Brian Stanfield

Yes, yes, a thousand time yes! I think the pool is a way to control this, if paired intelligently with the control cost. My complaint was that the Multipower has a built-in limit on how many spells can be active at any one time, while the VPP does not. I like the idea of a Multipower, but the VPP fits more with what I want: a cap of how many Active Points a spell can have, and how many spells can be fit into the pool. But the VPP potentially allows for all the spells to be active simultaneously. I think my best bet is to not focus on the spells themselves, but on the Endurance used by the spells. If I make the Endurance more precious, fewer spells can be maintained. I think it all works out in the wash with a VPP. But, does anyone have any experience with a Skill-based magic system?

My inclination is to say that what you say at the end is exactly the opposite of what I want. It's not a "memorization" thing that I'm promoting (I hate that part of D&D), but it is the idea that one must refresh one's memory when using "rusty" spells. Going with the "source code" example you give, I know that I have to look up the particulars in technical manuals all the time even though I already "know" what I'm doing. I'm trying to limit access to spells by suggesting that a wizard needs to refer back to the "bulky spell book" every now and then to remember the finer details of a little-used spell. In game terms, changing the VPP requires that the wizard spend time with the book to reallocate the pool. I think what you point out about the Multipower is what I was both drawn to and recoiled from. I like the idea of "once you know it, you know it," (contra the Vancian magic paradox) in the slots of a Multipower. What I don't like is that once you know them, they are all available. I want some limits on how many spells can be recalled and used at any one time. I know a lot of stuff, for example, but I have to look to my books quite often to remember some of that stuff. I started this thread trying to find a way to limit the slots of a Multipower, and how many can be used at a time. I don't think there's a way to do this without a bunch of ground rules, which I'm trying to avoid. I could put the Lockout limitation on spells, or give an arbitrary number of slots available, or something like that. But it seems to mechanical. The VPP seems to have the natural, organic limits in it that I want (the control cost), but if I want the wizard to have access to more than 2 spells, the pool needs to be big enough to allow for a group of spells. The limit on this, I think, would be a time limit to rearrange the spells (as I wrote earlier). Again, thanks for your input!

This is exactly what I'm struggling with, on a few points. I like your ideas! The Control Cost seems to be the real factor that I need to focus on (hence the name, "control" cost, right?). I think I want a VPP connected to each school of magic, and each school of magic connected to the Hero System Grimoire. If each VPP is limited to only spells from each school of magic, that puts a natural limit on things. At least at first. My idea is that they will "learn" new spells as the campaign grinds on, and add them to their spellbook. But the VPP will be limited in such a way that the pool can only be rearranged after conferring the spellbook for a day. I think this would limit the "just the right spell" problem. They can change their VPP pool, but only with spells already known. I'd like to also include a mastery level, connected to how many Experience Points they've invested into their skills, that allows them to begin to modify their spells, or even invent new ones. My ideal here is to prevent the spell caster from "inventing whatever, whenever." I want some structure, and some limits, but the ability to eventually outgrow them with "expertise." The prepared spellbook is how to avoid the "flying blind" problem of VPPs in real time game play. Thanks for your input!

Thanks for the footwork on this. My personal preference, however, is most definitely not Vancian magic. I'm trying to get away from that, in fact. But the more ideas, the better!

A lot of people use the Long Term Endurance rule for magic. I will either do an Endurance Reserve with the Double Endurance Cost (6e1 206), or use LTE as a way to limit spell usage.

How do you keep the costs down for your spellcasters? Doesn't it get out of hand pretty quickly for a beginner? Have you considered one of the Skill-based systems suggested in Fantasy Hero 6e?

So I'll be waiting for your new sourcebook with great anticipation . . . .

Point taken, but if the wizard can catch the fighter in the first phase, while there's still space to cover for a hand-to-hand attack, it becomes potentially very unbalancing. If the fighter is held or drained right away, he becomes virtually useless each phase thereafter while the wizard can still pump away with spells. This is admittedly an extreme example, but one we've probably all encountered before.

So let me re-frame my situation: I'm trying to teach Fantasy Hero to new players who are familiar with D&D and Pathfinder, but little else. I want to show them how endlessly flexible Fantasy Hero is by comparison, precisely because it doesn't have classes, levels, pre-determined spells, etc. The bulk of the rules are pretty easy to teach, but the "powers" are a bit mind-blowing to newbies who can't quite get over the super-hero theme. I'm trying to introduce them to a magic system that makes sense (and let me emphasize, the Vancian magic of D&D makes little sense). Spells, once learned, shouldn't be "forgotten" once used. In fact, it seems that just the opposite should be true: the more you use it, the better you know it. New magic using characters shouldn't be able to have a long list of spells to choose from, all of which, if uncapped, would be fairly powerful. Characters can choose to specialize in schools of magic, and I plan on using Hero System Grimoire for the basic "schools" of magic. They also should only be able to use the spells as they learned them. Only with experience will they be able to modify the spells with the Invention (spell research) Skill, or create new ones. They could also begin to buy off some limitations as they get more experienced as well. I'm thinking of the classic Harry Potter series: compare Harry in his first year to Dumbledore, for example, and how hard it is for the children to learn basic spells and then struggle with consistency. I'm also thinking of the battle between Dumbledore and Voldemort when they both used all kinds of spells, back and forth, building off of each other, but with a minimum of limitations like foci, gestures, incantations, etc. I don't want to recreate that system, but I'm thinking about how a beginner would look compared to a master. With that in mind, it seems like a VPP for each school of magic would work, represented by their spell book for each school. There should be lots of limitations, including a major time limit for rearranging the VPPs, and limited only to spells that have already been learned before, maybe even the lockout limitation on most spells so they can't cast too many at once. This hopefully represents the need, occasionally, to refer back to the text to brush up on certain details of spells in order to have them fresh in the wizard's mind. The lesser limitations could be bought off over time, so each spell could become more proficient for the user through experience. Also, each VPP should have a low control cost for beginners (say 30 or 40 points), and a low pool as well to limit the number of spells available. Both of these could be bought up over time with experience points, accounting for more powerful spells over time, and more of them available. But this will be a slow process since it will be bought with Experience Points. I'm also thinking the Invention (Spell Research) Skill can be purchased after "expertise" is achieved, although I haven't figured out this threshold yet. So, with all that being said, here's the rub I've been wrestling with: a balance between how many spells can be cast by a beginner, and maintained simultaneously (consider a shield of some sort that can be maintained while other attack spells are cast). The VPP runs a risk of allowing too many spells going on, as pointed out by Old Man and phydaux above. I was considering a Multipower instead, but it has a different problem because the reserve would need to be large enough to allow for some simultaneous spell usage. Also, a Multipower doesn't limit how many slots are available in the power, so a character could potentially have a list of 20 spells in each school, all of them available at will. I could limit how the slots are reallotted with time restraints, and the reserve will control how many slots can be activated, but then that severely locks down how many spells are available to the point where perhaps only one slot for each Multipower is available. I could adjust this so that they start out fixed, but then can be bought up to variable, but I'm not sure this solves much. I started this thread as a way to try to create a Multipower with some natural restraints like a VPP. It seems like maybe it's not possible to do that. I'm leaning back towards the VPP, but I'm also beginning to reconsider the virtue of a Skill-based magic system and just dropping all of the power framework nuance. Again, I'm trying to teach magic to beginners, and I want to keep this as simple as possible. Sorry for the long post. Any suggestions and insights would be useful!

You make a good point, but I'm thinking of a fairly advanced wizard who may face off with a fighter of the same points. Imagine a fighter entering a room with his great sword, ready to swing away as long as he has the END to spend. Imagine a wizard who can then cast a telekinesis spell of the same point value to hold the fighter in place, then cast a RKA of your choice (lightning?) at him, then casting resistant protection spell on himself so the fighter's rogue friend with a bow can't stop the wizard, and then hit them both with a speed drain, only to follow that with a fireball. This is obviously an extreme example, but a less powerful wizard with just the right spells is the bane of EVERY fantasy game, and needs to be reined in somehow. I'm just looking for some ways to do that with the rules as written, with as few house rules as possible.

This is exactly what I'm trying to avoid! I'm thinking, at the beginning, a very low control cost in a VPP so that the spells are less powerful, and a lower pool so that they can't have as many at once. They can keep their spells in a book, and then go refer to the book to rearrange the slots in their pool. Out of curiosity, have you used a different magic system with better success than a multipower?

Just out of curiosity, do you have any troubles with there being too many spells available with a Multipower spells system? How big is your reserve in such a construct? I'm trying to limit how many spells are available to cast on any given day, but I don't want to limit how many spells may actually be "learned" and written in a spell book. I'm thinking a VPP with a low control cost is probably the way to achieve this, and a limit on the pool itself extending the time for reallocating the pool.

I agree about avoiding the pre-approved list, although the HS Grimoire is a really useful template for spell schools and spell builds. I'm also trying to avoid a "level" system. I'd rather they be able to build up their spells organically according to their own interests, without the constraint of reaching certain levels. My feeling is that if I am a beginner, but want to specialize in fire magic, and especially a fireball (which is way over the initial cap I'll be using), then that I can put all my experience into that one spell's development as I gain experience. This is shortsighted, and pretty limited, for a magic user, but as a GM I want to have as much freedom as possible to avoid the D&D tropes of ability and spell levels, etc.

Point taken, but this seems like more of a problem for variable slots, not fixed slots. If the fixed slots are built with the reserve in mind, then they are going to be limited on when they can be used. I'll post a follow-up question that this leads to. This is probably what I'm going to do in the end. I think my concern over turning an adventure into a pyrotechnics show with too many spells flying around can be resolved with proper END rules. Perhaps using long-term endurance, or a limited endurance reserve with a long recovery period.

That's my feeling too. I think the extra time for reassigning the slots applies to the reserve, however. I looked at the VPP limitations for a hint on this, and think the -1/2 limitation for the "between adventures" limitation seems about right (as opposed to the -3 from the extra time table suggested in another post above).

For the record, the reason I've been looking at this power framework issue is because I want to simulate a learning curve for new magic users. I want to cap the power of the spells, and also how many are available at any given time. The VPP is great at providing a cap with the control cost, but because the pool is distributed among the Real Cost of spells, which are heavily limited, a character could potentially have a lot of fairly powerful spells available at any given time. A Multipower also gives a cap with the reserve, but each slot is based on Active Points,mwhich severely limits how many and how powerful the spells can be. A newbie could potentially have a lot of really simple spells available, which isn't all that unbalancing. If hey go for powerful spells then they will be limited. And if they are restricted at first to fixed slots, which can be bought up to variable slots later, it provides a built in progression for the magic users. The character could collect a bunch of spells as slots in the Multipower, but could only allot a few of them at any given time. If I limit the time required for reassigning the slots, that limits how many spells are available at any given time. A day of study ( brushing up on the details) will allow for a different selection of spells. I am still considering, however, a VPP for divine magic, since they (may) only have access to spells through prayer, not study, and so may not have a spell book. Of course, now that I think of it, I suppose there could instead be a prayer and ritual book instead of a spell book. Hmmmm . . . .

That's pretty much what I've come up with, except for the extra time limitation. The way I understand it, that has to do with the casting time: for a -3 limitation you'd have to take a day to cast the spell. I followed the VPP limitations for changing slots, where 1 day would be -1/2.

By the way, I got a response from Steve Long on the rules forum, and it was so unbelievably simple! I just didn't step back far enough to see it!

I wish I could figure out how to quote only part of your post. Anyway, this comes from the opening description of Multipowers, 6e1, page 402, column 1, at the very top: "He may change the distribution of reserve points from Phase to Phase, but because the powers in the Multipower share the reserve points, a character cannot use all the powers in his Multipower at full power at the same time." I appreciate your points. I think maybe you're right: I just need to use VPP. What my concern is is that it doesn't limit the number of active spells in the way a Multipower does. Here's what I want to accomplish: I don't want a Vancian magic system, nor a level based system. The reason I started Hero system in the '80s was that it specifically didn't have these things. But I've had a lot of time ff and am trying to remember everything again. I love 6e, and will read every page, but it's a task! Anyway, I love the idea of a power framework attached to a spell book. It never. Are sense to me in D&D that a brilliant wizard wouldn't be able to "remember" a spell after casting it. If you know it, you should know it. But I also don't want to have all known spells available at all times. It seems more reasonable to have a collection of spells ready to use after referring to the spell book. For example, I use technical books all the time, and know what's in them, but I need to look up the finer details at times to remember. I'm trying to mimic this. Magic should be studied and learned, but not always remembered for an unlimited time without frequent use. A Multipower would make all known spells available at all times (which I don't want), but the reserve limits what can be used. All spells can't be used at the same time (as in the quote above). I'd rather have that arrangement but with moveable slots like in a VPP so that there are some spells fresh in memory which can be used frequently, but not all at once. However, as has been pointed out, it seems that endurance costs alone will limit now many spells can realistically be used at once. So back to the VPP I go.

Good point about changing from one to another power framework. I'm going to think on that. As for the blue text in the quoted material, I'm still reading at as a limitation on a VPP which makes it resemble a Multipower. I'm wondering if here's actually a way to adjust a Multipower to have changeable slots. I guess this would be an advantage, even if it took extra time, etc. I'm not sure yet without a ruling on the slots. It's not an issue of them being variable as opposed to fixed . . . Or is it? Are there limits to how variable a slot is? Can it be completely rewritten if it's variable, or only used at an adjusted power level of what's alrleady written?

First off, good point about the 3AP slots. It's possible, I guess. But I'm coming from the perspective of the RAW, which explicitly say that all the slots cannot be simultaneously active. I guess there's always a way around that, eh? As for this second part, I guess that's my question: can a Multipower actually be changed once built? Or is this a benefit that is unique to a VPP?

Excellent point about the endurance. As for Lockout, that is a good option but I'm not sure it's what I'm looking for. As a rule I don't want to completely make it impossible to use multiple spells, so I wouldn't want to apply it to the entire control cost. I'm thinking in terms of the ground rules at this point.

The VPP already has a limit built into the pool. Say, for example, a pool of 50 points and a control cost of 40 points for a beginner. If the slots had a real cost of 8 points you could have 6 spells available. This works great as a limiting factor. But what I'm trying to avoid is a character who will have all 6 spells active at once. Maybe I'm overthinking this too much, but a Multipower explicitly limits how many spells are usable at any given time.

I posted this in the general rule questions. Hopefully Steve Long will have a simple answer for me. In the meantime I thought I'd open a discussion here while I wait for an answer. I've read a lot of the discussions about magic systems in a fantasy setting, and I had developed a VPP magic system where each pool represented a spell book from a specific school of magic. Changing the pool would be limited to extended time, conferring the spell book, spell research skill roll, etc. The advantage is that a VPP has a natural cap on the number of spells available. A spell book may contain many spells, but only the "prepared" ones are available. The more I thought of it, though, I began to reconsider this. The way the rules are written, a VPP is designed to allow multiple spells be active simultaneously (the real cost of the spells cannot exceed the pool). I want more of a limit on how many spells can be active at one time. So it seems like maybe a Multipower would be a better option. So, here's my question: Is there a way to allow for changing the slots of a Multipower in the same way a VPP is done as above (extended time between adventures, access to spell book, etc.)? For example, changing the slots of a Multipower based on fire magic: one slot is a fireball, another is a fire shield, and another is burning hands; after an adventure it seems like maybe a spell slot offering life support protection against cold might be more useful, another slot with flash, and another with a fire beam. Let's assume the point costs are equivalent. The reason I'm thinking a Multipower is a better approach is because it limits the number of spells available at any one time. I really like how flexible a VPP is, but it assumes that all the spells can be active at once. The slot structure of a Multipower is more restrictive in a way I prefer. There'd have to be some sort of slot limit introduced, perhaps a function of INT, so only a limited number of spells are available. But I just can't figure out how to manage changing the slots like is possible with a VPP. Without this feature, all the spells in the spell book would always be available in a Multipower, which is too unbalancing. In comparing VPP and Multipower, my rationale is this: in trying to balance the power of magic, I want to limit the number of spells available at any one time. The VPP has a natural limit built into the number of slots based on the real cost of each spell, but they are all hypothetically available simultaneously, which is potentially very unbalancing. The Multipower doesn't have a cap on the number of slots available, so all spells in a spell book would be available, but it is impossible to use all the slots at once (by definition). If I could limit the slots in a Multipower it would limit the number of spells someone has available to them, so they would have the balancing effect of having to switch them out like in a VPP (by consulting the spell book). And there is also the restriction on how many slots could actually be allotted. There may be an obvious solution, but I can't figure it out. Any ideas?

I've been experimenting with different magic systems for a fantasy campaign, and had (until recently) settled on a VPP to represent a spell book for each school of magic, with the limitation that the pool could only be rearranged with access to the spell book, limited to a particular school of magic, with extended time for study. On further reflection it seems like a Multipower may better simulate what I have in mind because I'm not concerned with having many spells available to use simultaneously. My question is this: is there a rule for rearranging the slots of a Multipower between adventures in a way that simulates preparing different spells from a school of magic (as in the VPP above)? For example, this adventure I may have a fireball, a fire shield, and burning hands as my slots, but next adventure I'd rather have a withering heat blast, life support protection from cold, and a flash attack. Assume all the point costs are the same for this example so there would be no cost variations. Is this possible in the rules as written? My rationale is this: in trying to balance the power of magic, I want to limit the number of spells available at any one time. The VPP has a natural limit built into the number of slots based on the real cost of each spell, but they are all hypothetically available simultaneously, which is potentially very unbalancing. The Multipower doesn't have a cap on the number of slots available, so all spells in a spell book would be available, but it is impossible to use all the slots at once (by definition). If I could limit the slots in a Multipower it would limit the number of spells someone has available to them, so they would have the balancing effect of having to switch them out like in a VPP (by consulting the spell book). And there is also the restriction on how many slots could actually be allotted. Sorry for the length. This has been vexing me for a while!