dungeon maps?

Heh yeah Wondy was a bit naughty under her original creator.

Another odd aspect to Golden Age stuff that doesn't translate over well now is the zany friend.  Newsboys, oddities, and silly guys that are always getting in trouble are a common feature in many Golden Age comics that were otherwise serious.  They were drawn cartoony even when the rest of the comic was not, like this guy:

And then there's the sidekick, the kid related to the hero to help them out and get in trouble (or bail out the hero).  This was such a standard for years that its really not possible to be fully true to the genre without one but... these days its either thought of as creepy by the dirty minded or just too silly.  Stan Lee notoriously HATED sidekicks and vowed to never allow them, which was pretty much the death of the sidekick.

Working these into a game is interesting, I've never tried it, though I've considered it as a freebie follower for characters.

A funky triggered duplication build could work too, with altered duplicate (weaker, being an infant).

Good points brought up here.  It certainly could be just a campaign rule, but having a Hero rules Framework, for example, that helps in building talent/skill tree type structures would be useful for simulating certain concepts of character builds.

Usually Hero is so free-wheeling and open that concepts like this don't fit, but it would be something handy for a certain sort of game or campaign.

One of the most common devices in computer games for character advancement is the skill tree; a system by which you are able to buy skills, talents, powers, etc one at a time, unlocking later "layers" or "branches" in the tree.  For example, a fire mage can buy fire blast, then later because he has unlocked fire blast, he can later buy fireball.

While some people despise this system, it is very common and is useful for certain concepts in games.  In Hero its a bit unclear how to do this.

2nd edition Fantasy Hero (or, Fantasy Hero in 4th edition Hero) used a system for spells and ninja hero abilities which required x points in the previous tier to buy the next tier's abilities (so you could buy fire ball only after spending 10 points in novice fire spells, for example).  But it was pointed out that this was a limitation that didn't limit: once the power was purchased, it was in use and not limited in any way.  The problem with this is that a limitation that doesn't limit you is worth no points, and violates a basic Hero concept.

Another option is to put restrictions on purchases that do nothing to price, so you simply impose a rule that a character cannot buy Take That You Fiend until they buy at least 10 points worth of novice blasts.  The problem with this is that its a penalty with no corresponding reduction in cost, which also violates a basic Hero concept.

So, any ideas?

This is true, although there's a distinction between early Golden Age and later. After the war, the comics shifted and had a different approach as their popularity waned.  However, it does seem that having lower powered heroes fighting against more ordinary foes most of the time is a good direction to go for a Golden Age campaign.  This particularly works well for games where the PCs are the first heroes; there aren't many super-villains around.

I don't mind a few daffy villains, because that's period but they shouldn't all be goofball.  A mix, like Kingdom of Champions had would work well for me: some strange theme villains, some wartime based ones, and some just standard criminal types.  Penny Dreadful is fine, but you gotta have Eisenkreutz and The Bowery Boys in there too.

To me the essence of a good Golden Age Champions game is twofold:

1) Make it as  historically immersive and accurate as possible, because the time is so amazingly rich with historical events and personalities.  Having your characters be congratulated by Major LaGuardia over defeating the super-powered version of Lucky Luciano is just fun.

2) Have your morality be absolutely black and white.  None of this "its all a matter of perspective" gray areas crap but good guys are good, bad guys are bad.  That doesn't mean they have to be stupid or simplistic, but everyone should have a clear idea where the lines are drawn.

Timelines for that time period are easy to find, and I've had a load of fun with real-world events and how the PCs interact with them.  Sometimes I've even messed with the chronology, so King Kong, the Hindenberg, and the War of the Worlds happen in 39-40 so far.  As long as you're reasonably close to the time period, players will accept it.

I've also found it useful to include a relative time period reminder, so players get a feel for when things took place.  Such as how very recent WWI was, or when prohibition ended, etc.  Saying it in terms such as "WWI ended 18 years ago, so for us that would be 1997" can really help bring this home.

Yeah I knew a new edition was coming out, and there's a ton of great background info available.  Mostly what these supplements need are scenario ideas, adventures, and prepared storylines for GMs.  I really liked the NPCs in the GAC book and its a terrific supplement, but the tone seemed too light hearted to me.  I don't think the game needs to be grim and gritty with wolverine clones and all that early 90s crap but the comics at the time were not silly or goofy.

I've been running a Golden Age Champions campaign for about a year and a half now, and its been a lot of fun to slip in various historical events like the wreck of the Hindenburg and the evacuation from Dunkirk.  But the source material for Golden Age stuff is usually really light hearted, even goofy and silly.  Having read a lot of Golden Age comic books, they aren't silly so much as pulp-themed.  Characters will even kill villains on occasion - not execute them, but if the bad guy happens to fall into the gears of a machine well, no more than he deserved.

The really colorful silly stuff was late in the golden age and early silver, mostly silver age.  That's fine but it doesn't really say GAC to me.

The spirit rules were a good raw idea, and its too bad they never got developed in later editions into a part of the game.

In any case, I think the cover works; its interesting to look at, gives a fantasy feel, has the requisite "strong woman" figure in it, and should be well received.

I'm not sure whether you're referring to the old "Core Rules" model or the new "Complete in one book" model. 

 

I think a 240 page "complete in one volume" game looks pretty good sitting beside three volumes of the current edition of Dungeons and Dragons, or the enormous Pathfinder core rulebook (both of which sit beside numerous additional books that the gamers just can't get along without). 

Sorry I wasn't more clear; I was referring to Jason's statement about stand alone rule books not selling well, which was about the 2-volume massive 6th edition rule set.  That didn't sell well because in the heart of a recession, not many had a spare 100+ bucks to blow on a set of RPG rules.

I'm not convinced the market changed so much as the spare change gamers had to invest in a new edition and the cost/size of that new edition went in opposite directions.  Plus, looking over the store, it wasn't precisely clear what books were the main rules and to buy; they all looked the same and had pretty similar write ups.

I write this not to bash anyone but out of frustration, because I think it hurt my favorite hobby and what I think is the finest game system and set of rules that has ever been created.  The new direction Hero is going is selling well, which is good, and that is helping the Champions brand, which is also very good.

I think the rule book model can work but its got to be, you know, smaller and cheaper.  If your rules cost as much as a college textbook and functions well as a chock to stop aircraft, yeah you're going to be challenged to sell the monster.  But if you slim it down and make it cost a bit less, well that's going to be a bit more attractive to buyers, I'd think.

My only concerns are that the dwarf is clearly not ready for a fight wearing his pack like that, and that girl doesn't look remotely imposing, so the Dragon must just be a friend of theirs or a very silly creature.

I agree, the best way to learn the system is build characters.  If you need ideas, just try to do some conversions of villains you like, such as Loki or Red Skull, Joker, General Zod, Venom, etc.  Once you get comfortable building guys you will have a good grasp on the system as it works.  There are tons of characters online you can find as well.

The system is moving away from the "all our books look the same" pattern and that should help, but it really is not very clear what is the rules and since each new book is printing the rules again, its even less clear for buyers, I fear.

This is one of my fears with the present situation Hero Games is in.  From a Facebook post:

 

I'm new to Champions & HERO and would like to know where to start.

I have the Champions Complete book, and while it's great, I borrowed a friend's "Champions: The Super Roleplaying Game" (the 6th edition one). Somehow, I felt the Champions Complete digs very much into rules minutiae, but not as much setting as "Champions: the Super RPG". Also, being B&W, it felt strange to have a core book in B&W and a supplement in full-color.

Which book is right?  What do you buy to play?  Which are the rules?  What does a shop order?  We know, because we've been playing the game, but someone new trying it out?

That's why I put disads on magic items.  Sure you got a potion of Healing, but it has Distinctive Looks: magical treasure.  Like that Flaming Sword of Doom?  Its hunted by the Knights who say Ni and has a psychological Complication: Hates priests.  If you won't go along with the sword, it puts out its fire

I think an advantage that adds to minimum damage (but not max) would be useful for some rare effects.  +1/4 for each die having +1 minimum damage (so the die is 2-6 instead of 1-6, all 1's being shifted to 2) seems a possible cost.  This would greatly reduce the low end of volatility but not affect overall power.  I've used it for some magical weapons in my fantasy loot book.

Its simple enough.  Rejecting a rule or aspect of a game because people will argue over it is going to lead you to stopping play any games at all.  Gamers debate rules, particularly on forums like this.

I still use average defense for AE attacks on characters.  Its a little work to get figured out but its handy in heroic games.

From my study and information on trauma, weapon damage, and wounding, having attacks do significantly more stun than body is more realistic, as far as the game goes.  Its extremely rare that someone just outright dies from a hit unless its incredibly catastrophic like falling out of orbit or being hit by a butane bomb.  Usually people take a significant injury to an area, are knocked unconscious and die from blood loss or trauma over a period of time either short or long.

However, in fantasy games people are so used to fiction and D&D where you hit creatures until they fall down dead, fighting to the last hit point, so the stun system in Hero confuses some, I think.

This one thing that bothers me. A bunch of you saying that you need to use hit locations. Hit locations are optional. The game shouldn't depend on optional rules-hence then they aren't optional.

Some genres work best with hit locations and other optional rules.  Others don't.  Superhero games for instance are best without the bleeding and hit locations.  A gritty game set in WWI would be wrong without them and impairing, etc.  So whe people say "need" they mean "your genre won't be very well represented without them" rather than "you're compelled to use this by the might of Thor."

Yes but Tasha how many people worry about stun in a heroic game-especially fantasy? But if do then you have a valid point.

Its rare anyone dies before being knocked out in a heroic game.  Especially with hit locations, as people note.  Stun is cheaper to buy now, but its not that big a change.