Monolith

Re: Re: Metropolis & Gotham

Originally posted by Champsguy

Actually, Alan Scott lives in Gotham, too.

Let's not forget Jason Blood/Etrigan either.

Originally posted by Greatwyrm

Sure, stuff like the USPD and FHG help, but there's still a lot of front-end work for a GM looking to start up a game.

I guess I never really think about the work involved when starting a Champs game. I figure for about $140.00 I can buy everything I need to play a Champions game (HERO System 5th Edition, Champions Universe, Millennium City, and Conquerors, Killers & Crooks), or for about $20.00 less I can buy what I need to run a D&D game (Player's Handbook, DM's Guide, Monster Manual, Forgotten Realms). It seems like both games to me require the same amount of work to get going. It seems to me that the only things really left in making a campaign beyond that point are to make adventure ideas (short-term and long-term) and to think about signifigant NPCs for the characters to interact with throughout the game.

It really seems to me that when you throw in USPD, or FHG, or the upcoming G&G and vehicle book that all the work has been greatly reduced. There doesn't seem to be hardly any work left in gaming, other than making signifigant npcs and adventures for the game.

Re: Metropolis & Gotham

Originally posted by Kzinbane

Same thing could easily be true in the Champions universe. It's not that supers cant operate in Hudson city, there just isn't enough going on there to really justify them. I mean Thor or Green Lantern spending all their time chasing petty theives, druggies, bank robbers, gang members and the like?

If there's enough activity in Hudson City to justify a 256 page "Enemies" book (bigger than CKC) then there would be enough activity there to justify the Champions, Sentinels, and Justice Foundation being there on a regular basis as well.

Originally posted by Korvar

I think "Dark Champions" as a name should apply to supers, rather than "normal" folk like SWAT and spies. I liked the "Danger International" name, actually

I think DOJ decided to stick with Dark Champions because it's already trademarked, thus no reason to re-register it. It's also a recognized commodity, though I think the name will confuse most buyers as they'll be expecting to see a book about low-level supers, not a genre book about Normal Hero.

Originally posted by Korvar

This is the old, "Why is there a Gotham if there's a Metropolis" problem, isn't it?

Basically yes.

The problem with Champions and Dark Champions is that they use two different power-levels. In the "normal" CU super-soldier-man has most Characteristics above 20. In the "dark" CU super-soldier-man will mostly likely have no CHA over 20, or at least probably not more than one over the NCM. So Nighthawk in "dark" CU is radically weaker than Nighthawk in the "normal" CU. That inbalance frustrates me and throws the flow of the game off to me because you cannot mix-and-match. You can't take the Champions into Hudson City because they are too powerful and you can't bring most Hudson City heroes (outside of Harbinger) into Millennium City for a crossover because they are too weak.

In my mind you might as well make Hudson City an alternate dimension rather than deal with those continuity inbalances (assuming that 5E DC will be similar in power-level to 4E).

Originally posted by Korvar

As an aside, if Dark Champions is dealing with SWAT, James Bond, etc., which supplement will be dealing with street-level supers?

I believe the two supplements on the 2004 schedule (Hudson City & Predators) will both be for street-level super though they will be broad enough to be used in an SWAT or espionage-type game.

I assume the genre will be expanded with a "super-spy" or "urban military" sourcebook next year, in much the same way that Star Hero and Fantasy Hero both have 2 campaign books, if it proves of interest to the fans and to DOJ. I don't know how popular Danger International was so I really cannot comment on what might be forthcoming.

Originally posted by Metaphysician

The sticking point would be Hudson City, and why its so different from other cities, and lacking in public high-end superheroes. I'm sure *some* explanation could be whipped up, like a local oddity in the mana level or something.

There's a mystical energy siphon deep beneath Hudson City. It's existence is known within the mystic community but no sorcerer has been willing to tempt fate and enter the city to discover the reasons. Even the enigmatic Witness has avoid the area.

All superhumans entering the area decrease in power-level over a relatively short period of time. Even more surprising is the fact that the superhumans do not seem to realize that their powers and physical prowess has been reduced by the siphon. The citizens in general seem oblivious to the idea that their heroes are less powerful then beings like the Sentinels or popular Champions.

Originally posted by Lord Liaden

He is?! Where? I didn't see him in the Champions Universe book itself.

He's mentioned in Hudson City in the sidebar on page 80. I did not include him in the Superhero pdf as I was unsure how the CU and the DCU were designed to fit together.

Originally posted by TheImperialKhan

So, is Harbinger going to make it into Dark Champions this time around?

 

Based on the blurb in "Our Products" I'd guess not, he really doesn't seem to fit very well any more. But around here you can never be sure.

I'm not sure if HoJ will make it into Dark Champions or not, but keep in mind that DC is a genre book along the lines of Fantasy Hero or Star Hero, not a campaign book. DC deals with the entire "normals" genre. Everything from SWAT teams to James Bond to low-level supers. My guess is that HoJ will make it into the Hudson City campaign book, which, IIRC, deals with the low-level supers stuff.

I had a player buy a "sleep" spell by using Transformation. The character was transformed into a sleeping character for one hour, at which time he turned back. I thought it was funny and let him use it (2d6 Major Transform, Continuous). The 6 END used until the character was transformed (18 END on average used) more than made up for the fact that the spell was powerful.

Well first off it's in genre for the villain not to kill the captives. He must taunt and torture them with information about his master plans first. Plus he might think the pcs have information which he can use for some grand caper. Maybe they know something about a missing mystic artifact, or maybe he wants codes to their base computer so he can use it to infiltrate the Champions base. Maybe BP just wants the captive heroes to see how great he is as he accomplishes his goal in the module. He does love to gloat and torment prisoners afterall.

I'd maybe think about having the mentalist take over the captive sacrifice and then have her quickly free one or more of the captured heroes with the dagger. Then let the fight ensue again.

They come up on eBay quite often. I'd check there first.

Originally posted by Alcamtar

I don't normally hang out on RPGnet but don't like to ask critical questions where the game designer hangs out, and felt that the opinions around here would tend to be pretty positive anyway.

I don't know if the opinions here would be "pretty positive." You'd be hard-pressed to find a Hero gamer who does not have a handful of house rules to fix some perceived problem.

I'd also point out that Steve and Darren hang out at RPG.net too.

Your basic statement seems to be that perhaps Hero has become too complex due to everything seeming to have many Limitations or Advantages associated with it now. In some regard I can agree with that. 5th Edition has taken the complexity of the game to a new level (and by adding all that complexity taken away some of the spontaneity).

But one thing which DOJ is attempting to do is take all the work out of your hands so that you don't need to worry about the Limitations or Advantages yourself. They've sold powers books, and spell books, and monster books, and upcoming vehicle and gadget books. DOJ is trying to take the game to the place where you don't need to do all the extra work yourself; it's already done for you and waiting in a book. For $25.00 your work load is over.

Do I think the HERO System should be less complex? Yes, I do. There are so many criss-cross rules now that even I'm seriously starting to think about switching over to the Sidekick rules when the come out. I still prefer the HERO System to other rules systems and I appreciate the amount of product support there is, even if I'm not interested in it all.

Originally posted by Killer Shrike

I know that it says that, but what -1/4 Limitation listed in the book actually does limit the character a quarter of the time?

 

A quick scan: Activation 15- certainly doesnt, Incant doesnt, Gestures doesnt, Delayed Phase doesnt, IIF doesnt, Power Cannot Be Bounced doest, Power Cannot Be Pushed doesnt, Beam doesnt, Power Does Not Work In Intense Magnetic Fields doesnt, Linked to a Constant Power doesnt, Restrainable doesnt, Visible doesnt.

If all of those Limitations are not limiting the character a fourth of the time then that's the GM's fault not the Limitations. The GM is supposed to impose the limiting factor into the game.

Now as far as Activation goes, it limits the character with every single use, because it can fail every single time it's use. Granted the randomness of Activation makes it unlikely to fail one fourth of the time but it can. Just last night I had a player in my game roll and 18 four times in a row. The player actually got up, went outside, and threw his dice into the woods behind our house.

Originally posted by Dr. MID-Nite

Off the record, how many baddies does KC have working for him?

There's KC, 5 villains, and his COIL agents.

Originally posted by Killer Shrike

As others have pointed out you can "pick up the slack" so to speak in other aspects of his powers. OIHID isnt a huge limitation -- its equivalent to a 15- Activation roll in value, and a 15- Power succeeds 95.4% of the time. So as long as OIHID hampers the character around 5% of the time you are probably "tracking" it ok in relation to other Lims.

From what FREd states (page 195) a -1/4 Limitation should hamper a character about a fourth of the time. That's probably a little more common that what Colossus ever experienced, except when he was fighting Magneto.

Originally posted by Steve Long

Before the complaints start, let me clarify: while one of the sub-scenarios does involve the Ultimates, for which you'd need CKC, we went out of our way not to require VIPER.

Steve, if you try to take our complaining away you take all the fun out of being on the message boards.

The Indirect Advantage states that the power is not invisible and that other characters can see that the character is generating the power, assuming they are looking in the correct direction.

You do use the Invisible Advantage to hide the fact that the power is coming from the attacker.

Originally posted by Agent X

You dont see Rick Jones slowing down the Abomination.

Never say never.

Originally posted by vivsavage

I can appreciate that, however the optional rules aren't realistic with regard to plate armor, IMO. I was just wondering what the rationale was behind limiting plate's effectiveness versus bashing weapons, even if it is optional.

I believe some of the rationale might be the fact that a bashing weapon would crush the plate into the person's body. Ringed-type mails would flow around the bashing weapon whereas the plate would stay concaved. I'm not saying this is the reason for the optional rule, but I do not that maces and the like were considered better weapons to use against a fully-armored knight than a sword. The mace could bash into and through the plate where the sword would slide off.

Originally posted by rjcurrie

Steve took one approach in Gadgets and Gear -- that does not mean that all other approaches are invalid.

I never said it was. There are 10 ways to do everything in HERO. Your 9 wrong ways and my right one way.

I actually tend to be one of the people who finds the "IDIC" ability of the HERO System to be a weakness. I'd much rather know what Captain America's shield is rather than have 50 different versions of it.

Originally posted by Chuckg

Given that Logan's adamantium claws cut *ANYTHING* except more adamantium and force fields, my own interpretation of them was that they were a Does Body NND (not vs. force fields or unbreakable) HKA.

There's a write-up for those claws in Gadgets & Gear. It's not done with an NND.

Just continuing my thoughts here... It's hard to determine at what power-level characters should be able to accomplish certain things. Not all 350 point characters are the same. Nighthawk and Ironclad are both 350 points but I'd rather fight Nighthawk than Ironclad any day of the week.

My own scale would be as follows:

200-250 points: New Mutants

250-300 points: Original X-Men

300-400 points: Giant-Size X-Men

400-500 points: Fantastic Four

500-750 points: Avengers

750+ points: JLA

Originally posted by Killer Shrike

Showing your age there Monolith

 

Sprite aka Arial has been known as Shadowcat for a while now

What can I say? I liked it when characters were simpler; before everyone became a ninja.

As I sit here and think about my many years of reading X-Men comics now I think I've come to the conclusion that Sentinels are really not that powerful. Cyclops can blow them to bits, Storm can blow them to bits, Wolverine can chop them up, Colossus to punch them down, even Sprite could short-circuit them. I don't think that the X-Men were all that powerful (as I said in another thread, I could probably build most of the Giant-Size X-Men on 350 points), I just think that the Sentinels are just not that tough.