Monolith

What I think I'd really like to see is a supplement that is more interactive with the CU enviroment. To me both UNTIL and VIPER were more crunch than cream. I'd like to see more cream. Yes it's nice to see 100 different DEMON weapons but seeing that is not as important as seeing some plots that DEMON is instigating; seeing how they are attempting to bring the world into their, and the Kings', grasp.

I'd like to see how their structure works, and know about the places DEMON "recruits" operatives. Give us some places of interest, certain nightclubs or whatever. Gives up places we can add to our existing game, not just dry facts. I'd like to know how to link them to Millennium City and Vibora Bay. I want to see how DEMON works, not what tools they use to make it work.

Tell us about all the Inner Circle Morbanes and their hidden agendas. Evil at this level always has a hidden agenda. I'm envisioning something more along the lines of the Hellfire Club and their constant power-struggles to take command. I also don't think that the Inner Circle needs to be all-powerful. I'm not interested in seeing more 2,000 point characters. I'm interested in seeing real people with real lives and real objectives.

Gadgets and spells are all nice things but I have some 7,000 spells to choose from in the FHG. I have several thousand gadgets I can convert to magic items in G&G. I don't need more crunch to make this work. I need some cream.

Originally posted by Kristopher

I could see giving Cap a 25 STR (he can do reliably what the best athletes in the world only do by pushing themselves).

I would point out that the rules state that NPCs, like athletes, unless they are very important NPCs, are not allowed to Push (page 287). So when you see a powerlifter in the game pressing or lifting some amount of weight it is because he has the STR to do it, not because he's pushing. That makes a big difference in design philosophy because everyone just assumes all the NPCs are pushing all the time.

I also just can't see giving Cap the same STR as Seeker. Cap is the best a human can be, Seeker is a victim.

All that material is part of the Resouce Kit which you can purchase in the online store as a pdf download.

There's a fairly common Limitation that says Only Affects Targets On The Ground: -1/4. This is to represent AE powers which do not have the "dome" effect.

I personally don't mind the power-levels of the UNTIL and VIPER agents because there are so many different choices. The basic VIPER agent does 8d6, has 10 average DEF, and a 3 SPD. The basic UNTIL agent does 10d6, has 10.5 average DEF, and a 3 SPD. Even in squads of 8 (VIPER) or 7 (UNTIL) those characters do not pose that much of a threat to PCs.

And yes, Peacekeepers are tough (the example character having 321 points) but there are only 3 dozen of them. As the book also states, it's rare to see two Peacekeepers together. So PCs should seldom ever encounter more than one or two Peacekeepers with a normal squad of UNTIL agents. But even as powerful as the Peacekeepers are, they are still only 3 SPD characters, and thus not too difficult for a PC to defeat.

I think the new VIPER and UNTIL books are giving us a gambit of power-levels to choose from. You can use the "basic" write-ups for a standard CU game, or you can use the "advanced" write-ups for more powerful games, or you can mix-and-match like I do to always keep your players on their toes.

I do it because I prefer to GM. I have oodles of creativity just boiling up inside of me most of the time. Unfortunatly I'm not a good writer (all the people who proof-read my CU campaign book can testify to that ) so trying to get that creativity down on paper is not a simple process. That basically just leaves me with expressing my creativity through GMing. As a player you're more limited to expressing yourself through one character. As the GM you get to play many characters and get to interact with many different circumstances. Plus, for me, it's just more fun to control the flow of the story rather than trying to react to it as a player does.

Personally, I just gave Millennium City more of a San Angelo/Freedom City feel. What always interested me about SA was its Astro City feel. It was a place where seeing superhumans was common. I think you have that in MC. You have a city built upon the idea that heroes and heroism cannot be stopped. MC is a city that likes and respects its heroes. Sapphire has a radio talk show, for example, and Dr. Silverback is always seen out-about town. You have publicty supers such as Binary Man and Cavalier. The only thing in MC that were missing, IMO, was a greater "feeling" about how the people of MC interact with the heroes. The book could have used a little more cream along those lines.

So do I think SA can be used in the CU? Yes, quite easily. SA is not a special city, it's just a city that has a humanistic regard for heroes. I think MC is also supposed to have that feel, so having the two cities co-exist is quite simple (outside of the power-level differences and basic origins of superpowers).

I'd suggest using Stretching for the "reeling in" aspect. That way the harpoon has a limited range, and the STR needed to reel the quarry in will be based off of the character's STR.

Something along the lines of:

2d6 RKA, Limited Range 10": -1/4, OAF: -1, Beam: -1/4, 1 Rec charge: -11/4 plus 10" Stretching 0 END: +1/2, No Noncombat: -1/4, No Velocity: -1/4, Always Direct: -1/4, OAF: -1, Limited Part: Harpoon Line: -1/4, Lockout: -1/2 (cannot do anything else while attempting to reel in prey). Total Cost: 29 points.

Re: Combat/Non-Combat movement question

Originally posted by misttar

1) Do a 80" move as a full-phase action, moving at Non-combat movement speeds (1/2 dcv, 0 ocv)

 

2) Do a 40" move as a half-phase action, moving at Non-combat movement speeds (1/2 dcv, 0 ocv)

 

3) Do a 10" move as a half-phase action, moving at Non-combat movement speeds (1/2 dcv, 0 ocv)

I believe the rule with Noncombat Speed is that you can only accelerate your movement per phase. So to reach a velocity of 80" with a base 10" the Character needs to spend 8 phases.

How do these change if the character has Rapid Noncombat Movement, Combat Acceleration/Deceleration, and/or Noncombat acceleration/decleration?

Rapid Noncombat Movement would allow the character to reach full velocity quicker. In your example above the character would be able to reach Full NCM in 3 Phases instead of 8.

Combat Acceleration/Deceleration means the character can reach his normal combat velocity, or stop his full combat velocity, in one hex instead of the normal 5" velocity per hex rule.

Noncombat Acceleration/Deceleration means the character can reach his Full NCM in a single phase rather than it taking many Phases.

And, how much end do those moves (if valid) cost?

The END will always be 2 for your power described above. Noncombat velocity does not increase the END usage.

All of this is covered on page 83 and 84 of FREd.

Dive For Cover is not a movement power, it's a defensive action. The purpose of the maneuver is to either A) get away from an area attack, throw yourself in front of someone else to protect them, or C) flee an opponent who is attacking you.

I don't consider the maneuver to be restrictive at all. You cannot just allow someone to have a better chance of avoiding an attack just because they have a larger movement power. Game balance needs to be maintained. If you want your fast-moving character to be better at DFC then purchase some Penalty Skill Levels for him to offset the Diving penalties. That seems more logical to me then to just give an advantage to people who move farther.

Originally posted by Vorsch

I like anklosaur myself, but with the OIF armours hes more like 500pts

Yeah, but it's really no different than a player having a character with OIF either.

Originally posted by Metaphysician

400-500 is within the "low level" range for villains, since even a 500 point villain shouldn't pose too big a threat to a team of five 350 point heroes on his own, usually.

I would follow-up here by saying that 38 villains in CKC are built on 400 points or less. And not to be contrary to your opinion, but Ankylosaur gave my players quite a fight, and he's only a 350 point villain.

If you want to be somewhat realistic then you look up the cost of ammo on the internet once and make a character that you can always have. Otherwise you can just assume that the players, with an average level of income, can afford to buy more ammo. You don't see too many characters from tv, movies, or books running around looking for money to buy ammo.

Originally posted by death tribble

Having got this yesterday I have the same problem with this as I had with the UNTIL book. I don't like some of the artwork. Specifically the pics of the villains by their stats. I note that the same artist who did these did the ones in the UNTIL book.

I'm finding myself becoming increasingly less excited about the artwork myself. The simple B&W line art just doesn't convey any feel throughout the book. The picture on page 6, for example, what is that supposed to represent?

I don't like to be critical of anyone's art style but about the only pictures I liked in the book were the ones done by JC CRAM because he used greyscale to represent feel. Andrew Cremean's stuff wasn't bad either but I felt it was a tad too dark. The picture on page 24 looks as though I drew it! And the pic of Firedrake looks like something left over from Terran Empire that they just threw stats to so they could use the picture. I was also disappointed in all the re-use of pictures in the book.

I really think it's time DOJ started thinking in terms of one book, one artist. As it is now there is no feel for the characters in the book. When you marry simple layout design to inconsistant art you end up with an average-looking product in a market which is now being dominated by high-end graphics design. I really hope this trend doesn't continue.

Re: Dark Champions

Originally posted by sbarron

The super genre has been pretty well covered by Hero products so far. I'd like to get more info on playing the genre's listed above. Not toned down supers, and not agents from a superheroic setting. Something closer to the "real" world.

I agree that the superhero genre is covered well by Champions but DOJ must publish books which sell. We've already seen that the scifi genre is a dead fish. Iron/bronze age street-level superhero material has always been popular within the Hero community, and popularity leads to sales.

As I said in the other thread, the Dark Champions book will be a genre book which covers many aspects of street-level crime, but I really don't expect to see DOJ publish a SWAT book, for example, in the near future. The demand just wouldn't be there.

The HoJ thread reads like Hudson City will be the Gotham to Millennium City's Metropolis. But the modern day action adventure, espionage, technothrillers, special forces, and cops and robbers genre's don't have superheroes. Vigilante crimefighting obviously could, but it doesn't have to. Is Dark Champions intended to cover the low powered supers setting, and also cover the other genres it lists in it description? Or will it only cover the genres it lists, and leave the low powered supers to its Champions line (this is my hope)?

My understanding is that DC will cover it all from lower-powered supers genre to SWAT teams. The sub-genre books will break it down further. Hudson City is the lower-powered superhero sub-genre. Something else will be the "espionage" sub-genre, etc. This is the same as saying The Turakian Age is a sub-genre for "classic" fantasy while the The Valdorian Age is a sub-genre for dark fantasy.

Will Hudson City be like DC's Gotham, meaning a setting for 4th Ed Dark Champions (e.g. low power supers)? Or will it be a city outside of the Champions Universe, where there are no superpowers and no superheroes?

Hudson City is part of the CU. It is listed as existing in the CU on page 80 of Champions Univese in the sidebar.

And what does that mean for Predators? Will it contain a bunch of Batman type villians? Or will it be James Bond, Bruce Willis character, and Tom Clancy type baddies?

My guess is that Predators will be low-powered, street-level villains to be used with Hudson City. Some of the other books will be describing other things. Looking at the potential future books we see:

The Cagliostro Project (subgenre book)

Danger International (subgenre book)

Dark Champions: The Animated Series (subgenre book)

The Evil That Men Do (crime and organized crime sourcebook)

Fell's Point (setting/campaign book)

The Man On The Street (normals book)

SERAPH (organization book)

As you can see, The Cagliostro Project and Danger International will be other Dark Champions genres. DOJ just chose to go with Hudson City first due to the popularity of lower-powered supers. My guess is that SERAPH will be for Danger International (very Bond-like) and The Evil That Men Do will be usable for multiple genres.

It doesn't appear that the military genre will be covered too quickly, but Steve did mention he wanted to do a book on that when he was cutting the information from Alien Wars, so it is forthcoming eventually.

Lastly, what are you hoping for from Dark Champions?

I'm not a big fan of the DC genre itself. I have more use for low-powered supers (converting to Champions) than I do Danger International. I never could understand how DI worked in a group basis. It always ended up seeming to Mission: Impossible-like for me. I wouldn't mind seeing more information on organized crime, but that's really about it for me.

As far as the Phase 12 comment, it's on page 233. Upper right corner.

I like to use cardboard minis myself. That way I can easily use Range Modifiers and other things to make the game more interesting.

The binding for 5E is very strong. Darren Watts even tested the bindings before printing the books by putting them in an industrial dryer at a local laundromat to make sure they would hold up. The binding is strong so have no worries.

I agree with Devlin1. Saying "Phase 12" is how I've started combats for 15 years.

As far as movement, if you're not using a map of some sort then you must state from the beginning distances.

"Phase 12. You come around the corner and can see the outline of two shimmering individuals through the gloom. It's obvious they both have Force Fields on, and they appear to be looking in your direction. You are 40 (20 inches) meters from them. Nighthawk, you're first..."

At that point the player of Nighthawk knows he can only run 9", or 18" Noncombat. If he chooses to go Noncombat you tell him he will get within 2" of the "shimmering individuals" at the end of the phase. If he chooses to go Combat speed then he will be 11" away at the end of the Phase. Just jot that number down on your paper and them move on to Defender.

Originally posted by Koshka

Not quite a fair comparison, since Copperhead is only 239 points -- and while it's not on her character sheet, she reads like she was built with Normal Characteristic Maxima.

I think you're missing my point here. The problem with Dark Champions and the reason I feel it should not be part of the mainline CU is because the heroes use a lower characteristic and power level. DC is built around the premise that most characters are 3-4 SPD, less than 20 DEX, etc. CU is built along the premise that characters are 5-6 SPD and more than 20 DEX.

It doesn't matter that Copperhead is only built on 239 points because no starting character in DC will be built on 350 points. My whole point is that my character Darknight in DC will never be as powerful as Nighthawk even when they are both starting level. Because of that I can never use DC characters in my CU game without making them more powerful or use CU characters in my DC game without making the weaker. If it's the same universe/world/country then make both characters equally powerful and have Hudson City just be darker and grittier, not weaker.

Originally posted by WhammeWhamme

And did anyone *see* the old DC sourcebooks? Some of those baddies were scary for ANYBODY.

Yeah, that's basically my point. Batman's villains are not weaker. They can hold their own against most of the heroes in the DC Universe. You just need to take Green Lantern and Superman out of the equation. Those two heroes are a category by themselves in the same way that Dr. Destroyer is in the Champions Universe.

I just don't see a reason why only low-powered characters would gravitate to Hudson City when it seems like a good percentage of the villains in the CU would enjoy being there as well.

Re: Focus/Independent Questions

Originally posted by Evilgod

1. Can a villain kill a hero (or possibly another villain) and permanently take a universal focus?

This depends on the genre (heroic or superheroic) and whether or not the GM cares if a villain kills a character and takes his equipment. In most cases it does not matter if a villain takes someone's equipement because the villain is under the control of the GM, and it's the GM's job to maintain balance within the game.

2. What about someone whose character gimmick is a thief, could you play a focus thief, against other players or NPC. If so how long could they keep them. Could that character turn around and sell them to another player, until the original owner was able to retrieve it. Or, is this only the case if the power has Independent hook to it.

Once again this depends on the genre. Assuming a heroic level genre it is possible that a thief can steal someone's equipment and sell it (I think if he tried to use it the PCs would make him give it back). It's also possible that the item taken is not so unique that the PC cannot get another one (I've lost my broadsword. I guess I better go buy another one).

In the superhero genre the player needs to pay points to be able to permanently use an item. He can use it for an adventure or two, depending on the situation, but paying the points for the item is required if he wants to continue using the item. The paying of points in a superhero game is what ensures play balance between characters.

3. What about guns and the such, according to my interpretation to the rules, in a superhero campaign a character must pay for everything including mundane things like guns. So what's the point of spending points on the Resource Perk (especially the 15pt gazzilionare one)? Were reasonably if one had enough money and the resource, they could by anything: robots, tanks, M-60s, etc.

The resource Perk allows you to be able to spend the points on the weapon. Joe Cardboard Box lives in an alley off main street is not going to have enough money to be able to buy Hummer to ride around it. Joe Millionaire does. It doesn't matter how many points Joe Cardboard Box has, if the character cannot justify the resources to get the item he really cannot get it.

4. What about Contacts and Favors? If one's Contact is a weaponsmith, shouldn't they be able to purchase weapons (or maybe even more exotic things depending on who or what the contact specialty is) without having to pay character points for them? If so how long can they keep them? Until the end of the adventure, until they are broke or lost in the heat of battle?.

Once again character points go back to play balance. Money is the SFX of how you get the item, not how your character pays for it. The fact that you have a contact allows you to have a SFX of getting the items in questions. It does not mean you can have everything you want just because you have a Contact.

Once again, most GM's will allow a player to "get" and use an unpaid for item for an adventure or two. It depends on the nature of the adventure. If the players are in the Savage Lands for a month the GM might allow you players to use spears for the month. If the players are in Millennium City then the GM might require the character to get rid of the used item when they return to base.

You need to remember that it is in the superhero genre to not spend a great deal of time using "found" items. Daredevil does not pick up every item of his foe's and add it to his arsenal. Daredevil uses his own equipment and he likes it that way, not matter how much better his opponent's equipment might be.

5. What if someone's universal focus is a "Death Ray Ring" and a opposing character successfully wrestles it away from the owner. They then turn around and use it on the original owner and turn him to cinders, is this a free item or are the points used up when the original character is dead? Once again is it all up to whether or not Independent is involved?

If a player wrestles Mandarin's Death Ray Ring from him and kills him with it, then Mandarin is dead. But again in a superhero game the player only gets to permanently keep the item if he can pay the character points for it. As was mentioned above, it's a play balance issue and a superhero genre issue.

Originally posted by Greatwyrm

I can agree with you, up to a point. Since I've started looking at HERO, I've been very impressed with the quantity and quality of supplements available. To be honest, though, I'd never have even seriously considered a fantasy game without FH, FHG, and MMM.

 

Maybe my situation is unusual. I'm a new convert. I'd most likely be GMing for a group that has never played the HERO system, in any incarnation. I'm feeling pretty confident in my grasp of the basic rules, but I'm still overwhelmed by the options. Maybe it's just still being a newbie that makes it look more daunting than it is.

We all started the same basic way. The game has always been daunting. It's an acquired taste.

I personally don't believe a person should start playing FH without the FH, the Bestiary, FHG, and MMM. But I also don't think a new GM should be playing D&D without all three of their CORE books too. A D&D GM wouldn't want to make up 500 monsters for his players to fight or create 1,500 spells for his wizard/clerics to cast. No same person other than Steve Long likes to do all that work.

The supplements are published to "supplement" people's need to do work for themselves. By spending $25.00 you save yourself literally hundreds of man-hours. This is the same reason WotC or White Wolf or any other publisher produces material. Everyone publishes books to save gamers time. I respect that and accept it. I don't frown on it because I want to do all the work myself because I'm a good Hero gamer.

Originally posted by Metaphysician

You know, the Hudson City/DC side-setting element doesn't *necessarily* have to be weaker, pointwise, than default Champions. If the default point value is 250 Heroic, than thats about equal to a beginnging Champions character, once you factor in equipment. In which case, it becomes a matter of tone more than anything else.

When I say weaker I'm referring to NCM limits and decreased Damage Classes. Most weapons in FRED do not exceed 7 Damage Classes, and thus you do not see much more than that in a Dark Champions game. Few "normal" Champions games have 7-8 DC limits.

Looking at Copperhead (20 DEX, 4 SPD, 8 DC attack) she looks quite weak next to Nighthawk (25 DEX, 6 SPD, 12 DC attack). In my mind the two characters should be about equal.

I like the concept of Dark Champions. I just don't like the power-level disparity between DC and NC. I think it throws the game out of perspective in many people's minds. I personally don't think we would have half as many NCM debates if DC and its NCM-type characters had never been introduced. I personally think Dark Champions should be a sub-genre of Champions; basically just playing Champions with a bronze/iron age mentality but the same general power-levels.

I personally don't buy the concept that one particular city is more "gritty" so it must have less-powerful heroes and villains. I certainly have no problem with the idea that Dr. Destroyer has not interest in Hudson City, but it would not seem logical that someone like Warlord would not be interested in the goings-on of HC, especially when considering that he is a cold-blooded killer who is also a weapons dealer. I could also see all the mercenary-type villains (Utility, Mechassassin, Lazer, etc) also finding a home within HC. And what about Black Harlequin? Isn't he a cross between the Joker and Toyman? "Gritty" does not have to mean weaker. Batman is not weaker than Green Arrow because he works out of Gothan and GA works out of Star City.

I certainly have no problem with a grittier Gotham-like city in the CU, I love idea as a matter of fact. What I have a problem with is the power inbalance. Nighthawk should not be more powerful than the other heroes in HC when he shows looking for Mechassassin. The CU should have a consistant power-level. Not, for some unknown reasons, just happen to have a city where all the supers are greatly weaker than the rest of the world.

Originally posted by JmOz

I disagree Mon,

 

In Champs, IF YOU KNOW THE GENRE & HAVE THE TIME, all you need is 5th edition. If you don't have the time pick up CKC, if you don't know the Genre, pick up Champions.

 

If you need a setting pick up Champions Universe and Millenium CIty...

You can say the same thing about any game. If you know the fantasy genre all you need is the player's handbook for D&D. If you don't have the time pick up the Monster Manual. If you need a setting pick up Forgotten Realms (or any of the others put out by any other company).

WotC publishes material to make money, the same reason DOJ does. If you don't want to do all the work then you buy the material the companies publish. If you do want to do all the work yourself you don't. Ultimately it's that simple.

I think I read somewhere that 75% of the gamers use homebrew worlds. That means that 3 out of 4 perfer to do it themselves. There's nothing wrong with that.

I guess I would go back to my original point in this thread. If you think Hero is too complicated to do the work yourself, then buy the material so that you don't need to do all the work yourself. It's just sad to see people saying things along the lines of: Hero's getting too complicated for me. To which I respond: Hero is publishing books to take away the GM's workload. To which they respond: If I didn't want to do the work myself I wouldn't play Hero. That just seems like a Catch 22 to me.