Monolith

There is a fine line between what a comic character can do and what a game character can do. In the comics it makes for a interesting panel if Storm destroys a Sentinel with one shot. In the game it would not be much fun if everything your character fought was defeated with one hit. The game needs to attempt to emulate the genre but still make for a fun challenge for the players as a whole. So while Storm can beat the Sentinel with one shot (and it might also make sense that a Sentinel is vulnerable to electricty), in the CU Lightning Storm might require 5-6 hits to accomlish the same thing on a Minuteman.

There is also power level design to take into account. If you want one-hit Sentinels then you just make them weaker. You do not necessarily need to make the heroes stronger.

The mystic telport thing is a fairly simple thing to do with Mega-Scale, easily within the concept of a 350 point character.

Originally posted by Killer Shrike

They may not be ninjas, but who knows how many CSL's Surtur has to throw into DCV?

Hopefully about 20 Levels just to offset his size penalties.

Originally posted by Agent X

He's also been the ultimate Norse God Warrior for how long?

Yeah, but for the last 3,000 years he's been fighting trolls and giants. Not exactly nimble opponents.

Originally posted by Agent X

Well there you go. Metaphysician was riffing off of Champsguy's post that stated that a Marvel Conversion would give Thor 14 Skill Levels between Hand to Hand and Hammer. I think those Hammer Skill Levels would be 5 pointers too based on the versatility of the Hammer - meaning +21 stun... if you used the Marvel Conversion.

Ah...

I try to stay away from broad-based conversions. I have a feeling that the old Marvel game suffered as much from stat inflation as some aspects of Champions did. It was just something to do with that time period.

When it comes to Thor and Combat Levels I'd need to ask myself just how good of a combatant he is. Most of the people Thor fights tend to be big, slow, and highly invulnerable. Those types of battles do not really dictate that Thor deserves additional bonuses to hit. I don't believe Thor could punch Spider-man any easier than I could.

I look at it this way: If Thor lost his super strength and invulnerability and was only as physically powerful as Captain America do I think Thor could outfight Cap? IIRC correctly Thor had Unearthly Fighting and Cap only had Amazing. I personally think Cap would beat the crap out of him.

Originally posted by Agent X

I was replying to your reply to Champsguy... I believe?

I was replying to Metaphysician. I don't know how many Combat Levels his Thor has.

Originally posted by Agent X

That's still 21 extra stun.

Well maybe your Thor has 14 Combat Levels but I'm sure mine doesn't.

• Defender will become a Gadgeteer.

• Ironclad will become a Energy Projector as he learns to do super-breath and other STR feats.

•Nighthawk will stay the same. He just likes who he is too much.

• Sapphire will gain some mental powers when she learns that the sapphires she has been wearing are psionically empowered.

• Witchcraft will become the Archmage, and as such will be able to do anything she wants.

Originally posted by Gary

The funny thing is that even with the hammer, he fights people like Hercules and Absorbing Man merely to a standstill. If Thor and Hercules have basically the same str and the hammer provides lots of extra HA, then Thor would crush Herc every time with the hammer. That simply doesn't happen. The two of them are merely competitive, with Thor having a slight edge. I doubt very much that the hammer gives him more than 4d6 or so HA.

I can remember when Hercules used to have a magic gold mace.

I think mjolnir does add more damage to Thor than what a club would. In my games Thor has a 95 STR and gets +10d6 from mjolnir. Having Thor do the same general damage as Dr. Destroyer does not seem unreasonable to me.

I'd also point out that comic characters, unlike game characters, generally do not go around using full-strength attacks. I doubt that both Thor or Superman seldom have a need to do more than 15d6 in their comics. In the game the players would be doing full-strength attacks with every hit.

Originally posted by Metaphysician

I don't wanna even think about the level of HA thats on Mjolnir. I can easily see Thor cracking 30d6 with the hammer, *without* using levels. . .

Keep in mind that using Levels does not increase Damage Classes in superhero games. In supers games each 2 Levels used increases the damage by either +3 STUN or +1 BODY.

Originally posted by Killer Shrike

I understand that you are just throwing out comparisons for sake of example, but IIRC Collossus is not substantially weaker than the Thing. They are in the same general STR range AFAIK.

The last time I saw a copy of the OHotMU I believe Thing was listed 80-85 tons and Colossus was listed at 70 tons. Considering that your top number is around 100 tons a 10-15 ton range is substantial there, just as there would be a big difference between Joe Normal and Spider-man.

As I've said in other posts, I use Marvel's STR Chart as only a "who's strong than who" guideline. What you need to do is establish baselines and then build from there.

I ped Hercules as 100 STR and Thor as 95 in my games. That's my top baseline. My bottom baseline is Heroes like the Beast at 35 STR or Spider-man at 45 STR. Then I follow the Marvel STR Chart from there.

Hercules

Thor

Wonderman

Thing

Submariner

non-Enraged Hulk

Colossus

ect.

If I peg the Thing at 80, and Colossus is substantially weaker than the Thing, then I need to put Colossus around 70. It doesn't matter what the Marvel or HERO STR Charts say because they were not designed to work together. As I have also said before, no one was more surprised than the Marvel writters when they produced the OHotMU and everyone saw how strong the heroes they had been writing were.

Originally posted by Jhamin

Mechanon is not human in any way, but doesn't have any of the automation rules. He can be stunned, but because of the SFX of his powers (I'm a Robot!) he would be immune to Bloodstone. It's no different that Spiderman ignoring mutant nullification attacks, cause he isn't a mutant.

I think "bleeds" is a open-ended term. Mechanon might not bleed "blood" but if you are using the bleeding rules in your game then Mechanon would "bleed" energy or pieces of whatever is inside of him. Hydrolic fluid for all I know.

Ironclad might not bleed red blood but perhaps he bleeds mercury. Mechanon might bleed energy. Takofane might bleed insects, etc.

As far as Bloodstone goes each GM would need to determine if his power is only associated with blood or with any blood-like fluid within a body. Would you expect him to be able to affect insects, for example, even though they do not have red blood? I don't know. I'd need to make that decision when it came up at a game table.

Originally posted by Metaphysician

And yes, 350 points *isn't* powerful. Its roughly the level of the New Mutants or early Teen Titans. You shouldn't expect it to be something more. If you wanna play high powered, than play 500 or 750 points.

I think I could build all the Giant-Size X-Men (the most popular team of all time) with the exception of Wolverine (and possibly even Wolverine as he was introduced at that time) for around 350 points.

I certainly don't think 350 point characters are weak. It wasn't that long ago we were playing with 250 point characters. Granted a 350 point character isn't a member of the JLA but he's not a New Muntant or Teen Titan either, IMO.

Power level is all relative to the write of a comic book character. In some issues Superman can take a nuke, in others it all but kills him. So who's to say which written version is correct? Can Grond survive a 20d6 RKA nuke (write-up from Star Hero)? No, but he's not designed to withstand it. Perhaps you are putting more design consideration into Grond than the authors are? Grond is not supposed to be "Mr. Invulnerable." He's supposed to be the mindless raging beast. Ripper, on the other hand, assuming the armor activates would only take 12 BODY from that 20d6 RKA on average. He'd be knocked out (just as superman was in Darknight) and recovering but it wouldn't kill him.

Part of the problem that many people might be having is that we just haven't seen any really tough heroes for CU yet. We've seen the tough villains but no heroes to stand up to them. The "bad-asses" are out there though.

And I don't see any "disconnect." If you have a problem with the STUN lotto then just say all "real" weapons do a maximum of x3 STUN multiplier. I personally like the randomness of the combat system. I never liked games which did fixed damage with an attack. I never liked games with absolutes. The randomness has made for hundreds of interesting table situations. Laughing when Mega-Brick rolls the 6 ones and a total of 31 STUN on his 15d6 attack. It's also great to remember when he rolled 74 STUN. The randomness makes the recollection. There would be nothing interesting for me to remember if Mega-Brick always did 45 STUN with each attack.

As far as your Superman/car example, As others have stated, I too just consider this to be casual STR, which for Supes in my game is around a 58. Can a 58 STR stop a car going 10 MPH? Without a doubt.

As far as tricks, I have allowed bricks to use a mega-throw with a power skill roll. Basically the mega-throw is one level of Mega-Scale on the brick's STR to determine extended range for throws. So if the brick can throw someone 10" in the game he can throw them up to 10 km with the mega-throw.

I believe the Does Not Bleed power is only for Automations. So based on that I must assume that everyone bleeds. Looking at Ironclad's origin I would assume only his skin is tough.

LoM is the BEST book I ever purchased from Hero Games. I love that book. I can't even express how much I love that book. That's why I'm not that enthused about Pulp Hero; because I know it will be a pale shadow of what Aaron has already written in LoM. Some of the write-ups seem primative by 5E standards but the material in that book is pure gold.

I've never run a pulp game (no gamers I know are interested in the genre) but if I were going to run one I would use LoM as is. I love that book!

Originally posted by Marcus Impudite

I suppose you're right, at $9 a pair you can't expect too much. So you're saying a high-end pair of cuffs like the police use would give a minus on the Lockpicking roll in locked mode? How big a modifier?

In restraint mode I'd consider it to be Lockpicking +3. In locked mode I'd consider it to be Lockpicking -2. The round key used by police is more difficult to simulate with picks than a standard lock. Of course extra time offsets that, but you would have behind the back penalties in most cases as well.

IIRC the handcuffs are 3d6 and +3 DEF. There are many people who either due to drugs or just raw power have broken the chain in handcuffs as well. There was even a documented case where someone broke out of two sets. Maybe that is the a Lockpicking SFX?

Originally posted by Marcus Impudite

Anyway, Roger gets alot of emergency pages from couples in the area who are into the -ahem- kinky stuff and have an uncanny talent for losing or misplacing their keys. On every call he's told me about thus far he always manages to open the cuffs that easy, so if Monolith is right about the restraint mode/locked mode I guess they just don't know how to lock'em properly.

First off, sex-cuffs are not the same things that what the police use. Secondly, most people do not know you can insert a screwdriver into the chamber to open the cuffs. They think they need the key to open the catch lever. But when the cuffs are secured and then locked they cannot be upen by a screwdriver.

Originally posted by RPMiller

Would you feel less affronted if I were to writeup some Campaign Guidelines on how to increase the power levels of the various NPCs in the back of the book, or do you think that is something that you can handle just fine on your own for your own campaign setting?

I'm quite capable of making my own character adjustments, thank you. My problem is with Mark and the tone and nature of his replies. Instead of just saying that the San Angelo line uses a lower-than-average standard for its super-powered characters Mark would rather just tell me that the villains are not really weak, because they are not really meant to be fought. They are NPCs not villains in the normal sense.

I don't plan on buying any more San Angelo material. There are four other companies going to be producing licensed Hero material this year. I'll support them instead.

Originally posted by Marcus Impudite

Restraint mode and locked mode? That's interresting, I'll have to ask him about that.

Restraint mode is when the handcuffs are just closed around the hand and you hear the clicks. That can be opened by inserting something up the handcuff and forcing the compression lever open. You can then pull the pivit bar out. Locked mode is when the officer inserts the key into the handcuff and locks the compression lever so that it cannot be forced open with a screwdriver. At that point you would need Lockpicking or a saw to get out of the handcuffs.

Any time an officer actually arrests someone they are required to put the handcuffs in locked mode. Of course the police do not normally allow people in restraint mode to handle or carry screwdrivers.

Keep in mind that handcuffs are not simple to get out of if they have been locked. Most of the time people are detained in handcuffs in the restraint mode not the locked mode. The restraint mode can be "jimmied" by using any long, reasonably-flat device like the screwdriver mentioned above. In locked mode nothing short of a saw will get them off.

Originally posted by KA.

Okay, I am not trying to take sides in the ongoing argument, but I do have a question:

 

What else do you call characters controlled by the GM, other than NPC's or Non-Player Characters?

A NPC is the banker, the reporter, the chef at your favorite diner. People the characters interacts with who like and hate them but they are not expected to have superhero/villain conflicts with on a regular basis.

A villain is an adversary, someone the players are expected to interact with in a physical confrontational way. Ultron is not an NPC for the Avengers. Ultron is an enemy of the Avengers.

As far as what ticked me off, it was me making an honest statement that the villains of the book are underpowered for a standard Champions game and then Mark coming back and telling me they aren't villains, they're NPCS the players will be interacting with. He's trying to justify their lower-power by saying they are not really villains designed to fight the heroes (even though their descriptions say they are), but in fact they are really just like the local reporter or other normal. It's just stupidity. Anyone who reads comics or plays the game knows what the villains are there for, and it's not so the heroes have someone to play poker with on a Saturday night.

I just use the Flash modifiers from FREd. Just because someone cannot see does not mean they are out of the fight. Let the Flashed foes hit a few of the player's teammates by accident, or even some innocents on the side of the combat with a stray blast or two. Make the players defend the innocents from the blind machine gun shooter. Then the players will have a tendancy to use peer pressure to make the troublesome player conform. I'd also introduce a few Flash villains to the game. Let Mr. Flash be blind for a turn or two and see how much he likes it.

And if he's a whinner, then hit him again. There's nothing better than listening to a whinner whine.

Originally posted by Metaphysician

What *does* 4e Solitaire's Ult Mentalist writeup look like?? Did she get a VPP??

No, her Vril powers were just part of a big Multipower. 87 points IIRC.

Just to add my voice to everyone else's, Angel's Flight (due to his wings) is Foulable/Restrainable. If you grab Angel's wings he cannot fly away. Superman's Flight, without the Limitation, means that he can fly up even if someone is holding him. His Flight is not "foulable" in any fashion.